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"The Right is way worse than the Left!!!"

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It would be useful to see the other side's perspective.
If both the mother & fetus have a right to life, then
there will be rights to balance. This is typical when
rights of 2 different people are in conflict, eg, the
right to bear arms, & the right to control activities
on one's own property.
So it doesn't make women "chattel", ie, property
that can be bought & sold.

Note: I'm pro-abortion rights.

I can concede that. RvW was a very good and rational compromise. Before fetal viability - and whenever fetal viability is lacking - I can't see any reasonable (secular) argument for forced birth. I'm unaware of other cases where we demand a person surrender their intimate bodily autonomy to preserve the potential life of another in such a long term and disruptive fashion. And given the history of forced birth and pregnancy being used to subjugate and control women, specifically, yeah... I use terms like chattel in part because of that. It's really not far from the sad truth of why this is really being done. Reproductive autonomy is absolutely essential for women's rights. For one political party to be responsible for massive backsliding there is, to me, a prime example of why the opening post's argument is crock nonsense.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I can concede that. RvW was a very good and rational compromise. Before fetal viability - and whenever fetal viability is lacking - I can't see any reasonable (secular) argument for forced birth.

The beginning of life is an arbitrary demarcation.
Even atheists can disagree about where it should be.
I'm unaware of other cases where we demand a person surrender their intimate bodily autonomy to preserve the potential life of another in such a long term and disruptive fashion. And given the history of forced birth and pregnancy being used to subjugate and control women, specifically, yeah... I use terms like chattel in part because of that.

Where you see forced birth as subjugating women,
I see their motive as saving the life of a baby.
So while I disagree with them, I don't see them
as anti-woman / evil.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I disagree with the opinion that “Republicans are garbage”. I’ve known many loyal and incredible people who are Republicans. However… I completely approve of calling out political hypocrisy, regardless of whether it comes from Red or Blue.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Don't get me wrong, the Right is garbage, but they've always been the way they are. I've been done with them since childhood. The Left used to at least try and help people, try to be reasonable, try to be balanced. It's become literally nothing more than a vile reflection of the Right.



For instance, I'm so sick of hearing about January 6th. First of all, the founders literally wanted us to tear them out of office if/when they went bad, the only problem with the Trumpers is they did it for a dumb reason to support an absolute fool. [Worth noting that left propaganda is so bad people assume if you aren't a D you support Trump.] But my real problem? These are the same people who cheered at the murder of police officers, torching of entire neighborhoods, occupations of major cities, and wanted to let a pedophile with a gun publicly execute a kid because he made an extremely, objectively stupid decision at 17. So it's kind of hilarious to hear these worries about "inciting violence" or "domestic terrorism" from "mostly peaceful" rioting murderers and looters.



Republicans don't care about children, everyone knows this. Imagine being a young, democratic social worker and seeing people, coworkers, and democratic politicians give their all for children at the border, when they can't be bothered to care about the 5 abusive foster homes in their own neighborhood (probably because they weren't told to). Both are bad, but they don't give a damn because caring about one group of kids is worth far more political social credit. Our hearts go to Urkraine, but who cares about the numerous other genocides, war crimes, unjust wars, etc. that the party hasn't told us to care about? Everyone still went to Qatar. Just like the Republicans and their special pleading hypocrisy.



We all know Republicans don't care about workers rights, they'd have us work 100 hour weeks with no PTO for minimum wage and no benefits. So what about the Left? Do they care about employees or political posturing? The answer is clear when you look at the fact that even Bernie is arguing for rail workers to have 7 PTO days. That's laughably low, and what about the rest of us? He and his peers, again, just push the topic of the day for votes, just like caring about border but not foster kids.



What about guns? The Left wants guns gone more than anything, same as the right wants to be able to go to Wal-Mart and buy a grenade launcher for home defense. Blatant reflections of each other, but neither gives a darn about the real problem: mental health. Because being pro/anti gun gets the votes. The Right probably thinks mental illness is demons or something, which gets them votes, whereas the Left now actively encourages mental illness as something chic and individuating, which gets them votes. Because they care ABOUT THE VOTES, not about you or me. Just take any mass shooting - literally neither side cares about what might have driven a person to do that, or bullying, or parenting, or the already mentioned mental health. Only "keep/take guns". "Guns are the cause." Do mentally healthy people commit mass murder?



Remember the days when the Right used to try and cancel people under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent? Like Marilyn Manson? But who actually successfully canceled Manson under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent? The same people who cancel everyone these days, the Left. Remember "believe all women" followed by the Depp trial, after he was canceled under accusations that were guilty until proven innocent?



How about abortion? It's my body my choice, unless of course we're talking about politicized topics. Tell me when I can work (if I'm even defined as essential enough), tell me I'm defined by my skin color or the acts of my ancestors (original sin, really?), try to stop my income because of what a doctor recommends me? You're going to treat people like second class citizens in the hospital simply because they caught a specific illness with a high survival rate? But only the Republicans are tyrants, of course, only they are fascist and authoritarian, you aren't mirror images of each other.



And you know something? Never once at work have I had a conservative try to shove their religion down my throat. I was even outted at one job ignorantly as a "satanist" and the conservatives just joked with me about it. The Ledt will not. shut. up at work. About how they have their position cause of gender or race while telling the rest of their demographic how they need to be saved by a company, about how they're triple jabbed and still masking even though they have Covid, about how they're part of an anti capitalist rebellion as they work OT in their favorite brand name shirt, about how their votes "won't be counted" cause of their color in our purple gone blue state. SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR RELIGION AT WORK.



Remember when they freaked out at Republicans killing an effigy of Obama (messed up) then loved a mock decapitation of Trump? Remember the Republicans screaming to Democrats that they need to respect the president, and the democrats just laughing? And who now thinks we need to respect the office itself irrelevant of the person while the other side hypocritically mocks? Who mocked Trump falling on stairs and now can't handle it when people laugh at Biden? I explicitly remember an incident where how Trump took a drink of water was analyzed.



Both parties are exactly. The. Same. Thing. Because American politics is all one party: the Anti-Citizen, keep ourselves rich, and stay in power party. Democrats, Republicans, tomatoe tomatoe. They are the same thing.

I just have a side question out of my own curiosity - which Presidential candidate did you vote for in 2020? Or did you not vote? In the general election I mean, of course.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The beginning of life is an arbitrary demarcation.
Even atheists can disagree about where it should be.

Where you see forced birth as subjugating women,
I see their motive as saving the life of a baby.
So while I disagree with them, I don't see them
as anti-woman / evil.
Until pro lifers argue that a person must be forced to be hooked up to a dying person (whether that be through a blood transfusion or otherwise) I will see them as hypocrites. And indeed anti woman

It’s easy to target a pregnant woman and cry endlessly about the right to life of a fetus.
Such victims are both rather helpless, at least society views them as such

Still many pro lifers will usually concede to extreme circumstances being okay to enact abortion all the same.
Rape, underage pregnancy etc.
So clearly there is a line in the sand that everyone can at least agree on, where abortion is the ethical thing to do

I have seen their side of the argument and remain unmoved.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Until pro lifers argue that a person must be forced to be hooked up to a dying person (whether that be through a blood transfusion or otherwise)....
Whuh?
It’s easy to target a pregnant woman and cry endlessly about the right to life of a fetus.
Such victims are both rather helpless, at least society views them as such

Still many pro lifers will usually concede to extreme circumstances being okay to enact abortion all the same.
Rape, underage pregnancy etc.
So clearly there is a line in the sand that everyone can at least agree on, where abortion is the ethical thing to do

I have seen their side of the argument and remain unmoved.
Actually, if pro-lifers allow abortion in cases of
incest & rape, I find this hypocritical. After all,
you wouldn't kill a baby for being borne under
such circumstances. So if a fetus is indeed
a baby, abortion would be murder too.

It's time that extremely partisan pro-life &
pro-abortion types stop treating each other
as the spawn of Satan.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
@1137 - when you can stop putting words in my mouth that aren't there and knock it off with the slander, a proper conversation can be had.

If referencing your own posts puts words in your mouth then there's no hope. You can say anything you want and when I call you on it it's putting words in your mouth. Republican debaters would be super proud of you. Thank you for further proving my point
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I can concede that. RvW was a very good and rational compromise. Before fetal viability - and whenever fetal viability is lacking - I can't see any reasonable (secular) argument for forced birth. I'm unaware of other cases where we demand a person surrender their intimate bodily autonomy to preserve the potential life of another in such a long term and disruptive fashion. And given the history of forced birth and pregnancy being used to subjugate and control women, specifically, yeah... I use terms like chattel in part because of that. It's really not far from the sad truth of why this is really being done. Reproductive autonomy is absolutely essential for women's rights. For one political party to be responsible for massive backsliding there is, to me, a prime example of why the opening post's argument is crock nonsense.

Why is taking away reproductive autonomy evil, but the democrats taking away medical autonomy, right to work, etc not evil? You imply this when you say only the right is evil, after all.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I just have a side question out of my own curiosity - which Presidential candidate did you vote for in 2020? Or did you not vote? In the general election I mean, of course.

Didn't vote. I refuse to knowingly vote for evil, and I refuse to help keep up the facade that our votes even matter at all.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
@1137 - referencing or quoting someone's words doesn't mean one correctly understands their intended meaning or isn't engaging in deliberate attempts to distort their intended meaning. When someone claims to "call me out" on things I never actually said and don't actually believe, that's a non-starter. Moreover, it's trolling. Knock it off.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well if abortion is murder, allowing someone to die when you could have helped could be argued to be murder adjacent, no?
And yet how many pro lifers actively donate blood?
It’s easy to protest and harass women seeking medical advice. But how many walk the walk? How many actually do something that helps society? That helps children. Hell that helps prevent actual death?

Actually, if pro-lifers allow abortion in cases of
incest & rape, I find this hypocritical. After all,
you wouldn't kill a baby for being borne under
such circumstances. So if a fetus is indeed
a baby, abortion would be murder too.

That’s what I said. Even most pro lifers will concede that such circumstances may require abortion. Which is hypocritical to their position, technically.

It's time that extremely partisan pro-life &
pro-abortion types stop treating each other
as the spawn of Satan.
When you still hear of cases such as a 10 year old child needing to cross state lines to have an abortion, in a so called first world country no less (Americastan), it’s admittedly hard to hold back my contempt.

Not saying that every pro lifer is evil or indeed hypocritical. I’m sure some actively do “walk the walk.” And I get along with many irl.
I’m just saying, I have seen the affects pro life sentiments and laws have had on actual real life people.
So sorry not sorry. I’m done with that debate.
If someone doesn’t want to have an abortion, then I’m not going to force them. All I ask is they show that same courtesy to others. But apparently that’s too much to ask of some
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why is taking away reproductive autonomy evil, but the democrats taking away medical autonomy, right to work, etc not evil? You imply this when you say only the right is evil, after all.
A fetus/embryo/blastocyte/or any other human has no right to the use of someone's body without their continuous expressed consent. This has no bearing on right to work or medical consent at large.

We can certainly talk about those issues separately though. But if all you're interested in is covid conspiracy theories you won't get much time of day.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well if abortion is murder, allowing someone to die when you could have helped could be argued to be murder adjacent, no?
That's what some say about the fetus.
And yet how many pro lifers actively donate blood?
I don't know.
But if they did, would that make them correct?
It’s easy to protest and harass women seeking medical advice. But how many walk the walk? How many actually do something that helps society? That helps children. Hell that helps prevent actual death?
Hey, don't argue with me about it.
I'm pro-abortion.
That’s what I said. Even most pro lifers will concede that such circumstances may require abortion. Which is hypocritical to their position, technically.
I agree.
When you still hear of cases such as a 10 year old child needing to cross state lines to have an abortion, in a so called first world country no less (Americastan), it’s admittedly hard to hold back my contempt.
In her case, giving birth would be very risky,
& have long term deleterious consequences.
So if a pro-lifer thought abortion was OK for
her, then it's not so hypocritical.
Not saying that every pro lifer is evil or indeed hypocritical. I’m sure some actively do “walk the walk.” And I get along with many irl.
I’m just saying, I have seen the affects pro life sentiments and laws have had on actual real life people.
So sorry not sorry. I’m done with that debate.
If someone doesn’t want to have an abortion, then I’m not going to force them. All I ask is they show that same courtesy to others. But apparently that’s too much to ask of some
Courtesy isn't the issue.
It's about balancing rights.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
That's what some say about the fetus..

True.

I don't know.
But if they did, would that make them correct?.

It would show they are willing to actively follow through on their beliefs.
I could understand folks opting for something “less intrusive” like donating to a homeless shelter or something.

It’s not about making them correct, per se. It’s more that such protesters are all too happy to try to coerce someone else into undergoing a pregnancy against their will. But can’t stand themselves being even slightly inconvenienced.
Just makes their message ring a bit hollow, is all.

Hey, don't argue with me about it.
I'm pro-abortion.

I agree.

Fair enough

In her case, giving birth would be very risky,
& have long term deleterious consequences.
So if a pro-lifer thought abortion was OK for
her, then it's not so hypocritical..

But it’s not just the concession for health reasons I’m referring to. That I can understand and would agree that it is not hypocritical.
Rape and incest are also (typically) agreed upon lines in the sand. So clearly when pushed, most people can concede that the issue is not black and white. Some won’t, ultimately but most will.
Again, if someone objects to abortion, that is their right and they have every right not to seek one.
I’d even agree that it’s their right to protest at clinics (around a perimeter for the safety of clients and workers.)
But they don’t seem to concede the same freedom to others.
Although many seem to scream about freedom all the same.
Just an observation

Courtesy isn't the issue.
It's about balancing rights.
Agreed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It would show they are willing to actively follow through on their beliefs.
I could understand folks opting for something “less intrusive” like donating to a homeless shelter or something.
People generally hold inconsistent beliefs.
Both pro & anti abortion.
But this doesn't make their views illegitimate,
nor do they just go away. So ad hominem
dismissal doesn't work.
It’s not about making them correct, per se. It’s more that such protesters are all too happy to try to coerce someone else into undergoing a pregnancy against their will. But can’t stand themselves being even slightly inconvenienced.
Just makes their message ring a bit hollow, is all.
Meh....93.72% of people are hypocritical in some way.
But it’s not just the concession for health reasons I’m referring to. That I can understand and would agree that it is not hypocritical.
Rape and incest are also (typically) agreed upon lines in the sand.
I don't see why a "baby" not the result of incest
or rape should live, but one who is may die.
The baby didn't do anything wrong. Nor does
it pose a greater risk to the mother's life.
So clearly when pushed, most people can concede that the issue is not black and white. Some won’t, ultimately but most will.
Again, if someone objects to abortion, that is their right and they have every right not to seek one.
I’d even agree that it’s their right to protest at clinics (around a perimeter for the safety of clients and workers.)
But they don’t seem to concede the same freedom to others.
Although many seem to scream about freedom all the same.
Just an observation
Lots'o screaming from both sides.
For me, the issue is simple, ie, find a compromise
on the point after which abortion is illegal, but allows
ample time to abort beforehand.
Where it gets complicated is the mother's right to
conduct her affairs such that she imposes medical
problems on a child that's later born, eg, fetal alcohol
syndrome. Tricky.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
A fetus/embryo/blastocyte/or any other human has no right to the use of someone's body without their continuous expressed consent. This has no bearing on right to work or medical consent at large.

We can certainly talk about those issues separately though. But if all you're interested in is covid conspiracy t
heories you won't get much time of day.

Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy, isn't it?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
@1137 - referencing or quoting someone's words doesn't mean one correctly understands their intended meaning or isn't engaging in deliberate attempts to distort their intended meaning. When someone claims to "call me out" on things I never actually said and don't actually believe, that's a non-starter. Moreover, it's trolling. Knock it off.

Alright, I'll give it one more go, even though we both know full well you have no intent to answer.

The right wants to strip you of bodily autonomy. The left wants to strip you of bodily autonomy. You state this is a false equivalency, so I'd like you to go more into that. Why is the rights stripping of autonomy not equivalent to the lefts? It's honestly a really, really simple question.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
People generally hold inconsistent beliefs.
Both pro & anti abortion.
But this doesn't make their views illegitimate,
nor do they just go away. So ad hominem
dismissal doesn't work.
Whilst I agree. If you’re going to present yourself as the side of morals and values, which the pro life crowd so often do, lack of follow through will stand out. As will hypocrisy

Meh....93.72% of people are hypocritical in some way.

I’d say more like 100% of people lol

I don't see why a "baby" not the result of incest
or rape should live, but one who is may die.
The baby didn't do anything wrong. Nor does
it pose a greater risk to the mother's life.
Agreed
And yet many will concede that such circumstances are fine for abortion nonetheless.

I’m pro choice so I don’t really care about the circumstances in general. It’s none of my business

Lots'o screaming from both sides.
For me, the issue is simple, ie, find a compromise
on the point after which abortion is illegal, but allows
ample time to abort beforehand.
Where it gets complicated is the mother's right to
conduct her affairs such that she imposes medical
problems on a child that's later born, eg, fetal alcohol
syndrome. Tricky.
I agree
 
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