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Featured The Trinity in the OT (my belief)

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Teritos, Feb 27, 2021.

  1. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    We see the Trinity already in the first three verses of the Bible. (Genesis 1:1-3)

    1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. FATHER, Yahweh
    2. And the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. HOLY SPIRIT, the Breath
    3. And God spoke: Let there be light. And it was light. SON, the spoken Word

    Psalms 33:6-9
    Through the Word of Yahweh were the heavens made, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke, and it was.

    Isaiah 55:11
    So shall my Word be that goes out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall carry out that for which I have sent it.

    John 1:14
    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
    John 6:38
    For I have came down from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me.
     
    #1 Teritos, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021
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  2. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Psalm 33 says this, in my translation: For He said and it came about; He commanded and it endured.

    KJV has 'spake'.

    'Word' or 'Logos' is a Greek concept you will find nowhere in Tanakh unless you are already a Christian and looking to reinterpret verses that have nothing to do with a foreign Greek philosophy.
     
    #2 Rival, Feb 27, 2021
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  3. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Brother,
    We do not agree as to how the Trinity being the God is found in the OT. John 1:2-3. Colossians 1:16-17.
     
  4. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    What's the difference between "said, spake" and "spoke"?
    Psalms 33:6-9
    Through the Word of Yahweh were the heavens made, for he spoke and it was.
    John 1:3
    All things were made through the Word and without the Word, nothing was made that has been made.

    Logos = Dabar
     
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  5. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    None.

    It's not 'word'.

    And here you go again retconning a Greek idea into a Hebrew text.
     
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  6. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    The OT says that through the Word all things were created, the NT says it also. Where's the problem?
    The greek word Logos is the same word as Dabar, just in another language.
     
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  7. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    It's not the same concept. The Tanakh says nothing like this; it says G-d spoke things into being. I don't care what the 'NT' says as I don't believe it.
     
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  8. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    The NT says it also. God speaks, and the spoken Word does whatever God wants.

    Isaiah 55:11
    So shall my Word be that goes out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall carry out that for which I have sent it.
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    You are still seeing this through a Christian lens. The 'word' here is not a being. Your translation is also incredibly biased, giving 'word' a capital w.
     
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  10. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    In Psalm 33:6 the Hebrew is בדבר, which is a noun (דבר), so I don't believe it would properly be translated "He said." If I'm wrong about that, somebody can please let me know, but I just wanted to point that out.
     
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  11. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    OK. But how much do you really believe Moses? Genesis 3: , ". . . the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: . . ."
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I'm not particularly bothered about this right now. While d-v-r- can be translated 'word' that's not my point here. My point here is that he's imposing a Greek concept of 'Logos', which has a philosophy all its own out outside of any Jewish sphere, and putting it onto a Hebrew text. This is to see the Hebrew text through a Greco-Christian lens and to reinterpret it accordingly, which is antithetical to what the text actually means. Nowhere in Tanakh is there a concept of 'Word' such as the Greek 'Logos' in the Christian notion, especially.
     
    #12 Rival, Feb 27, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  13. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Here's what that verse actually says, as you clearly know through your use of ellipses,

    And they heard the voice of the Lord G-d going in the garden to the direction of the sun, and the man and his wife hid from before the Lord G-d in the midst of the trees of the garden.
     
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  14. Norman Beall

    Norman Beall Member

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    The act of mother nature that animates matter is called the holy spirit, it is what God calls his glory.

    The reason it is written that none fulfill the glory of God, is due to that fact that without the act of mother nature that animates matter, without the holy spirit, not even God would be alive.

    There are two in the beginning with God. One is called 'the word' and the other is called 'the same'.

    Christ is the one called 'the same'. Jesus Christs 'the same' yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    The sword God sends in christ's name is called 'the word'.
     
  15. Teritos

    Teritos Active Member

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    It seems that the words God speaks are manifested as a person, for in Isaiah 55:11 his spoken words are personified as the Word which is sent and do what God wants. The word that comes out of his mouth acts as a person. The person is God Himself, because it came out of his breath. That is why John 1:1 says the Word was with God and was God.
    The words I speak are also myself. My own Word is me, it comes out of my spirit.
     
  16. Norman Beall

    Norman Beall Member

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    John speaks about two in the beginning with God. one God calls the word, and the other God calls the same. they're nicknames for humans that God knew would come to be from the moment of the beginning. in the book of Job the two in the beginning with God when the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy.

    One is christ. The other is the sword God sends in christs name, the one that teaches the truth of all things that brings to your remembrance the things christ said, as christ said God would do, remember?
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    Jewish Publication Society Tanakh - 1917 -- "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden toward the cool of the day; and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden."

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/jewish/Chapter-3.htm Verse 8
    "And they heard the voice of the Lord God going in the garden to the direction of the sun, and the man and his wife hid from before the Lord God in the midst of the trees of the garden."

    My point being G-d who is eternal, infinite and omnipresent is acting in a temporal, finite and local way.
     
  18. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    God spoke - and that was His son??? I am afraid having a son involves a lot more than speaking.
     
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  19. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    A man has a spirit but it is not a separate person. God has a spirit but it is not a separate person.
     
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  20. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    The Son is the agent though whom God does all things, John 1:2-3, John 5:19, John 14:6.
    With the Persons, God, Christ and the Spirit Himself, each have their own spirit, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, as distinct Persons are nevertheless the one Spirit as God, John 4:24.
     
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