1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ceridwen018, May 24, 2004.

  1. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    There are three basic truths which are shared by almost all religions and faiths:

    - god is all powerful
    - evil exists in the world
    - god does not want evil to exist

    Obviously, all three of these truths cannot simultaneously exist. If god were all powerful, and opposed to evil, he could simply do away with it. If he was against evil, and yet evil still existed, he would not be all powerful. Two of these statements can be true, but not all three.

    Soooo, what's your take? ;)

    **I'd like to ackowledge Mr. Spinkles-- he's the one who first infiltrated me with this 'meme', hehe**
     
  2. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Well, I certainly didn't come up with it myself! I think Deut said that this is called "The Problem of Evil". It's been debated for quite a long time now.

    There was a thread on this topic already, but it sort of burned out...this will be a good way to get more people back into this discussion.
     
  3. canadianhorsefan

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    22
    Ratings:
    +0
    All three can exist. Let us restate them:

    Allah is powerful. Evil exists because a Jinn decided to disobey Allah, who is known as Iblis, Shaitan, Satan, the Devil, you choose. :goodjob: Now, of course, Allah hates evil, but Shaitan asked that he corrupt humans. Allah agreed, banished him, and is going to destroy him at the end of the world.

    The End.

    canadianhorsefan
     
  4. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    If Allah did not want evil to exist, he wouldn't have agreed to allow Shaitan to corrupt humans. :killme:
     
  5. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    If Allah did not want evil to exist, he would not have agreed to allow Shaitan to corrupt mankind. :killme:
     
  6. Rex

    Rex Founder

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,971
    Ratings:
    +374
    Religion:
    I won't tell
    If there were no evil how would we then know what good is? You must have something to measure by.
     
  7. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Ratings:
    +607
    But since god is supposedly solely good, and all powerful, he could make a world in which we wouldn't need evil to know good. Therefore, god cannot be solely good.
     
  8. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    That would mean that god is not all powerful, because he is unable to get rid of evil without getting rid of good. The "Trinity" still stands! :fight:

    **also, sorry about the double post--could you delete one of them for me Rex? I don't know how**
     
  9. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    It's burn out because you don't believe. How can you believe in a trinity that contradicts the sayings of Jehovah God in the Old Testament.There was no trinity at creation.

    Harry
     
  10. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Ok Spiritual Son,

    We aren't talking about the supposed 'trinity' of god, Jesus, and the holy spirit, so you can forget that. What I meant by using the word 'trinity', is certainly related to that in a sense (referring to three things which are supposed to coexist, but cannot), but it is a separate topic altogether.

    Also, you are correct in pointing out that we (I assume you mean Mr. Spinkles and I) do not believe the 'trinity' can exist, however, the entire reason for this thread is so that people like you can give us reasons that show us it can. Perhaps the other conversation fizzled out because no adequate answers could be provided.
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Rex,

    I absolutely agree with you on a certain level, that good cannot exist without evil, for it is the opposite of something which defines it. However, there are three aspects to this trinity: good, evil, and god. So, if we have established that good and evil must exist, then the only thing left to question is god. Just a thought.
     
  12. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    Before the world was created this Trinity was not. After creation, when Jehovah God the Creator became incarnated under the name Jesus Christ the Divine Trinity was formed.

    These three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are the three essentials of one God, and they make one as soul,body and operation make one in man. Every person has a trinity in them.

    Ours is human,and the Lord's is Divine,as in Paul's Col 2:9," For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

    The Divine Trinity is not made up of persons,as the church sees it. The Divine Trinity in the Lord is the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.

    Harry
     
  13. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Spiritual Son-- that isn't what we are talking about.

    This is what we are talking about:
    The following three statements cannot simultaneously be true-- 1. evil exists 2. god is all powerful 3. god does not want evil to exist
     
  14. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    Since this related to the truth about God, I will join in.

    God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence.

    It is plain from the first chapter of Genesis that everything created by God was good. It says there that 'God saw that it was good' (verses 10, 12, 18, 21, 25), and at the end 'God saw everything that He made, and behold, it was very good' (verse 31).

    It is also plain from man's primeval state in paradise. Evil, however, arose from man, as is plain from Adam's second* state, that is, after the fall, by his being expelled from paradise.

    It is clear from these facts that if free will in spiritual matters had not been given to man, God Himself, and not man, would have been the cause of evil; in this case God would have created both good and evil, and it is wicked even to think that God created evil too.

    The reason why God did not create evil, since He bestowed on man free will in spiritual matters, and never puts any evil into his mind, is that He is good itself, and in good God is omnipresent, continually urging and demanding to be received.

    Even if He is not received, still He does not go away. For if He did, man would instantly die, or rather dissolve into non-existence, since man gets his life, and the continued existence of all he consists of, from God.

    Evil was not created by God but introduced by man, because man turns the good which continually flows in from God into evil, by turning away from God and turning towards himself.

    When this happens, the pleasure given by good remains, but it now becomes the pleasure given by evil.

    For without an apparently similar pleasure being left man would cease to live, since it is pleasure which makes up the vital principle of his love.

    These two pleasures are still diametrically opposed, though a person is unaware of this so long as he lives in the world.

    After death, however, he will know this and indeed feel it plainly, for then the pleasure given by the love of good is turned into heavenly blessedness, but the pleasure given by the love of evil into the torments of hell.

    These arguments prove that everyone is predestined to heaven, and no one to hell.It is the person who commits himself to hell by misusing his free will in spiritual matters.

    As a result he embraces the ideas wafted from hell, since, as was said above, everyone is held mid-way between heaven and hell, so that he can be in equilibrium between good and evil, and consequently have free will in spiritual matters.

    Harry
     
  15. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    In the Christian world it is wholly unknown that heaven and hell are from the human race, for it is believed that in the beginning angels were created and heaven was thence formed.That the Devil or Satan was an angel of light, but having rebelled, he was cast down with his crew, and thus hell was formed.. It is a matter of the greatest wonder to the angels that such is the belief in the Christian world, and still more that nothing is really known about heaven, when in fact that is the primary thing of doctrine in the Church.

    The devil and satan was not created by God.

    Harry
     
  16. Alaric

    Alaric Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    313
    Ratings:
    +5
    Spiritual Son,

    By what standard do you judge whether God's acts were good or not, or whether He has ever inspired evil or not? It's circular reasoning to say that God's acts are good because God can only do good.

    Why didn't God create man with free will and without evil in the first place? Why not have a world full of Jesus-types?

    Do you think everyone is in an equal position to be good?

    If God didn't create evil but man did, then surely God either didn't know the consequences of what He was creating, or didn't want to stop it; and surely this also means that He is not omnipotent?
     
  17. Mr Spinkles

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    10,985
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Alaric makes a good point Spiritual Son. If God didn't want evil to exist, he would not have allowed man to bring it into existence.

    Besides, not all evil is created by our free will-- earthquakes and famine, for example.
     
  18. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    SpiritualSon,

    That is very interesting. Who did create the devil then? If the devil was always 'just there', like you would say god was, is he not just as powerful as god? Perhaps they created this world together, and the idea we have of it all being the work of god is just a bunch of bunk. Maybe that is why evil and god coexist, because god doesn't have the power to override his peer, the devil.

    Alaric and Mr. Spinkles have good points. You say that god created humans. You also say humans are evil. Then you say that god creates nothing which is evil. People, we have another trinity! Seriously though-- humans may not have been evil in the onset, and as you said, through their 'free will' they chose to eat the forbidden fruit which led to them becoming 'evil', aka, having knowledge (soon they'll be dancing!! :eek:mg: ). However, my argument here is that god created that human nature and 'free will' which made them eat the fruit. God either knew exactly what he was doing and wanted it, or he didn't have a clue and simply sat there doing the worlds biggest, most heavenly knuckle bite.
    :lol:
     
  19. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Ratings:
    +0
    Divine Providence.
    Providence is the government of the Lord in the heavens and on the earth. The Lord, from providence,rules all things according to order,and providence is government according to order. He rules all things either from will or from leave,or from permission.In various respects according to man's quality. Providence acts invisibly.

    Most things which are done from providence appeal to man as contingencies. Providence acts invisibly, in order that man may not be compelled to believe from visible things, and that his free-will may not be injured.

    For unless man has freedom he cannot be reformed, he cannot be saved. The Divine Providence does not regard temporary things which soon pass away, but eternal things.

    They who do not comprehend this, believe that opulence and eminence in the world are the only things to be provided, and call such things blessings from the Divine, when nevertheless they are not regarded as blessings by the Lord, but only as means conducive to the life of man in the world.

    That those things are regarded by the Lord which conduce to man's eternal happiness. They who are in the Divine Providence of the Lord, are led in each and all things to eternal happiness.

    They who ascribe all things to nature and man's own prudence, and nothing to the Divine, do not think or comprehend this.

    The Divine providence of the Lord is not, as believed in the world, universal only, and the particulars and single thing dependent on man's prudence.

    No universal exists but from and with single things, because single things taken together are called a universal, as particulars taken together are called a general.

    Every universal is such as the single things of which it is formed, and with which it is. The providence of the Lord is universal, because existing in the most single things; confirmed from heaven. Unless the Divine Providence of the Lord were universal, from and in the most single things, nothing could subsist.

    All things are disposed by it into order, and kept in order both in general and in particular. How the case herein is comparatively with that of a king on earth.

    Man's own proper prudence is like a small speck of dirt in the universe, whilst the Divine providence is respectively as the universe itself. This can hardly be comprehended by men in the world. Because many fallacies assail them, and induce blindness.

    The quality of the Lord's Divine Providence with respect to evils. Evils are ruled by the Lord by the laws of permission,and they are permitted for the sake of order.

    The permission of evil by the Lord is not that of one who wills, but of one who does not will, but who cannot bring aid on account of the urgency of the end, which is salvation.

    To leave man from his own freedom to think and will evil, and so far as the laws do not forbid, to do evil, is to permit. Without freedom, without this permission, man could not be reformed, could not be saved, may be seen above in the doctrine of Freedom.

    The Lord has providence and foresight, and the one does not exist without the other. Good is provided by the Lord, and evil foreseen.
    There is no such thing as predestination or fate. All are predestined to heaven, and none to hell.

    Man is under no absolute necessity from providence but has full liberty, illustrated by comparison. The "elect" in the Word are they who are in the life of good, and thence of truth.

    How it is to be understood that "God would deliver one man into another's hand" (Exod. 21:13).

    Fortune, which appears in the world wonderful in many circumstances, is an operation of the Divine providence in the ultimate of order, according to the quality of man's state.This may afford proof, that the Divine providence is in the most single of all things. This operation and its variations are from the spiritual world, proved from experience.

    Harry
     
  20. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    Harry,

    Ok, I am sorry, but I'm getting a little tired of this. That last post had absolutely nothing to do with anything ever mentioned in this thread at all. If you want to preach, please do so in the thread about the New Church which you created for that exact purpose. Here, we are interested in debating. Everyone already knows what your opinion, (excuse me, 'truth'), on pretty much everything is, so if you could cut the crap and get down to business answering our simple questions, that would be grand.
     
Loading...