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Featured The Trinity in the OT (my belief)

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Teritos, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:16 the spirit ITSELF bears witness. Not the spirit himself. Not a separate person but the spirit that is God. John 16:18 he will reprove the world. He is God not a separate spirit. I Cor 12:11 the spirit divides to every man. The spirit that is God. No need for a separate person. Mat 28:19 Baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. When the police arrest someone they arrest in the name of the law. Which means by the power or authority of the law. A person is baptized by the power or authority of God. No need for a thirg person spirit.Luke 3:22 the spirit descended like a dove. The spirit of God and some separate person. God is a spirit. Wht can't that spirit descend like a dove? Sorry but none of these verses prove that the spirit is a distinct person. They refer to the one spirit that is God and since only God is holy that is the one and only Holy Spirit.
     
  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    This is how I understand it. I did one verse each but they all work in context and as a unit

    1. God is the creator Genesis 1:1-25 (given)
    2. He had oral dictations Deuteronomy 28:1 (Full OT)
    3. The oral dictations/laws-the “Word” of god-of god and the dictations themselves are one (John 10:36)
    4. People didn’t listen Romans 4:15 (among others)
    5. So, the creator made a new law. Ephesians 1:7 1 and summarized the old law Mathew 5:17
    6. How did he do this? He took his oral law/Word (above) and made it incarnate (John 1:1) so it/he can walked among the people in order for them to have an intimate relationship with the Word/Law which is inseparable from the creator. So, when you follow christ, you follow the creator. People have been getting this wrong and worshiping christ so christ says: John 5:39-40. He also tells his apostles Mark 10:18 (among others)
    7. Instead of worshiping the vehicle in which salvation is given, you worship the person who is the source of that vehicle. You worship the source not tool.

    If I told you I drove my car to the store, you wouldn’t think the car drove itself but the source/me was the one who used the car to drive it to the store. That doesn’t mean there is no relationship between the car and myself. I own the car. It is My Car. You can even say it’s a reflection of me because it reflects my character (assuming I’m a car fan). But the car is not me.

    If I told you that the creator sent christ to earth so believers can be saved, you wouldn’t think that christ himself out of his own intentions sent himself to earth for others to be saved. Christ doesn’t save by himself. That doesn’t mean there is no relationship between the creator and christ. Christ is god’s son. You can even say that christ is a reflection of his father because christ reflects god’s character. But christ is not the creator but it is still relevant nonetheless.

    Now.

    The world was made the creator through christ. So, you can say technically the car drove to the store but most people who are monotheist would give credit to the source, the driver, not the car. Likewise, non-trinitarians would most likely give the credit to the creator as the source/driver. That doesn’t mean that christ isn’t important. Just he isn’t to be worshiped (above).

    By-is a preposition. It relates the creator to his son. The son is used by the creator to be an instrument of salvation. (Instrument is a better word than vehicle now that I think of it)

    Because christ is the creator’s son, he gave the son the power that creator had (John 14:!6 and Mathew 28:18). That doesn’t mean he is the creator. He was given the authority to speak for the creator. A representative Colossians 1:15

    Both means two not one. Trinity not unity (by the way).

    Colossians 1:15 Now you can say christ is god by this verse, but how I read it by the rest of what I wrote is another example of the relationship between christ and his father. Though, side note, in Hindu traditions-for example-the incarnation is actually god itself so in some people’s point of view, I guess one can say there is no incarnation cause all is god. But where you guys part is trying to say that christ is god while at the same time saying christ is not god (like you mentioned god not god). It confuses people.

    -

    Also, with the titles etc

    Called; referred to; addressed is exactly what I mean by title. When you are given a title, that’s how people refer to you, by that title. These are adjectives to describe god but they are not god itself. Proper pronoun, for lack of better words, but definitely god wouldn’t be a title. There are religions in which sound and words “are” god, but I never heard that in abrahamic traditions unless christianity is unique in those regards.

    Take your time.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    I agree I over reacted to your example:
    'You wouldn't say he's "Yahweh of Yahweh" (see the difference?)'
    The Name of God in the Hebrew by tradition is read as "Lord." So the practice of translating God's Name as "the LORD" came to be. The tradition is based on not wanting to take God's name contrary to the commandment against the wrong use of God's Name. So some coming to the word of deity write it as "G-d" too.
    So my reaction was the apparent supposing God's Name was used in Lord of Lords in your example.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    At issue is we seem to disagree that the Spirit is a Person.
    The literal translation in Romans 8:16 is "itself."
    The modern English practice with the understanding that the Spirit is a person is to translate it as "himself."
    ASV, RSV, NASB, NIV, NKJV, HCSB, ESV, CSB, etc.
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Romans 8:9, ". . . if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." How do you understand the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ?" God and Christ being understood as distinct Persons. The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ and the Spirt Himself are God, John 4:24. I understand all three to be distinct Persons but the One and the same Spirit and God by way of the third Person the Spirit.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    There are a number of issues. I did not take count.

    Just taking your first point where we differ.
    How would you show your view in what you understand my view compared to your view. How are they the same, how do you see where they differ?
    I agree with point 1. We may not have the same understanding of point 1.
    I would add the NT to point 2.
    I do not understand your point 3. Re: John 10:36. Since I see the Word as a an uncaused Person with God. Father and Son co-eternal. The Son as the sole agent of Cause. John 1:3.
    John 10:36, "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" John 5:18.
     
  7. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    They differ in that you're saying christ is the creator by the words by/through. I'm not sure of any other points you disagree with.

    I would see the word as the creator's laws that where made incarnate.

    Take the creator's law/words "love your god above all else" People in the old testament disobeyed and worshiped idols. The creator kept telling them to sacrifice unblemished animals for forgiveness and reconciliation, yet they still sinned.

    The law/words "love your god above all else" are one with the creator/the source that said it; they are inseparable.

    In the NT the creator said let my law/word (love your god above all else) become flesh/incarnation. Love your god above all else=love the creator; they are inseparable.

    You literally have a relationship with god's law (love) by/through that love incarnate: christ.

    Now christians can love their creator above else through jesus christ because he is love incarnate. Love and creator cannot be separated, so that's why (in my opinion) trinitarians can't differentiate the two. I don't have issues with christian's interpretation of their scripture, but I don't mind discussing it. However, they have a disagreement amongst themselves the nature of whether god is jesus or not. While I understand both views, I'd side with non-trinitarian insofar that christ's words has always separated himself from his father and words like by/through are not is/equal in their definition.

    Cliff-notes: Another reason is you can see a pattern of the creator giving laws people disobeyed, he made a new law, he made it personal (a person), and through that person one can be united back into that law (love), and that love is inseparable from the creator.

    I'm not sure any other way to see it. I get both views, but I do believe christ wants christians to differentiate the two only because that's what he kept saying to his apostles. I would personally say learn by example not just by words as christ would say don't look to scriptures but the one scriptures speak of.

    Another reason is christians consider the bible christ's words. Why would it be called "words or Word" if what is written (once said) the incarnate was not inseperable from the laws his creator had given?

    In other words, love/law and creator are inseparable. Love/law became flesh. Love the incarnate, you experience love; experience love, you connect with the creator. I understand why some christians can't make difference between the three love/christ/creator, but I do see a huge difference based on what christ says.

    1. Co-eternal (two not one)
    2. Sole agent of the cause not the cause itself
    3. Sent to the world not sent himself; I am the "son"of god not god himself.
     
    #107 Unveiled Artist, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Is there any proof that the translation "itself" is wrong? Maybe what is wrong is the modern translation is based on ideas falsely brought into the church in modern times? I see no reson that a spirit is anything but an "it". Not male or female.
     
  9. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    John 4:24 just says God is a spirit.Notice "A" spirit. "A" means one. God is ONE spirit. "God" is not a person. God is the Father and the Son. Two persons, one spirit, one God. The two (father and son) are ONE spirit. They do not need a third separate spirit.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    We differ in our understanding.
    I am Trinitarian.
    Philosophically, God is without beginning or end, eternal, infinite, omnipresent-invisible.

    Uncaused Cause is both without beginning or end, eternal, infinite, omnipresent-invisible and temporal, finite, local, visible of the invisible in order to be Uncaused Cause.

    God and Cause are One by a without beginning or end, eternal, infinite, omnipresent-invisible Uncaused Essence.

    Uncaused God - The Father.
    Uncased Cause - The Word aka The Son of God.
    Uncaused Essence - The Holy Spirit.

    One Uncaused, The One God.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    If I understand what you are arguing you come across to me as a Binitarian, I am Trinitarian in my view, One God who is Spirit, three Persons. God the Eather, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    The translation "itself" in Romans 8:16 is literal. With the understanding that means the Spirit is "its" own person, the more modern English traslation "himself" has been since used. 1909 ASV etc.
     
    #112 37818, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  13. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Looking at your car analogy. One of our defferences is how God creates "by" Jesus. Today with AI we do have cars which do drive autonomously. The Word who became Jesus is autonomous, in His own words does according to His Father's instructions as sole Creator on behalf of His Father. In Jesus' own words, John 5:18-19, ". . . said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . ."
    This understanding is a difference between our views.
     
    #113 37818, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  14. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    God is spirit. God is holy. God is Holy Spirit. Do you really think there is a Father spirit and a Son spirit and a separate Holy Spirit? I am certainly NOT a binatarian. To me that means two Gods and to me trinitarian means three Gods. I believe in ONE God. Do you have a favorite sports team? There are a number of players on that team but it is one team. The Heavenly Father and his Son make up ONE God. And that one God is spirit and that spirit is holy. Therefore "God" is the Holy Spirit.
     
  15. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps itself means its own person is the understanding of some people but that does not mean it is correct. If "GOD" is a spirit there is no need for a separate spirit. There is no such thing as a father spirit and a son spirit and a spirit spirit.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, John 4:24. Of distinct Persons and being of the one and the same Spirit, being that they are the one and the same God. Again, I hold they are three distinct Persons. You do not.
    Of no interest.
    The fact is most modern English translations translate the literal "itself" in Romans 8:16 as "himself."
    They are only One Spirit, John 4:24. Whether Binitarian or Trinitarian.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist You are safe

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    No negative-pun intended, but that's a nice re-direct. The focus is still on the source. A car can't make itself-someone would have had to set it up for it to function.

    …17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” 18 Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.…

    He (christ) was even calling god his father (not himself), and making himself equal to god (not god himself). The son could (not) do nothing by himself (therefore not god), unless he sees the father doing it. (In other words, if the source doesn't do it, the son doesn't).

    Equal doesn't me an is. That's like saying 2 and 2 are equal to each other therefore that makes the answer 2 (2 but not one 2 at the same time "like god and not god?").

    When instead 1 and 1 and 1 equals 3 and therefore, that makes all three 1s (creator, savior, "and not is" holy spirit) a trinity.

    If they were each other: 1 and 1 and 1 "is" 1, they aren't distinct (creator, son, and holy spirit); they are a unity. Though, scripture says father, son, and holy spirit not father is son is holy spirit. And and equal and the use of by/through etc all denote there is more than one thing in relation to the other either (scripturally) they work as a unit (and), have the same authority (equal), or one acting and being in relation to the other (by/through).

    --

    I can see the difference. Which is tricky because since you're a christian, you have christian biases. So you'd see it the way your experience and interpretations tell you not as is per context (not verse). It's also interesting to note that Jews and Christians don't believe in the same thing but the latter feel they have some sort of stake in the Jews scripture and some of their theology. Now, as an outsider, I would have to say the jews makes more sense because they believe in one god and jesus refers to one god. But when I hear from christians saying they take part of the jews then say their god is also human, it throws scripture off....

    therefore I can't take your interpretation as a fact but as an opinion. The problem with interpretations, though, from an outsiders view there is no cultural context and I'm not native in Hebrew and Greek and so forth. I'm sure most christians aren't either-so I attend it's differences in biases and indoctrination.

    In my opinion, different interpretations of the bible shouldn't be a salvational issue. How do you interpret the verse:

    38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.… John 5:39
     
    #117 Unveiled Artist, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
  18. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you have no interest in a sports team because it contradicts what you believe. There may be a kicker on the team or a catcher on the team but you do not have a team on the team. The players ARE the team. The Father and Son ARE the spirit. It is the spirit of God, meaning the spirit of the Father and Son because they are God. There is a spirit of God but no spirit of the Spirit just like there is a kicker of the team but no team of the team.
     
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