The 'Trinity' of Religious Contradiction

[dharveymi]

Although I have not read all of the posts, let me take a stab at this. I believe that:

- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist

But that these are not the "ultimate truths", the most important truths. Let me put it this way:

1. God is love. (He desires the best for the creatures He has made, without condition.)
2. God desires to be loved freely as He loves.
3. God is holy. (Evil cannot exist in His presence.)

I realize that I am changing the subject, but answer these questions:

1. Because you are responsible for something, does it mean that you have caused it? (God is responsible for evil, but he did not cause it. Disobedience causes evil. God just created beings that could love Him freely.)

2. Because evil exists, does that mean that it always did, and always will? (God "must" allow evil for a time so beings can know the ultimate result of evil, and so it can be demonstrated that "evil" people can freely choose "good", so all will freely choose "good".)

3. Can evil be eliminated? (What would be its purpose once all have chosen? Once the principles of Satans government are fully demonstrated, and the principles of God's government have been fully demonstrated, what would be the purpose of evil?)

 

[Ceridwen018]

Hi dharveymi!

1. Because you are responsible for something, does it mean that you have caused it? (God is responsible for evil, but he did not cause it. Disobedience causes evil. God just created beings that could love Him freely.)

Whether you caused it or not, responsibility entails that you take the blame for something. If god did not cause evil, who did? If nothing happens without god knowing, that measn that god knowingly allowed something else to cause evil and didn't do anything to stop it.

What caused disobedience? Do you believe that god created everything? That means that he created disobedience, and therefore evil. If Satan created disobedience and evil, it is no different, because god created satan, and the inherent evil within him which made him rebel.

2. Because evil exists, does that mean that it always did, and always will? (God "must" allow evil for a time so beings can know the ultimate result of evil, and so it can be demonstrated that "evil" people can freely choose "good", so all will freely choose "good".)

Why do we need to know the ultimate result of evil? Everyone already knows that evil people can freely choose good, and yet not everyone is doing it. God's plan seems to not be working.

3. Can evil be eliminated? (What would be its purpose once all have chosen? Once the principles of Satans government are fully demonstrated, and the principles of God's government have been fully demonstrated, what would be the purpose of evil?)

Exactly. Evil is unecessary and has no purpose, so don't you think it's a bit sadistic for god to subject us to it?

1. God is love. (He desires the best for the creatures He has made, without condition.)

So why is evil present in the world? Is cancer his idea of 'the best'?

3. God is holy. (Evil cannot exist in His presence.)

Do you believe that god is omnicient? Do you believe that we can 'find' god everywhere and in everything around us? That would imply that everything is holy, which we know is not true. Where's the missing link in this?

 

[Christ Michael]

There are three basic truths which are shared by almost all religions and faiths:

- god is all powerful
- evil exists in the world
- god does not want evil to exist

Obviously, all three of these truths cannot simultaneously exist. If god were all powerful, and opposed to evil, he could simply do away with it. If he was against evil, and yet evil still existed, he would not be all powerful. Two of these statements can be true, but not all three.

Soooo, what's your take?

**I'd like to ackowledge Mr. Spinkles-- he's the one who first infiltrated me with this 'meme', hehe**

Only the first two statements of your 'trinity" are correct. Here is the explanation:

Evolutionary man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity. Man is slow to perceive that contrastive perfection and imperfection produce potential evil; that conflicting truth and falsehood create confusing error; that the divine endowment of freewill choice eventuates in the divergent realms of sin and righteousness; that the persistent pursuit of divinity leads to the kingdom of God as contrasted with its continuous rejection, which leads to the domains of iniquity.

The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion. Potential evil is time-existent in a universe embracing differential levels of perfection meanings and values. Sin is potential in all realms where imperfect beings are endowed with the ability to choose between good and evil. The very conflicting presence of truth and untruth, fact and falsehood, constitutes the potentiality of error. The deliberate choice of evil constitutes sin; the willful rejection of truth is error; the persistent pursuit of sin and error is iniquity.

[from The Urantia Book]



There is no denying that we live in an EVOLUTIONARY and EXPERIENTIAL creation. That is the NATURE of this time-space universe in which we live. There is NO original sin and there NEVER was. Perfection exists only on Paradise,but this universe of time-space, in which we live, couldn't exist if there were no contrasts. Ours is an eternal ascension towards God so that, through EXPERIENCE, we might get to know, understad and be like him.



Cheers

 

[dharveymi]

If nothing happens without god knowing, that measn that god knowingly allowed something else to cause evil and didn't do anything to stop it.

Or it means that He did everything possible, and still He was unsuccessful. Evil arose despite everything God did to prevent it.

What caused disobedience?... If Satan created disobedience and evil, it is no different, because god created satan, and the inherent evil within him which made him rebel.

Well, no. God created Satan with a free will. He created him with the ability and desire to be obedient, but also with the ability to be disobedient. Choosing disobedience however required that Satan rebel against every fiber of his being, but it was still possible.

Do you believe that god created everything? That means that he created disobedience, and therefore evil.

God created Lucifer, and angel of light, a covering cherub, higher than any angel. The Bible says the he was perfect in every way until "iniquity was found in him" If I give you a choice between something sweet and something poison, I tell you how good the sweet is and I tell you how bad the poison is, but you choose the poison, is that my fault? Now what if I told you that I made the poison? It was a biproduct of the sweet thing? Then is it my fault that you chose the poison? Obviously not.

Why do we need to know the ultimate result of evil? Everyone already knows that evil people can freely choose good, and yet not everyone is doing it. God's plan seems to not be working.

That's right. God's plan seems not to be working, but that doesn't mean that it isn't or that it can't.

Exactly. Evil is unecessary and has no purpose, so don't you think it's a bit sadistic for god to subject us to it?

God does not subject us to evil. Evil is just the natural result of disobedience. Sin has infected the very planet, people, animals, everything. Evil is just the natural result of that sin, but God loves us so much that he respects our choices even if it causes us and others great pain, but He will reward all deeds, both good and bad.

So why is evil present in the world? Is cancer his idea of 'the best'?

Evil exists to demonstrate how bad sin is, how righteous His kingdom is, and how wrong Satan was to say that his way was better.

Do you believe that god is omniscient?

Yes. I believe that He knows everything.

Do you believe that we can 'find' god everywhere and in everything around us? That would imply that everything is holy, which we know is not true. Where's the missing link in this?

I believe that God sits on a throne in heaven. I believe that he sustains everything by His spirit. He is not personally in everything even though He supplies the power which upholds it and is therefore aware of it. If God was personally in a sinner, that sinner would die, because God cannot behold iniquity. His presence is a consuming fire.

P.S. I think I agree (for the most part) with the quote from the Book of Urantia, although it pains me to say that.

 

[Ceridwen018]

dharveymi,

Or it means that He did everything possible, and still He was unsuccessful. Evil arose despite everything God did to prevent it.

So do you not believe that god is all-powerful? If he was, he would have been able to stop evil, but here you're saying that he did all he could and couldn't stop evil, so that implies lack of all-powerfulness.

Well, no. God created Satan with a free will. He created him with the ability and desire to be obedient, but also with the ability to be disobedient. Choosing disobedience however required that Satan rebel against every fiber of his being, but it was still possible.

The fact that god created disobedience in the first place raises a flag. We do not need the ability to choose evil to have free will, so to say that he created disobedience so satan could have free will is moot. God created disobedience because he wanted evil in the world for some reason.

God created Lucifer, and angel of light, a covering cherub, higher than any angel. The Bible says the he was perfect in every way until "iniquity was found in him"

Did the other angels have free will? Why did god make his most powerful angel the most prone to disobedience?

If I give you a choice between something sweet and something poison, I tell you how good the sweet is and I tell you how bad the poison is, but you choose the poison, is that my fault? Now what if I told you that I made the poison? It was a biproduct of the sweet thing? Then is it my fault that you chose the poison? Obviously not.

Haha, if only it were as cut and dry as poison vs. sweet! Going along with your analogy though, I would still have to disagree. If you are god, then you know what the person will choose even before you put the poison and sweet thing in front of them. If you go into it knowing that the person is going to choose the poison, why would you still offer it? Yes, you can say that god would be allowing free choice, but isn't he supposed to be looking out for us?

God does not subject us to evil.

God allows for evil to exist, and we are therefore subjected to it. God created the disobedient nature of humans, and so although it seems that we are really hurting each other, the fact that we have the capacity to hurt each other is directly linked to god. Therefore by transitive property of the pearly gates, god subjects us to evil.

Evil exists to demonstrate how bad sin is, how righteous His kingdom is, and how wrong Satan was to say that his way was better.

Well, if he did away with evil and satan, we wouldn't need anything to compare it to.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Christ Michael,

I'm not exactly certain of the point you're trying to make here. Because you don't agree with the third component, do you not think that god doesn't want evil?

 

[Christ Michael]

Christ Michael,

I'm not exactly certain of the point you're trying to make here. Because you don't agree with the third component, do you not think that god doesn't want evil?

Of course, God doesn't want evil !!! Please re-read my post(s) and you might be able to discern the "secret of the ages" as The Urantia Book is the fifth epochal revelation of TRUTH.



Cheers

 

[Orthodox]

Ceridwen,

You said:

So do you not believe that god is all-powerful? If he was, he would have been able to stop evil, but here you're saying that he did all he could and couldn't stop evil, so that implies lack of all-powerfulness.

What happens if God wants people to have the choice? Is it rational to assume that God (being all-powerful) could give someone a free will while only giving them one option to "choose". In other words, asking someone to pick their favourite colour out of a selection of pitch black pieces of paper. Are you saying that an all-powerful being can give us "free will" without anything to choose between?

We do not need the ability to choose evil to have free will

I assume that the "free will" you say exists outside of the "ability to choose good and evil" is primarily concerned with what someone decides is their favourite movie, colour, day of the week as you mentioned (along with Spinkles) a while back.

I don't think those type of "choices" can exist apart from the ability to choose between good and evil. The ability to choose good and evil seems to be the byproduct of what the Bible would call the "knowlewdge of good and evil". This "knowledge" (whether you believe it from God or nature) gives us the capacity to make value based judgments. I say that rape is wrong not because it violates any natural law (in fact it is really just the vehicle of choice for "survival of the fittest") but because it violates my moral system and is inheritantly wrong. Another value based decision of mine is my dislike of mondays. I dislike mondays because they come at the end of the weekend of leisure (which I say is a good thing) and usually mean a return to university and work (which incorporates stress, diffuculty and boredom -I say this is a bad thing). In the same way, when I say that a movie or a colour is my favourite I say so because I think it is the best in my choice range. The whole grading scale of baddest, bad, worse, better, good and best is all based upon an idea of what good and bad ought to be. Can you say that you choose your favouite things without considering which is best (ie. most good)? This "knowledge of good and evil", and the "free will" which ensues, is the foundation for our choices of our "favourite" things.

God created the disobedient nature of humans, and so although it seems that we are really hurting each other, the fact that we have the capacity to hurt each other is directly linked to god.

You cannot blame God for our evil actions. We can blame God for the creation of the atom (and all the atomic forces that keep the Universe stable as well) but not for the creation of the atom bomb. That bit was our fault.

Anyway, sorry to jump in. I hadn't looked at this thread in while and I couldn't help myself!

Orthodox

 

[Ceridwen018]

Christ Michael,

Evolutionary man finds it difficult fully to comprehend the significance and to grasp the meanings of evil, error, sin, and iniquity.

If this is true, then we must also find it difficult to comprehend good things.

The Gods neither create evil nor permit sin and rebellion.

If they, being the creators of everything, didn't create it, then who did? If they don't permit it, then why is it at large?

 

[Ceridwen018]

Hey Orthodox!

What happens if God wants people to have the choice? Is it rational to assume that God (being all-powerful) could give someone a free will while only giving them one option to "choose". In other words, asking someone to pick their favourite colour out of a selection of pitch black pieces of paper. Are you saying that an all-powerful being can give us "free will" without anything to choose between?

Think of it this way: If I were to choose to turn invisible, nothing would happen. Why? Because humans do not have the ability to turn invisible of course. Is my free-will hindered in any way in that one of my choices is impossible because the element doesn't exist? Technically, yes, but I survive well without it and exercise free-will in other areas. The same goes for evil. We don't need evil to have free-will. There are plenty of possible choices to be made within the realm of good.

I don't think those type of "choices" can exist apart from the ability to choose between good and evil.

And yet these choices can exist without the ability to turn invisible? Of course, yet think of all the extra choices you could make if you could turn invisible. Better yet, think of all the 'states of being' if you will, (ie, besides good and evil), that you can't even fathom because they don't exist. Do the lack of these affect your free will? You don't think so, because you've never lived with them.

You have never experienced these choices without evil. What it comes down to for me is this: If god were all-powerful, he could make free-will possible without evil.

You cannot blame God for our evil actions. We can blame God for the creation of the atom (and all the atomic forces that keep the Universe stable as well) but not for the creation of the atom bomb. That bit was our fault.

But god is the one who created our potential and desire towards evil actions. How is he not responsible?

Anyway, sorry to jump in. I hadn't looked at this thread in while and I couldn't help myself!

Hey, the more the merrier!

 

[dharveymi]

So do you not believe that god is all-powerful? If he was, he would have been able to stop evil, but here you're saying that he did all he could and couldn't stop evil, so that implies lack of all-powerfulness.

Ok. But, I still think it's a matter of perspective. I still think that He is all powerful, but that there are things more important than preventing evil. Evil is a temporary condition that is being overcome. If He where to not allow the possibility of disobedience at all, than we would just be robots, incapable of love or praise.

The fact that god created disobedience in the first place raises a flag. We do not need the ability to choose evil to have free will, so to say that he created disobedience so satan could have free will is moot. God created disobedience because he wanted evil in the world for some reason.

This is illogical on so many levels. Creating beings capable of free will, does not imply the creation of disobedience or its consequence, evil. There is no reason anyone should ever have chosen to disobey. God gains nothing by disobedience, instead he had to risk the life of His only Son because of it.

Did the other angels have free will? Why did god make his most powerful angel the most prone to disobedience?

Who said Lucifer or any being is prone to evil? I said the exact opposite. All of God's created "children" are created with a desire to please God. To disobey initially requires that a being violate their very nature.

If you go into it knowing that the person is going to choose the poison, why would you still offer it? Yes, you can say that god would be allowing free choice, but isn't he supposed to be looking out for us?

I am a parent. As babies, I "looked out" for my children all the time. As they got older, I give them more and more freedom. With that freedom, comes the resposponsibility to be obedient even though I am not there. With it, also comes the possibility that they might disobey. This does not make me a bad parent. It makes me a good parent, but when they get in trouble, I am still responsible, both morally and legally. It would be simply ludicrous to say that when they make mistakes, that I made them do it.

God allows for evil to exist, and we are therefore subjected to it. God created the disobedient nature of humans, and so although it seems that we are really hurting each other, the fact that we have the capacity to hurt each other is directly linked to god. Therefore by transitive property of the pearly gates, god subjects us to evil.

God did not create the disobedient nature of humans. We inherited that nature from our parents, it was the natural consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience. God created rocks; He created gravity. Therefore if someone steps off a cliff, God killed him? Come on! This is beyond illogical. It borders on pure and unadultrated stupidity.

Well, if he did away with evil and satan, we wouldn't need anything to compare it to.

We don't need Satan to be disobedient. We can manage that on our own. But, if He were to do away, with the wave of His hand, any knowledge of evil, what would guarentee that it would not arise again somewere else another time? No, Satan's charges must be investigated, and every being must decide.

Choose you this day who you will serve! If Baal be god, serve him. If the Lord, serve Him.

 

[Ceridwen018]

dharveymi,

If He where to not allow the possibility of disobedience at all, than we would just be robots, incapable of love or praise.

That remains to be seen, I think. There are plenty of things that god does not allow us to do, like turn invisible, for example, and yet we are not robots...although I'm sure some advanced alien species with invisible powers would think us so.

Creating beings capable of free will, does not imply the creation of disobedience or its consequence, evil.

I agree, but are you sure that you do? Here, you are saying that evil is not needed for free-will to exist. If free-will requires disobedience, then god created disobedience through free-will.

Who said Lucifer or any being is prone to evil? I said the exact opposite. All of God's created "children" are created with a desire to please God. To disobey initially requires that a being violate their very nature.

So what made Lucifer violate and no one else?

I am a parent. As babies, I "looked out" for my children all the time. As they got older, I give them more and more freedom. With that freedom, comes the resposponsibility to be obedient even though I am not there. With it, also comes the possibility that they might disobey. This does not make me a bad parent. It makes me a good parent, but when they get in trouble, I am still responsible, both morally and legally. It would be simply ludicrous to say that when they make mistakes, that I made them do it.

I agree. However if you are omnipotent, and know that your child is about to do something wrong, and if you also created that wrong thing that they were going to do, the situation changes.

God did not create the disobedient nature of humans. We inherited that nature from our parents, it was the natural consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

God gave them the ability to disobey.

Therefore if someone steps off a cliff, God killed him?

Technically yes. If a parent forgets to put up a screen in front of the stairs for their baby, and the baby falls down the staris and is injured or worse, it is the parent's fault. If god doesn't want anything to get killed by gravity, he needs to take the necessary precautions.

what would guarentee that it would not arise again somewere else another time?

Because evil is part of our nature, and he would be doing away with that part of our nature.

 

[Orthodox]

Ceridwen,

Think of it this way: If I were to choose to turn invisible, nothing would happen. Why? Because humans do not have the ability to turn invisible of course. Is my free-will hindered in any way in that one of my choices is impossible because the element doesn't exist? Technically, yes, but I survive well without it and exercise free-will in other areas.

Thats an interesting point there. But, wouldn't this be an example of the existence of free will and our inability to do put into action all the things it desires. Not being able to become invisible only demonstrates impotency (in the general sense....), this is definatley not a lack of free will. To give another example: If I decide that flying unaided (ie flapping my arms) is a good thing which I want to do then I have already employed my free will. Whether or not my desire is possible bears no relevance to the existence of my "choice". Given the option between walking and flying unaided I definativley choose the later whether or not it is actually possible.

The same goes for evil. We don't need evil to have free-will. There are plenty of possible choices to be made within the realm of good

I guess in a very dimminished sense there would be plently of different options but there would be certainly no personal preferences. In a world with no sense of good or evil nothing is better or worse than anything else. Everything just is. In fact, while there may be different ways of doing the very same thing (ie giving a present to someone) you will not have any choice in anything. You could not say that anything is better than anything else. Therefore you could never find a perfect present, nor could you even feel that it was good to give a present. You would have no sense of what is what. How can we understand the concept of fullness without knowing what emptiness is? How can you love something without hating its opposite? If you say you can love something without hating its opposite maybe you are really just indifferent to it? How can you love freedom (or even know what it is) without hating slavery?

What it comes down to for me is this: If god were all-powerful, he could make free-will possible without evil.

How can you love freedom without hating slavery? Free will is by definition the ability to choose between good and evil. in other words: choice between good and evil = free will. Goodness by itself doesn't mean free will, neither does badness by itself mean free will. You are really saying that if God were a real God he could chain us to a wall while still letting us run free. Does this make sense?

god is the one who created our potential and desire towards evil actions. How is he not responsible?

He created our potential but not our desire. If you save a baby from a burning house and then it grows up to fly planes into bulidings is that your fault? Well yes, indirectly anyway. Can the blame be placed primarily on you though? Of course not. It's the individuals choice to do good or bad. You, the rescuer, have just given the child a choice, you have not made it's decision for it.

I am always cautious in answering people when they ask me why there is such suffering in this world and why God hasn't resolved it . I have an uneasy feeling that when I get to heaven God may very well ask the same question of me.

well, over to you...

Orthodox

 

[Ceridwen018]

Orthodox,

Thats an interesting point there. But, wouldn't this be an example of the existence of free will and our inability to do put into action all the things it desires. Not being able to become invisible only demonstrates impotency (in the general sense....), this is definatley not a lack of free will.

So why can't the inability to be evil just be added to the list of things that exercise our impotency? I can tell you--if we were unable to perform evil, and could just make choices within good, we would think we had free-will because we'd never been exposed to anything else. I'm sure (well, maybe not sure) there are aliens out there who have access to even more states of being than just good and evil. Because we don't even know of them, they would see our free-will as incredibly hindered. "oh, you know those humans? They can only make choices withinn the realms of good and evil."

How can you love freedom without hating slavery? Free will is by definition the ability to choose between good and evil. in other words: choice between good and evil = free will. Goodness by itself doesn't mean free will, neither does badness by itself mean free will. You are really saying that if God were a real God he could chain us to a wall while still letting us run free. Does this make sense?

Uh-oh--I think we're getting into another 'is god logical' convo!

He created our potential but not our desire. If you save a baby from a burning house and then it grows up to fly planes into bulidings is that your fault? Well yes, indirectly anyway. Can the blame be placed primarily on you though? Of course not. It's the individuals choice to do good or bad. You, the rescuer, have just given the child a choice, you have not made it's decision for it.

But what if you knew the baby would grow up to fly planes into buildings before you saved it? Then it would be your fault, that's all I'm saying here.

 

[dharveymi]

Did you see the movie Minority Report? In this movie, it became possible to know the "future". But for those that did not know the future the question was always there, "Are you sure?" The question is, "Is God fair?" God knows where disobedience leads, but he must demonstrate to the rest of the universe that He does, so beings will not serve Him out of fear.

Concerning choosing between good things, that is not free will, because they are all within the will of the Father. In order for free will to exist, a being must be able to choose a choice outside of His will.

Concerning the difference between love and the ability to be invisible. The one has nothing to do with free will, the other is wholely dependent on it. A being that is not able to go against your will cannot really love you, that being is just a robot, at best a loyal servant.

 

[Runt]

I guess in a very dimminished sense there would be plently of different options but there would be certainly no personal preferences. In a world with no sense of good or evil nothing is better or worse than anything else.

There could still be variations in quality and preference in a world free of evil. Take a badly cooked chocolate cake vs a well cooked chocolate cake. Neither choice involves evil; both choices still exist regardless of whether or not evil exists (unless you consider cake evil... if evil ceases to exist then cake and anything evil will go away too).

Consider chocolate vs vanilla cake. Do you like one better than the other? Does this mean the one you don't like, the choice you chose not to make, is "evil"?

No, there are variations of quality and preference, not of morality.

You would have no sense of what is what. How can we understand the concept of fullness without knowing what emptiness is? How can you love something without hating its opposite?

You eliminate a binary pair (good and evil) and the universe doesn't just disappear. Think about it... only choices regarding good and evil disappear. Plenty of other choices remain that don't involve good and evil... red or blue shirt? Chocolate or vanilla icecream? Paper or plastic bag? Run or walk around the block? And so on and so forth.

 

[dharveymi]

The ability to choose between chocolate and vanilla is qualitatively different than the choose between obedience and disobedience. Both chocolate and vanilla are within God's will (in your scenario.) The definition of free will is the ability to choose something outside of your "programming," outside the Maker's design, contrary to His will. Choosing between two "good" things is not free will.

 

[Ceridwen018]

But choosing between two evil things is? I don't get your reasoning here.

 

[dharveymi]

Without the possibility of choosing something outside of God's will, free will does not exist.

 

[Runt]

Give me a break. The whole "evil exists so we can have free will" argument really does not check out...

Lets look at this:

You just said that the whole point of evil is to give humans the free will to act outside of God's will.

First, what is the purpose of this? To allow us to know good? Good is only important if evil exists to define it. No evil = no good, which means no loss at all. Objectively the ability to experience "good" is about as important as our ability to know luggenshump. Do you complain because of the lack of luggenshump? Do you notice its absense, and the effect of its absense on your life? No, you don't. It doesn't exist, thus it is not important to the workings of the universe.

Also, if evil gives us the ability to act outside of God's will, why is it the ONLY way we can act outside of God's will? All other possibilities are moot-- we don't have the free will to go against God's will and fly (except by manipulating the natural laws) and we can't draw a circle with angles. So why is evil the ONLY way we can go against God's will?

If free will is all about giving us the ability to do things outside of God's will, then tell me why we can't do these things. I want to fly just by thinking about it, but I cannot; God is interfering with my free will.

If God can take my free will away by preventing me from defying the natural laws, then he can take my free will away by preventing me from doing evil.