The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction

[Ronald]

Therefore! Where I am, you may be also. He is going to be standing in the Holy Temple on Mt Zion. The New Jerusalem will descend from heaven. Voi'la your room in the Fathers house. OH! yes the Bible is quite clear.
We do read it differently, Don't we?

 

[dharveymi]

I don't deny that one day the Holy city will decend. But the question is when? Does this represent the second or the third coming? If you would like to read a summary of what happens after the second coming, read Rev. 19-end.

Paul describes what happens at the second coming quite well:

"...For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord...." I Thes. 4

 

[Ceridwen018]

dharveymi,

Do you really believe that people are on par with animals. Which animals create literature, study history, build bridges, contemplate God, and a million other things? Do you just enjoy being arguementive?

What I said was that before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life they were on par with animals. It is only after that that they gained the potential knowledge to do the things you mentioned above.

Concerning the ingesting of cyanide, if one where to choose not to ingest it because of someone else's experience (or more likely the instruction concerning someone elses experience, because very few people, personally, know anyone who has every done such a thing,) he or she is being obedient. He or she is accepting the word of another by faith. This is the definition of obedience not disobedience. No disobedience is required for obedience; a chemical analysis (or the word of God) can reveal the danger of a particular substance and can serve as the witness to which any wise man or woman could choose to be obedient. Thank you for so aptly illustrating my point.

I'm glad I got yours but you're still missing mine. If you are obedient because someone else was disobedient, then that disobedience is involved in and influences your choice, therefore making a choice based on disobedience. Do you understand that?

Concerning how God made the world, He did make it without sin and evil from the start. God does not change his mind; he does not want anyone to be disobedient or for evil to exist, but as I have explained earlier, it is more important for Him that we love Him freely.

That doesn't make any sense at all. I think we would all agree that satan is evil right? Well, god created satan didn't he? You can argue that when god created satan, satan was good, and then satan went around and created evil himself--but gos had to have created that special nature in satan that was capable of thinking up evil and then creating it. Also, god is all-powerful and all-knowing. He knew that the world would be introduced to evil before he made it, and so if he didn't want it, he should've taken precautionary measures.

Bottom line, god created evil becuse he wanted it in the world for whatever reason.

P.S. Hell is not eternal life. It's not funny anymore, give it up. Satan and all the wicked will be destroyed once and for all at the end of the world, never to live again.

Listen, I'm not trying to push something that doesn't matter--I just didn't understand you.

 

[dharveymi]

What I said was that before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life they were on par with animals. It is only after that that they gained the potential knowledge to do the things you mentioned above.

You have not demonstrated this, I regect it outright. There is no evidence that the unique capabilities of humans are the result of disobedience. On the contrary, disobedience has likely resulted in the loss of important capabilities.

I'm glad I got yours but you're still missing mine. If you are obedient because someone else was disobedient, then that disobedience is involved in and influences your choice, therefore making a choice based on disobedience. Do you understand that?

I understand it, but claim that it is not required. If people would have accepted the word of God as true, they would not have had to learn from experience. God provides ample warning of the effects of disobedience, but like rebellious children Satan and we disobey anyway.

He knew that the world would be introduced to evil before he made it, and so if he didn't want it, he should've taken precautionary measures.

God did take precautionary measures, he warned Satan of the results of disobedience, but he wouldn't listen, he was blinding by pride. Who are you to say that God didn't do everything short of forcing Satan to behave? Does that mean that God is not all powerful? If you want to see it like that, go ahead. I believe that instead, He is unchanging. He has stated His priorities, and will respect His creatures choices, regardless of the results.

Listen, I'm not trying to push something that doesn't matter--I just didn't understand you.

What is so hard to understand? God will one day do away with evil and its results, once and for all, when it is safe to do it.

 

[KBC1963]

They were only superior in that god 'loved' them more. Other than that they were as simple-minded as animals.

Hmmm I think not. GOD clearly didn't create man and animals the same.

Ge 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:26
¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

here it is shown that man was to dress the garden, which no animal can do and Adam is shown naming the animals which shows speach ability and thinking far beyond animal ability.

Ge 2:15
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Ge 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

when it is spoken about their eyes being opened it only meant open to understand good and evil

Ge 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Ge 3:6
¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Ge 3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

by looking further into the old testament we can find out exactly where wisdom and understanding come from.

Ex 31:1
¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Ex 31:2
See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
Ex 31:3
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Ex 31:4
To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Ex 31:5
And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Ex 31:6
And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;

as further proof of our intelligence being from GOD

Da 4:31
While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Da 4:32
And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Da 4:33
The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
Da 4:34
¶ And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

So we can easily assume from scripture that man was given many things from GOD to begin with and at those times when GOD seen man needing any type of understanding then it was given to them, the forbidden fruit thing only let man know evil which we can now see we could have done without.

 

[Ceridwen018]

dharveymi,

I understand it, but claim that it is not required. If people would have accepted the word of God as true, they would not have had to learn from experience. God provides ample warning of the effects of disobedience, but like rebellious children Satan and we disobey anyway.

But don't you see? Growth comes from experience--not from blind following! It's the difference between learning and just doing what you're told.

God did take precautionary measures, he warned Satan of the results of disobedience, but he wouldn't listen, he was blinding by pride. Who are you to say that God didn't do everything short of forcing Satan to behave?

Maybe he did do everything short of forcing satan to obey, but the fact that he didn't force him means that he allowed evil. If god isn't capable of forcing satan, then he is not all-powerful.

If you want to see it like that, go ahead. I believe that instead, He is unchanging. He has stated His priorities, and will respect His creatures choices, regardless of the results.

That's fine, but because he refuses to change, he is knowingly allowing evil. By having the power to stop satan and not doing it, he is allowing evil. I see what you're saying, and agree that god can be 'unchanging' and still remain all-powerful--if he has the power to changeif he wanted, that is.

KBC1963,

God created man in his own image and gave him dominion over all the earth, this is true. However, none of us can contest that Adam and Eve (and therefore the human race) gained knowledge and wisdom by eating from the tree of knowledge.

 

[dharveymi]

But don't you see? Growth comes from experience--not from blind following! It's the difference between learning and just doing what you're told.

You contradict yourself. You agreed that there is no inherant reason to injest cyanide, that "doing what you are told" is sufficient to learn and grow.

If god is not capable of forcing satan, than he is not all-powerful

Respectfully, you continue to confuse capability with willingness. God is more than capable, but at this time is unwilling.

 

[Ceridwen018]

"You contradict yourself. You agreed that there is no inherant reason to injest cyanide, that "doing what you are told" is sufficient to learn and grow."

I never said that. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

"Respectfully, you continue to confuse capability with willingness. God is more than capable, but at this time is unwilling."

I can accept this--that god is capable but unwilling. However, by not wanting to keep evil out, he does want to let it in, that's my point.

 

[dharveymi]

So you believe everyone should use cyanide so they can experience why they should not use it?

Because God is not willing to do away with evil at this point, does not imply that it was His will that it come into the world. That's illogical.

 

[dharveymi]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I don't think that everyone should try cyanide. What I'm saying is that we can learn from others' mistakes, and in fact it is impossible to learn without the mistakes of others.

God created evil, which means it was either part of his will or he just messed up royally and was too lazy to hit the 'undo' button.

 

[dharveymi]

Why is it that you or anyone would accept the word or experience of sinners instead of the One who made and loves you, is beyond me. Either way you are excercising faith, you have faith in sinners, I have faith in God.

God is not responsible for evil only in the sense that He created beings that could decide to love Him or not, but I won't confuse you with the facts anymore, it is clear that your mind is made up. Worse, you seen incapable of suspending your disbelief to consider another point of view.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Why is it that you or anyone would accept the word or experience of sinners instead of the One who made and loves you, is beyond me. Either way you are excercising faith, you have faith in sinners, I have faith in God.

And which of the authors of the Bible were free of sin? It appears Ceridwen is not the only one who has faith in the words and experiences of sinners.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I would like to add something: I hear a lot of talk about how everyone, even scientists, has to have "faith" in order to progress in their understanding of things. We humans are pattern seeking animals, and so as a result the way we understand things is by observing a pattern and then 'assuming' that this pattern will continue....so for example, we see the sun rise every single day--it is safe to 'assume' that this pattern will continue. Technically, we do not know, 100% for a fact, that the sun will rise for the billionth time as it always has (it could be some sort of huge, incomprehensible coincidence)....but after billions of times, justifying the assumption that it will rise becomes easier and easier.

The difference between beleiving that the sun will rise tomorrow and that the tooth fairy exists is that the former is a much, MUCH more justifiable assumption than the latter. There is such a thing as a degree of certainty....just because we can't technically be 100% certain about any one particular claim does not mean that all claims are equally justifiable and can be 'assumed'.

 

[sillygeezer10]

Hello I'm here to pull up the sword. If I don't succeed I will learn.
So,- God is all powerful.
-Evil exist in the world
-He don't like evil to exist. Right, here it go.

First, God is indeed all powerful.He is good and perfect. His power come from himself. Perfectness is power.
Satan have limited power and his power is to destroy lives. Satan is prideful, thus wickedness is weakness and limited. Logically God have all the power.
Evil is vanished with good. Good scald Evil with coals.
There is a thing called Free Will. Adam and Eve sinned out of temptation and free will. At the end of our world, all is saved and rencoiled to God, even the worse than dust sinners is saved. They repent out of free will.
God hates evil and he wish evil didn't exist. But he allowed it to exist to teach us lessons about Him and the world, then He will kill evil altogether. We could be easily as be robots knowing no evil but knowing only good and take it for granted. Satan take good away from us so we may strive for good. That is the test of our life to see the shine or grime in ourselves. God set it but do nothing but good while Satan do nothing but evil. We are to blame for it too. We give in to temptations once too often. But not to worry, God created good and sets us above anything that Satan can throw at. Hope this is right. But I will learn that Life is unfair but you will get a something out of it for once.

 

[sillygeezer10]

Hello I'm here to pull up the sword. If I don't succeed I will learn.
So,- God is all powerful.
-Evil exist in the world
-He don't like evil to exist. Right, here it go.

First, God is indeed all powerful.He is good and perfect. His power come from himself. Perfectness is power.
Satan have limited power and his power is to destroy lives. Satan is prideful, thus wickedness is weakness and limited. Logically God have all the power.
Evil is vanished with good. Good scald Evil with coals.
There is a thing called Free Will. Adam and Eve sinned out of temptation and free will. At the end of our world, all is saved and rencoiled to God, even the worse than dust sinners is saved. They repent out of free will.
God hates evil and he wish evil didn't exist. But he allowed it to exist to teach us lessons about Him and the world, then He will kill evil altogether. We could be easily as be robots knowing no evil but knowing only good and take it for granted. Satan take good away from us so we may strive for good. That is the test of our life to see the shine or grime in ourselves. God set it but do nothing but good while Satan do nothing but evil. We are to blame for it too. We give in to temptations once too often. But not to worry, God created good and sets us above anything that Satan can throw at. Hope this is right. But I will learn that Life is unfair but you will get a something out of it for once.

 

[dan]

I would like to add something: I hear a lot of talk about how everyone, even scientists, has to have "faith" in order to progress in their understanding of things. We humans are pattern seeking animals, and so as a result the way we understand things is by observing a pattern and then 'assuming' that this pattern will continue....so for example, we see the sun rise every single day--it is safe to 'assume' that this pattern will continue. Technically, we do not know, 100% for a fact, that the sun will rise for the billionth time as it always has (it could be some sort of huge, incomprehensible coincidence)....but after billions of times, justifying the assumption that it will rise becomes easier and easier.

The difference between beleiving that the sun will rise tomorrow and that the tooth fairy exists is that the former is a much, MUCH more justifiable assumption than the latter. There is such a thing as a degree of certainty....just because we can't technically be 100% certain about any one particular claim does not mean that all claims are equally justifiable and can be 'assumed'.

Excellent point. Is it faith to trust an assumption, despite the degree of certainty?

 

[(Q)]

So,- God is all powerful.
-Evil exist in the world
-He don't like evil to exist.

If your god is 'all powerful' he could simply eliminate evil with a 'flick-o-the-wrist' so to speak.

So, I guess he is NOT all powerful, is he?

 

[dan]

Well, if saying He "could" do something automatically obligates Him to do it, then maybe; but that's an absurd argument. God uses evil to fulfill His purposes. Evil helps us to grow and overcome. We come to be more like Him through evil.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

yes, but dan, if God is all powerful, he doesn't HAVE to use evil in order to fulfill His purposes--if God is all powerful, He can simply wave His hand and we will grow and be more like Him.

If God CHOOSES to use evil to fulfill His purposes, He isn't all good (good being the opposite of evil).

"Is it faith to trust an assumption, despite the degree of certainty?"
It is faith to trust an assumption that has a very low degree of certainty, yes.