Tumah
Veteran Member
There is nowhere that the angel of G-d is G-d Himself. If it were, it could drop the "the angel" part. It is always an angel speaking on behalf of G-d.
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The Trinity in the OT (my belief)
I'm not Jewish. I don't speak Hebrew. But I know bovine excreta when I see it
Teritos
Active Member
G3056 - logos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV) (blueletterbible.org)
a word, uttered by a living voice
what someone has said
the act of speaking, speech
In John the Word of God is just the spoken Word of God, like the definition of Logos says.
Teritos
Active Member
There is a difference between an angel and the Angel of the Lord, The Angel of the Lord is the only angel appearing continually throughout the old testament referring to himself as the Lord and God in the first person, while the other angels mentioned in the scripture reference to the Lord God as a hallowed third person always humbling themselves and not accepting any type of glory.
Angel of the Lord - Wikipedia
logos | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica
"The idea of the logos in Greek thought harks back at least to the 6th-century-BCE philosopher Heraclitus, who discerned in the cosmic process a logos analogous to the reasoning power in humans. Later, the Stoics, philosophers who followed the teachings of the thinker Zeno of Citium (4th–3rd century BCE), defined the logos as an active rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo Judaeus (Philo of Alexandria), a 1st-century-CE Jewish philosopher, taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can apprehend and comprehend God. According to Philo and the Middle Platonists (philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of Plato), the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind."
This is basic Greco-Christian stuff. It's not a concept found in the Hebrew Writings. It's foreign. And it goes way beyond the basic meaning of the word 'logos'.
@Teritos
"The idea of the logos in Greek thought harks back at least to the 6th-century-BCE philosopher Heraclitus, who discerned in the cosmic process a logos analogous to the reasoning power in humans. Later, the Stoics, philosophers who followed the teachings of the thinker Zeno of Citium (4th–3rd century BCE), defined the logos as an active rational and spiritual principle that permeated all reality. They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo Judaeus (Philo of Alexandria), a 1st-century-CE Jewish philosopher, taught that the logos was the intermediary between God and the cosmos, being both the agent of creation and the agent through which the human mind can apprehend and comprehend God. According to Philo and the Middle Platonists (philosophers who interpreted in religious terms the teachings of Plato), the logos was both immanent in the world and at the same time the transcendent divine mind."
This is basic Greco-Christian stuff. It's not a concept found in the Hebrew Writings. It's foreign. And it goes way beyond the basic meaning of the word 'logos'.
@Teritos
firedragon
Veteran Member
I'm not Jewish. I don't speak Hebrew. But I know bovine excreta when I see it
Haha. Thats why I like u.
P.S. When said Jewish, I meant the theology. See why I do??
Teritos
Active Member
God is called "mal'ak"(messanger) because the word of Him manifests as a person, as Isaiah 55:11 says. The word is God Himself, because it came out of His own breath and therefore he speaks in the first person. God's own Word acts like a Person. The "mal'ak"(angel) is his Word.
But the created angels, who are not God's word, speaks in the third Person about God.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
The angel of the LORD was not God Himself because no one has ever seen God Himself (John 1:18 , 1 John 4:12).
The angel, whom men did see face to face, was the agent of God Himself who represented God by speaking the words of God and doing the will and works of God. They were to obey the angel as if it were God Himself. And that's why the angel is called LORD and GOD.
But the one true God, no man has ever seen face to face. Moses came close to seeing God's face when he was on the Mount. But God put His hand over the cleft in the rock as His face passed by. Moses was only privileged to see God's back. The reason God did not allow Moses to see His face is on account that Moses would have died on the spot if he had.
Teritos
Active Member
The NT, like the OT, says that the Word of God is the spoken Word of God. Everything was created through God's spoken word. He spoke and it was. John also refers to this.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Everything was created through the Word of God.
I give up. Believe whatever you like.
Tumah
Veteran Member
That is not the only meaning it has in Christianity and I'm guessing you're trying to simplify the meaning in order to make it pass.
No, that would not be possible because the Hebrew word for "angel" is a word that literally means "messenger" (as you note in your next post) and a thing can't be a messenger of itself.
No, G-d is not called "mal'ak" and manifesting as a person wouldn't be a logical reason to call G-d an angel.
This does not follow.
We can see that this is not true when we read the words of the Prophets who are speaking in G-d's Name: they very often speak in the first person. Messengers are known to speak in the first person when speaking on behalf of their Sender.
It's a mess
Teritos
Active Member
@Tumah
Isaiah 55:11 shows us that the Word of God acts like a person. It does what God wants and it is "sent", like a messanger. A Messanger is also "sent" and do what the Sender wants. But the Word of God is that which comes out of his mouth, it's not another being. The Angel of God is God himself because he is the Word of God manifested as a person.
And yes, some prophets also speak in the first person, but these say, "Thus says the LORD:..." Therefore, they only quote what they were told. But the angel of the Lord speaks directly in the first person. When Jacob fought with the angel of the Lord, who according to Hosea was YHWH himself, Jacob said, "I have seen God face to face"
When the ANGEL of the Lord speaks:
And he said: I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
When a prophet of Israel speaks:
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, My son, my firstborn, is Israel.
And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and said unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may keep me a feast in the wilderness.
The Angel speaks directly in the first person, but the prophet speaks in the first person by quoting the Lord. It's not the same.
Isaiah 55:11 shows us that the Word of God acts like a person. It does what God wants and it is "sent", like a messanger. A Messanger is also "sent" and do what the Sender wants. But the Word of God is that which comes out of his mouth, it's not another being. The Angel of God is God himself because he is the Word of God manifested as a person.
And yes, some prophets also speak in the first person, but these say, "Thus says the LORD:..." Therefore, they only quote what they were told. But the angel of the Lord speaks directly in the first person. When Jacob fought with the angel of the Lord, who according to Hosea was YHWH himself, Jacob said, "I have seen God face to face"
When the ANGEL of the Lord speaks:
And he said: I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
When a prophet of Israel speaks:
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, My son, my firstborn, is Israel.
And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and said unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may keep me a feast in the wilderness.
The Angel speaks directly in the first person, but the prophet speaks in the first person by quoting the Lord. It's not the same.
Tumah
Veteran Member
@Teritos
Repeating yourself isn't going to make your position more logical. G-d cannot be both Himself and His messenger. A messenger by definition is not the originator of a message.
Isaiah 55:11 doesn't show us that the Word of G-d acts like a person. In fact, it compares G-d's Word to rain, not a person. But even if that weren't true, there's still no comparison in 55:11 to a person.
A prophet begins his words with "So says G-d" in order to express that he's about to speak a prophecy and not his own words (since after all, he'll be speaking in first person). An angel doesn't need to do this, because it's understood that that's the reason why the angel is there - it's a messenger after all.
Moses hid his face from looking at the angel just as Manoah feared that he would die from having seen an angel.
Repeating yourself isn't going to make your position more logical. G-d cannot be both Himself and His messenger. A messenger by definition is not the originator of a message.
Isaiah 55:11 doesn't show us that the Word of G-d acts like a person. In fact, it compares G-d's Word to rain, not a person. But even if that weren't true, there's still no comparison in 55:11 to a person.
A prophet begins his words with "So says G-d" in order to express that he's about to speak a prophecy and not his own words (since after all, he'll be speaking in first person). An angel doesn't need to do this, because it's understood that that's the reason why the angel is there - it's a messenger after all.
Moses hid his face from looking at the angel just as Manoah feared that he would die from having seen an angel.
The three parts are seen in self as mind, body, spirit(force).
In genesis 1, God is uncreated and eternal. Spirit(ruach(mind))) is uncreated and eternal. the waters are uncreated and eternal. The son(created)is everything created.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
In the Old Testament, God created the heavens and earth is six days and he rested on the seventh day; Sabbath day. If you look closely, there is no mention of the eighth day of Creation, in the Old Testament. This suggests means God was still on his Sabbath rest during most of the Old Testament, and had not yet started to work a new work week.
During the Sabbath, one is not supposed to do work. One is to prepare all that is needed so they can coast on the Sabbath. God created animal and humans on the sixth day. However, work may still be done on this Sabbath, but his needs to be done by those who do not observe the Sabbath and who are not under its regulations; slaves and servants.
In the case of the Old Testament, the work of the Lord of the Earth, in charge of the humans after their creation and fall, was being done by Satan. Satan was in charge, as God rested on the seven day or Sabbath. God was like the Chairman of the Board of Directors, who meets with the Board of Directors to discuss things, but he does not engage in any hands on things. This is done by the CEO, which was Satan. The Book of Job has God on a plant tour, with Satan. Satan needs Gods approval to put Job through the ringer to prove a point. Satan is leading the tour.
Satan is not thrown from heaven until Revelations, which means Satan was condoned in heaven during Old Testament and even during the Sabbath rest. Satan had previously been Lucifer during the initial creation, while God worked, but evolved into Satan during the Sabbath rest.
Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was connected to Satan, by means of the symbolism of the snake in the tree. A snake symbolizes instinct; 1-D impulses. God, via his omniscience, knew what would happen, but he let it happen, since he was resting. Satan had CEO control at that point in time, to do the work for God, as God rested. Satan, like the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also good and evil. God is morally neutral like the tree of Life. Satan was polarized and his favorite tree was also polarized as knowledge of Good and Evil; law. Law came from Satan Lord of the Earth, while God rested.
In the New Testament, especially at the end of Revelations, the old heavens and earth disappear and there is a new Heavens and Earth created. This extreme act of creation would require God to begin the new work week, after his Sabbath ended.
The best place in the New Testament that shows that Satan was the Lord of the Earth, in the Old Testament, was connected to the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. Among others things, Satan promised Jesus all the wealth and kingdoms of the world if Jesus would bow down and serve Satan.
Jesus never says Satan was lying or that he did not have the authority on earth to give all this. Rather Jesus respectfully declined the offer. Had Jesus accepted this, he would have become the Messiah anticipated by the Old Testament; rich, powerful and able to subdue and control all the enemies of Israel. However, by refusing the offer, Jesus would become something better. Satan would be thrown from heaven and then Jesus would replace Satan, at the right hand of power. The new work week then begins. The first day of the new work week begins when the Heavenly Jerusalem is built and descends from heaven to earth.
But that stance can also be applied to in the other direction. Who was non-Scriptural?
Isaiah 9:For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.
To the eye of a reader... it would seem to be a person.
LOL- only communists.
The NT is written in Greek, and these ideas about the logos are Greek. That is, as others have already said, they're not found in the Tanakh.
Nor can Jesus be a candidate for the title messiah in terms of the Tanakh, being neither a civil, military or religious leader, nor ever having been anointed by the Jewish priesthood.
And one thing he, with great certainty, never did was become the savior of Judaism. Instead, two millennia of Christian anti-semitism follow, starting with the last gospel, John.