The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[Porque77]

One mark of a false prophet, according to the Tanakh itself, was for one to tell that the entire Law must be followed. If you actually believe in the Bible as you say, then you are being quite inconsistent.

Hello Friend...

"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16)

 

[metis]

Hello Friend...

"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16)

And you seriously are trying to convince me by just quoting Christian scriptures on this matter? Instead of just doing that, you actually might take a look at what's found in what you call the "O.T." in regards to the Law-- all 613 of them: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Now, you are going to have to decide whether you believe in your Bible or not, and that obviously includes the "O.T.". What is found there is quite clear, namely that if one is Jewish, they must follow the Law as best as they can. OTOH, you, as a gentile, are not bound by the Law.

 

[Porque77]

And you seriously are trying to convince me by just quoting Christian scriptures on this matter? Instead of just doing that, you actually might take a look at what's found in what you call the "O.T." in regards to the Law-- all 613 of them.......

I see you do not understand that the law that was actually given to Moses are the commandments that Jesus taught us in the Gospel, and not the commandments of the Old Testament that commanded death sentences, wars and others laws that weren't merciful. All commandments of Jesus are merciful. And these are the commandments that God had really given to Moses.

After Moses, the scribes changed the law of God into a lie, as the prophet Jeremiah says:

"How is it that you 'say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false." (Jer 8: 8)

And then Jesus came to teach us the Law that really had been given to Moses. That is why the apostle John says that the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ because God gave the law to Moses but the scribes changed the Lawl, and Jesus Christ came to teach the true Law and the true commandments of God, which are the Law of grace.

 

[Flankerl]

So the scribes who changed the law, kept the memory that they changed the law alive and their disciples disciples then even wrote it down for everyone to see.

So much logic.
Quite literally "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"-tier.

 

[metis]

I see you do not understand that the law that was actually given to Moses are the commandments that Jesus taught us in the Gospel, and not the commandments of the Old Testament that commanded death sentences, wars and others laws that weren't merciful. All commandments of Jesus are merciful. And these are the commandments that God had really given to Moses.

After Moses, the scribes changed the law of God into a lie, as the prophet Jeremiah says:

"How is it that you 'say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false." (Jer 8: 8)

And then Jesus came to teach us the Law that really had been given to Moses. That is why the apostle John says that the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ because God gave the law to Moses but the scribes changed the Lawl, and Jesus Christ came to teach the true Law and the true commandments of God, which are the Law of grace.

You literally have no clue what you're talking about. For just one example, show us where Jesus taught each of the 613 Laws as found in Torah. My guess is that you decided to ignore the link that I provided for you in my last post.

 

[melisaross85]

Jesus freed us from bearing the burden of the law alone because it was a burden we could not bear proven by the fact that we broke the law over and over in our lives.

The bible tells you what God's will is it is everything true and good so acts do matter but look: We were freed from certain condemnation for not following the law by Jesus's sacrifice. So why follow it? LOVE. If you love God you keep his commandments out of love for Him.

In other words love transcends consequence because love is above all things. Why else would a God who already has everything come down from heaven in the person of Jesus and die on a cross for us? He already had everything because he was God. What did he gain for it for himself? Nothing it was for our gain. When you love something you do for their gain unconditionally. So if we love God we do for Him what makes Him happy and gives him joy which is to follow His commandments.

It may appeal to the pride to believe we are good enough to be saved through our own actions but Jesus is the only good one and it is more difficult to lower our pride and humble ourselves before the Lord in Jesus name.

In Romans 2:13 there are two category of people described there are those who hear the law but dont do it and those who actually do it. It says the ones who do it will be justified. We all fall into the category of those who hear the law but don't do it. Only Jesus falls into the category of the ones who followed the law in action so only he will be justified.

Don’t forget how Jesus closes his teaching on the Law. He says: “Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven! But whoever keeps them and teaches others to do the same will be great in the kingdom of heaven.” So whoever breaks one of the least of the commandments shall be called least. But we all break even the least of the commandments so we will all be called least. Jesus is the only one who kept them so he will be called greater. So this is saying we are all considered lesser in the kingdom of heaven before Jesus and his glory and Jesus is the only one who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven because all glory praise and honor go to him, being as he is the only one who kept the commandments. It doens't mean we are can possibly keep the commandments we will break them and have to be forgiven.

Mathhew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay the tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: These ought ye have done, and not leave the other undone." Same thing as the previous chapters the Hebrew roots movement just needs a dose of humility in their interpretation perhaps. In other words we all fall under the same category as the scribes and Phariesses in that we paid the tithe of mint and anise and cummin but omitted the weightier matters of the law from our lives, judgement, mercy, and faith. These ought we all have done and not left the other undone, but only Jesus actually did these things.

 

[Porque77]

The five books of Moses come from the prophecy of Moses. Maybe not his words. I am coming to believe that many schools of thought went into the Tanakh.

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

 

[metis]

Jesus freed us from bearing the burden of the law alone because it was a burden we could not bear proven by the fact that we broke the law over and over in our lives.

The bible tells you what God's will is it is everything true and good so acts do matter but look: We were freed from certain condemnation for not following the law by Jesus's sacrifice. So why follow it? LOVE. If you love God you keep his commandments out of love for Him.

In other words love transcends consequence because love is above all things. Why else would a God who already has everything come down from heaven in the person of Jesus and die on a cross for us? He already had everything because he was God. What did he gain for it for himself? Nothing it was for our gain. When you love something you do for their gain unconditionally. So if we love God we do for Him what makes Him happy and gives him joy which is to follow His commandments.

It may appeal to the pride to believe we are good enough to be saved through our own actions but Jesus is the only good one and it is more difficult to lower our pride and humble ourselves before the Lord in Jesus name.

In Romans 2:13 there are two category of people described there are those who hear the law but dont do it and those who actually do it. It says the ones who do it will be justified. We all fall into the category of those who hear the law but don't do it. Only Jesus falls into the category of the ones who followed the law in action so only he will be justified.

Don’t forget how Jesus closes his teaching on the Law. He says: “Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven! But whoever keeps them and teaches others to do the same will be great in the kingdom of heaven.” So whoever breaks one of the least of the commandments shall be called least. But we all break even the least of the commandments so we will all be called least. Jesus is the only one who kept them so he will be called greater. So this is saying we are all considered lesser in the kingdom of heaven before Jesus and his glory and Jesus is the only one who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven because all glory praise and honor go to him, being as he is the only one who kept the commandments. It doens't mean we are can possibly keep the commandments we will break them and have to be forgiven.

Mathhew 23:23 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay the tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: These ought ye have done, and not leave the other undone." Same thing as the previous chapters the Hebrew roots movement just needs a dose of humility in their interpretation perhaps. In other words we all fall under the same category as the scribes and Phariesses in that we paid the tithe of mint and anise and cummin but omitted the weightier matters of the law from our lives, judgement, mercy, and faith. These ought we all have done and not left the other undone, but only Jesus actually did these things.

What you wrote above is fine for those whom are gentiles but not for those whom are Jews. One mark of a "false prophet", according to the Tanakh ("O.T."), is if that "prophet" said that following the Law was unnecessary. According to Torah, it was God who gave the Law and demanded that Jews follow it.

 

[Porque77]

You literally have no clue what you're talking about. For just one example, show us where Jesus taught each of the 613 Laws as found in Torah. My guess is that you decided to ignore the link that I provided for you in my last post.

Metis, you still do not understand what I am telling. You don't understand why you do not accept that the commandments God gave to Moses are not all the commandments of the Old Testament. The true commandments God gave to Moses are the commandments of the Gospel.

In the Old Testament there are written many commandments that weren't given by God, are only precepts of men, because God's Law was changed into a lie by the scribes, as the prophets tell us:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

 

[metis]

Metis, you still do not understand what I am telling. You don't understand why you do not accept that the commandments God gave to Moses are not all the commandments of the Old Testament. The true commandments God gave to Moses are the commandments of the Gospel.

In the Old Testament there are written many commandments that weren't given by God, are only precepts of men, because God's Law was changed into a lie by the scribes, as the prophets tell us:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

I understand what you are saying, but you need to understand that I and what's actually found in Torah don't agree with you.

Secondly, the issue with "the scribes" was a reference to the fact that there was no established canon during their time, so different scribes were writing all sorts of things. When you get to Jesus' time, even though the canon still had not been solidified, nevertheless certain books stood out as being more accurate. Jesus, the apostles, and Paul ended up quoting or paraphrasing many of these books, so ask yourself why they would do that if said books were so inaccurate?

Also, does your Bible contain these books or did you cut them out and thrown them into the garbage?

 

[Flankerl]

In the Old Testament there are written many commandments that weren't given by God, are only precepts of men, because God's Law was changed into a lie by the scribes, as the prophets tell us:

Still makes no sense. Why would the scribes then write down what the Prophets told?

I mean you have basic logic don't you?

 

[melisaross85]

What you wrote above is fine for those whom are gentiles but not for those whom are Jews. One mark of a "false prophet", according to the Tanakh ("O.T."), is if that "prophet" said that following the Law was unnecessary. According to Torah, it was God who gave the Law and demanded that Jews follow it.

The law is required but that is because it shows love for God to follow it and Jesus showed love for God. So in order to believe in Jesus we must do what he did which was to show love for God. We are not required to follow the law or be sent to hell for not following it.

 

[metis]

The law is required but that is because it shows love for God to follow it and Jesus showed love for God. So in order to believe in Jesus we must do what he did which was to show love for God. We are not required to follow the law or be sent to hell for not following it.

As a gentile, you can do that, but if one's Jewish, that's not an option if Torah is to be followed.

BTW, what might be even more important than "love of God" is "love for others" because most of Jesus' statements actually deal with the latter. The "Sermon on the Mount" and the "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" are cases in point.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@metis you've been around long enough to recognize a junk thread when you see one.

 

[metis]

@metis you've been around long enough to recognize a junk thread when you see one.

Well, I'm going to assume anything until I see it for myself in black & white.

 

[melisaross85]

As a gentile, you can do that, but if one's Jewish, that's not an option if Torah is to be followed.

BTW, what might be even more important than "love of God" is "love for others" because most of Jesus' statements actually deal with the latter. The "Sermon on the Mount" and the "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" are cases in point.

Jesus fullfilled the law for Jew and Gentile alike. As far as loving others being more important than loving God Jesus was asked a question similar to this and his response can be seen by the following:
Matthew 22:36-40King James Version

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[metis]

Jesus fullfilled the law for Jew and Gentile alike. As far as loving others being more important than loving God Jesus was asked a question similar to this and his response can be seen by the following:
Matthew 22:36-40King James Version

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Exactly what does "fulfill the Law" actually mean to you? IOW, the key I'm looking for is how are you using the word "fulfill" in this context?

Torah says that obeying the Law as best as one can is mandatory for a Jew, so are you saying that God condemned those who didn't but then supposedly turned around and said that it's really not that important after all?

 

[Brian Schuh]

Exactly what does "fulfill the Law" actually mean to you? IOW, the key I'm looking for is how are you using the word "fulfill" in this context?

Torah says that obeying the Law as best as one can is mandatory for a Jew, so are you saying that God condemned those who didn't but then supposedly turned around and said that it's really not that important after all?

I haven't checked your profile, but I see that you know something about Torah.

As you know, the Seven Laws of Noah were given for Gentiles and the 613 mitzvot (+ 7 rabbinical injunctions) were given to Jews. (Interesting that there are exactly 620 words in the Hebrew of the Ten Commandments, Exodus 20.)

I always want to laugh when I hear a Gentile say, "We aren't under the law anymore." I feel like saying, honey you never were under the law.

Acts 15 hints at a small set of laws required of Gentiles, although they aren't required to keep all the Torah.

Many Christians would read Jesus as saying, "I haven't come to abolish the law, but to abolish the law." They take the word fulfill as synonymous with abolish. In actuality, Jesus said, "I haven't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill (uphold, keep, defend and teach) the law." A law isn't fulfilled until everyone keeps it. That's what fulfill means.

Jesus also said, "Whoever breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of God." The Rabbis taught that the least commandment is to chase the mother hen away before taking her eggs. I only buy range fed chicken eggs (kosher as well.)

Obviously, even though Jesus (Yeshua) was in disagreement with many rabbis and priests of his time, he was well studied in Torah and was very much a Torah keeping and teaching Jew.

It was St. Paul who taught the lie that the law was abolished, it wasn't Jesus (Yeshua.)

 

[metis]

Obviously, even though Jesus (Yeshua) was in disagreement with many rabbis and priests of his time, he was well studied in Torah and was very much a Torah keeping and teaching Jew.

It was St. Paul who taught the lie that the law was abolished, it wasn't Jesus (Yeshua.)

I know you probably will undoubtedly not agree with me, although I really have no desire to debate it, I do not agree with those two lines above.

First of all, we really do not know how well studied Jesus may or may not have been. We have to remember that the gospels were written several decades after he was crucified, therefore how much were his own words versus how much were words put into his mouth is virtually impossible to determine. Did he actually know Hebrew or did he just have a good memory about what was read out of the Tanakh while at synagogue? We have no books by him, so we really can't tell.

On that same paragraph, because of how things are sorta put together in a rather contradictory manner, I believe that Jesus may well have taken a very liberal position vis-a-vis the Law that went further left than Hillel but was not unheard of in eretz Israel, especially in the northern coastal areas. This shows up when asked which is "the greatest Commandment". Because of this, he could claim to still follow the Law but then leave others to say that he actually was subverting the Law. Even though I have no desire to debate this, I can clarify it if you'd like.

Paul was quite an intellect, and I have at times referred to him as "the Way's theologian". According to Acts, he met with Peter and the others on at least three occasions, and if he was so supposedly out of the loop, especially with his hostile background, why would they give him the time of day if he wasn't saying things that they largely were willing to go along with [rhetorical question, btw]?

What I think may have happened with Paul was the recognition and the solution to a very serious problem, namely how can one combine two groups (gentile & Jew) operating under two very different sets of rules (Noachide v Mosaiic), and still remain as "one body"? I think he realized that it really couldn't work out, and that he gradually convinced the Twelve that they had to go in the direction of viewing Jesus as being superior to the Law. When reading Acts and the epistles attributed to Paul, keep that in mind and I think you'll see what I mean even if you decide you can't agree with me.

Take care and thanks for your response.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I know you probably will undoubtedly not agree with me, although I really have no desire to debate it, I do not agree with those two lines above.

First of all, we really do not know how well studied Jesus may or may not have been. We have to remember that the gospels were written several decades after he was crucified, therefore how much were his own words versus how much were words put into his mouth is virtually impossible to determine. Did he actually know Hebrew or did he just have a good memory about what was read out of the Tanakh while at synagogue? We have no books by him, so we really can't tell.

On that same paragraph, because of how things are sorta put together in a rather contradictory manner, I believe that Jesus may well have taken a very liberal position vis-a-vis the Law that went further left than Hillel but was not unheard of in eretz Israel, especially in the northern coastal areas. This shows up when asked which is "the greatest Commandment". Because of this, he could claim to still follow the Law but then leave others to say that he actually was subverting the Law. Even though I have no desire to debate this, I can clarify it if you'd like.

Paul was quite an intellect, and I have at times referred to him as "the Way's theologian". According to Acts, he met with Peter and the others on at least three occasions, and if he was so supposedly out of the loop, especially with his hostile background, why would they give him the time of day if he wasn't saying things that they largely were willing to go along with [rhetorical question, btw]?

What I think may have happened with Paul was the recognition and the solution to a very serious problem, namely how can one combine two groups (gentile & Jew) operating under two very different sets of rules (Noachide v Mosaiic), and still remain as "one body"? I think he realized that it really couldn't work out, and that he gradually convinced the Twelve that they had to go in the direction of viewing Jesus as being superior to the Law. When reading Acts and the epistles attributed to Paul, keep that in mind and I think you'll see what I mean even if you decide you can't agree with me.

Take care and thanks for your response.

About the historicity of the gospels, it is irrelevant. Many Jewish people people believe it to be fiction. When I study fiction, I suspend disbelief and take the story and characters as presented. Then I can anaylize the story. If you study the gospels the way you would Moby Dick or Shakespeare, then you see that you are studying the character Jesus and it no longer matters if there ever was such a person.

With that being said, there is evidence within the story that the character Jesus was learned.