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The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction
- Thread starter Ceridwen018
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Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
dharveymi,
First you say that sinners are sentenced to eternal life as punishment (#2) and then you state that god doesn't allow them to live but destroys them (#4). Which is it?
As far as Adam and Eve go, it doesn't matter whether they thought it was worth the cost or not. They gained immense knowledge and became superior to the animals regardless.
Your policeman/son analogy isn't entirely applicable because god knowingly destroys whereas the policeman didn't know any better and most certainly wouldn't have shot if he did.
Also, you haven't said anything of heaven. If eternal life is hell, then what is heaven?
First you say that sinners are sentenced to eternal life as punishment (#2) and then you state that god doesn't allow them to live but destroys them (#4). Which is it?
As far as Adam and Eve go, it doesn't matter whether they thought it was worth the cost or not. They gained immense knowledge and became superior to the animals regardless.
Your policeman/son analogy isn't entirely applicable because god knowingly destroys whereas the policeman didn't know any better and most certainly wouldn't have shot if he did.
Also, you haven't said anything of heaven. If eternal life is hell, then what is heaven?
#2 was given as a reason for #4. God does not let evil last forever.
Adam an Eve where superior to the animals anyway, as we are now. Do you really believe that a knowlegde of the experience of ingesting cyanide is worth it? Then why don't we all do things that lead to our demise, are we stupid? If this knowlegde is so valuable, why don't we all pursue these kinds of self destructive behaviors.
I could have easily devised as story where the son was threatening innocent people, the father recognized them, and shot anyway, to protect the innocent people.
I've tried to make it perfectly clear that hell does not last forever, that evil is destroyed and then the world is made new, as God intended it before the flood and before sin.
The wicked are destroyed in Hell, they don't burn eternally. God takes no pleasure in punishment. Hell will only last as long as it takes for all evil and wickness to be destroyed.
The Bible talks of no more death, sorrow, pain, running without being tired when it speaks of heaven.
Adam an Eve where superior to the animals anyway, as we are now. Do you really believe that a knowlegde of the experience of ingesting cyanide is worth it? Then why don't we all do things that lead to our demise, are we stupid? If this knowlegde is so valuable, why don't we all pursue these kinds of self destructive behaviors.
I could have easily devised as story where the son was threatening innocent people, the father recognized them, and shot anyway, to protect the innocent people.
I've tried to make it perfectly clear that hell does not last forever, that evil is destroyed and then the world is made new, as God intended it before the flood and before sin.
The wicked are destroyed in Hell, they don't burn eternally. God takes no pleasure in punishment. Hell will only last as long as it takes for all evil and wickness to be destroyed.
The Bible talks of no more death, sorrow, pain, running without being tired when it speaks of heaven.
People will not know the truth except when they know the wrong.
for example:
i will not know the important of water except when i will be thirty.
so to know the truth, must know its opposite.
if i believe in a specific religion for example and i believe that it is the truth, i can not be sure that it is the truth except by reading other religions.
i hope you can understand what i mean.
Hadeka.
for example:
i will not know the important of water except when i will be thirty.
so to know the truth, must know its opposite.
if i believe in a specific religion for example and i believe that it is the truth, i can not be sure that it is the truth except by reading other religions.
i hope you can understand what i mean.
Hadeka.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Hey very good and interesting posts all.
Perhaps we need to look at the following questions: 1) Can a perfect, all knowing, all powerful God create a perfect universe? 2) If He can, why doesn't He?
I have studied the Bible, I have heard preachers, ministers, priests, and teachers adress this question in many, many different ways. All of the reasoning I have heard, however, merely sidesteps the issue. I hear arguments such as "if God created a perfect universe where evil is impossible, there would be no free will and we would all be robots". This argument merely sidesteps the issue, because in a perfect universe we would not be robots, so this argument only serves to suggest that a perfect universe is impossible altogether (even for God).
Remember, there is supposedly a place called heaven in the afterlife that is perfect....arguing that in a perfect universe we would all be robots is basically saying that there can be no heaven, because in any theoretical heaven we would all be robots, and in that case heaven would not be perfect....and therefore it would not be "heaven" at all.
This is one of the main reasons it makes a lot more sense (in my personal opinion) to look at the universe as it is--an incomprehensibly huge and mysterious thing which we only partly understand, which contains good, bad, and reasons behind each...reasons which do not necessarily include the existence/actions of an infinite, perfect, all knowing, all good, all powerful sentient being.
Perhaps we need to look at the following questions: 1) Can a perfect, all knowing, all powerful God create a perfect universe? 2) If He can, why doesn't He?
I have studied the Bible, I have heard preachers, ministers, priests, and teachers adress this question in many, many different ways. All of the reasoning I have heard, however, merely sidesteps the issue. I hear arguments such as "if God created a perfect universe where evil is impossible, there would be no free will and we would all be robots". This argument merely sidesteps the issue, because in a perfect universe we would not be robots, so this argument only serves to suggest that a perfect universe is impossible altogether (even for God).
Remember, there is supposedly a place called heaven in the afterlife that is perfect....arguing that in a perfect universe we would all be robots is basically saying that there can be no heaven, because in any theoretical heaven we would all be robots, and in that case heaven would not be perfect....and therefore it would not be "heaven" at all.
This is one of the main reasons it makes a lot more sense (in my personal opinion) to look at the universe as it is--an incomprehensibly huge and mysterious thing which we only partly understand, which contains good, bad, and reasons behind each...reasons which do not necessarily include the existence/actions of an infinite, perfect, all knowing, all good, all powerful sentient being.
Apparently some have not read the whole book and have relied on others view of things, there is not one mention of saved people going to heaven at anytime. Eternal life is offered to those who believe and obey, those who do not are promised judgement and a second death. Only the beast, the false prophet and satan are consigned to tartaroo/everburning hell being tortured day and night forever. Unless you are one of those three forget about eternal anything, with the exception of those who call upon the name of the Lord and become obedient servants of the living God, washing themselves and preparing for the New Jerusalem. No unclean thing shall enter the gates of the city.
Oh, By the way the perfect world will be the New Jerusalem, this world is to prepare for the next, all part of the master plan. Populated by tried and tempered Godly Beings.
Oh, By the way the perfect world will be the New Jerusalem, this world is to prepare for the next, all part of the master plan. Populated by tried and tempered Godly Beings.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Ronald,
You're contradicting yourself here. First you say that saved people don't go to heaven, and then you say that those who accept Jesus are given eternal life. Which is it gonna be?
The master plan, eh? Didn't catch anything about that one when I was reading the bible.
You're contradicting yourself here. First you say that saved people don't go to heaven, and then you say that those who accept Jesus are given eternal life. Which is it gonna be?
The master plan, eh? Didn't catch anything about that one when I was reading the bible.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
dharveymi,
They were only superior in that god 'loved' them more. Other than that they were as simple-minded as animals.
Absolutely! Otherwise I might eat cyanide thinking it's ok and die. Because of other people's past experiences however, I know it's harmful.
God didn't intend for the world to be without sin and evil, otherwise don't you think he woulda made it that way from the start?
And anyway, even if he changed his mind and now all the sudden wants evil out--what's he waiting for? The second coming? :lol:
They were only superior in that god 'loved' them more. Other than that they were as simple-minded as animals.
Absolutely! Otherwise I might eat cyanide thinking it's ok and die. Because of other people's past experiences however, I know it's harmful.
God didn't intend for the world to be without sin and evil, otherwise don't you think he woulda made it that way from the start?
And anyway, even if he changed his mind and now all the sudden wants evil out--what's he waiting for? The second coming? :lol:
Ceridwen018 said:
Nothing going on that is not the will of God. Maybe, you need to to spend more time in the Bible, with new eyes. Because it's there! "Master plan" are my words. Seek the kingdom, seek the truth, all things will be added.
Ronald's paraphrase. Shalom Aleichem/Peace unto you
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Ronald,
Ok, paraphrase, I can deal with that.
I would advise that you seek the truth before you seek the kingdom though, therefore only seeking the kingdom if the truth leads you there.
Anyway, you didn't answer my question. Do 'saved' people go to heaven (eternal life) or not? We've already established that eternal life is hell, but then again, you all seem to think that being destroyed is bad too.
Ok, paraphrase, I can deal with that.
I would advise that you seek the truth before you seek the kingdom though, therefore only seeking the kingdom if the truth leads you there.
Anyway, you didn't answer my question. Do 'saved' people go to heaven (eternal life) or not? We've already established that eternal life is hell, but then again, you all seem to think that being destroyed is bad too.
I am not used to the format, and did answer your question in the post, it looks like your info.
But, here it is again, EternalLife=Going to heaven? In whose Bible? No such thing can I find in the Bible. Commentaty! Oh, yes! Precepts of men! Bible, The saved have eternal life HERE in the renewed Earth.
I'm still learning. Something to be said for an old man. Beating my own drum.
No brag, just fact.
But, here it is again, EternalLife=Going to heaven? In whose Bible? No such thing can I find in the Bible. Commentaty! Oh, yes! Precepts of men! Bible, The saved have eternal life HERE in the renewed Earth.
I'm still learning. Something to be said for an old man. Beating my own drum.
No brag, just fact.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Ronald,
You said that there's nothing that says anything about going to heaven, and then you said 'Eternal life is offered only to those who believe and obey'. That's a contradiction.
You said that there's nothing that says anything about going to heaven, and then you said 'Eternal life is offered only to those who believe and obey'. That's a contradiction.
Your scenario does not speak of disobedience at all. Growth happens in children regardless of obedience or disobedience. My father taught me not to smoke, I believed my dad and obeyed. I grew, I experience the loss of my smoking aunts from cancer, I continued to obey. I continued to grow, I know a lot about smoking now, I still find no reason to smoke, but I have plenty of reason to love my father, I am fully grown.
It is a very foolish child that requires personal experience to learn and grow. I also do not believe that any of my friends or siblings that disobeyed my father would argue.
It is a very foolish child that requires personal experience to learn and grow. I also do not believe that any of my friends or siblings that disobeyed my father would argue.
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
dharveymi,
Now hold up just a moment--you made a very interesting point. The experiences of having your aunts die due to smoking related illesses is an experience based on 'disobedience' or in this case smoking, which allowed you to grow--not just literally.
You see, 'disobedience' doesn't have to affect your body or mind personally for you to see it and learn from it, and I think we'd all agree that without it there's nothing to learn and therefore no growth.
Now hold up just a moment--you made a very interesting point. The experiences of having your aunts die due to smoking related illesses is an experience based on 'disobedience' or in this case smoking, which allowed you to grow--not just literally.
You see, 'disobedience' doesn't have to affect your body or mind personally for you to see it and learn from it, and I think we'd all agree that without it there's nothing to learn and therefore no growth.
Do you really believe that people are on par with animals. Which animals create literature, study history, build bridges, contemplate God, and a million other things? Do you just enjoy being arguementive?
Concerning the ingesting of cyanide, if one where to choose not to ingest it because of someone else's experience (or more likely the instruction concerning someone elses experience, because very few people, personally, know anyone who has every done such a thing,) he or she is being obedient. He or she is accepting the word of another by faith. This is the definition of obedience not disobedience. No disobedience is required for obedience; a chemical analysis (or the word of God) can reveal the danger of a particular substance and can serve as the witness to which any wise man or woman could choose to be obedient. Thank you for so aptly illustrating my point.
Concerning how God made the world, He did make it without sin and evil from the start. God does not change his mind; he does not want anyone to be disobedient or for evil to exist, but as I have explained earlier, it is more important for Him that we love Him freely.
What is God waiting for? God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should have eternal life. He waits for His people to perfectly reveal His character, that the world might see that He was right and choose Him. When all have the evidence and have chosen, He will come.
P.S. Hell is not eternal life. It's not funny anymore, give it up. Satan and all the wicked will be destroyed once and for all at the end of the world, never to live again.
Concerning the ingesting of cyanide, if one where to choose not to ingest it because of someone else's experience (or more likely the instruction concerning someone elses experience, because very few people, personally, know anyone who has every done such a thing,) he or she is being obedient. He or she is accepting the word of another by faith. This is the definition of obedience not disobedience. No disobedience is required for obedience; a chemical analysis (or the word of God) can reveal the danger of a particular substance and can serve as the witness to which any wise man or woman could choose to be obedient. Thank you for so aptly illustrating my point.
Concerning how God made the world, He did make it without sin and evil from the start. God does not change his mind; he does not want anyone to be disobedient or for evil to exist, but as I have explained earlier, it is more important for Him that we love Him freely.
What is God waiting for? God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should have eternal life. He waits for His people to perfectly reveal His character, that the world might see that He was right and choose Him. When all have the evidence and have chosen, He will come.
P.S. Hell is not eternal life. It's not funny anymore, give it up. Satan and all the wicked will be destroyed once and for all at the end of the world, never to live again.
Ceridwen018 said:
What does Eternal Life have to do with Heaven? (in scripture)
What do you find contradictory in the statement?
No one has ascended into heaven but he who who descended from heaven, the son of man. Jn 3:13
Mortal man can not spend an eternity (anywhere) until he is granted one by God, believe and obey and be granted everlasting life. No where do you find (go to heaven) in scripture!
You are hard to understand!
Ronald,
Let me see if I can help you.
Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."
The righteous will go to heaven, the Bible is quite clear.
Let me see if I can help you.
Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."
The righteous will go to heaven, the Bible is quite clear.