The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[Porque77]

So, your accept that Moses did not write Genesis. Right?
Regards
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Hello, The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law, and this is wrotten in the Old testament.

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes"(Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

 

[Porque77]

So, your accept that Moses did not write Genesis. Right?
Regards
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law, and this is wrotten in the Old testament.

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes"(Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

Dear friends, I have studied the writings of the prophets, and I found several quotes that make me think what happened to God's Law.

The writings of the prophets tell us that God's law was changed.

The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes"(Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us:

The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

[Muffled]

Hello, Simplelogic. That is not so. The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law, and this is wrotten in the Old testament.

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes"(Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

I don't believe that means that the scribes changed scripture but simply wrote commentary about it. It is called the Talmud and has been written in since 200 BCE.

 

[Flankerl]

So Jeremiah was around when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonian Empire, 586 BCE.

The Mishnah was compiled around the 2nd Century CE.


Hm something doesn't seem to fit.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Prophet Jeremiah saw the bloody butcher house the Temple had become, and exclaimed that they should eat the meat from sacrificed animals. I need a concordance to cite the passage.
An example of many examples of the later prophets seeing injustice in the observance of Moses. I never claimed that all the prophets were absolutely consistent.
About Genesis. It is just Hebrew folk legends about Abraham and his family. Genesis with the first 12 chapters of Exodus together is a coherent piece of literature. Tradition has it that it was dictated to Moses by God. Probably was oral tradition till someone wrote it down. I just don't know much more than that right now.

So the folklore is being presented as Word of Revelation on Moses by the scribes/clergy just to make religion of Moses as racial. It is not fair. Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I just reviewed my principles of faith. The written Torah and oral Torah (Talmud) was through the prophecy of Moses which he received from God. This doesn't necessarily imply that Moses wrote the actual Torah. The actual books of Torah are something one can hold and memorize, the prophecy of Moses is the actual Torah and it is not tangible, not something that one can touch or memorize, it is a spiritual understanding. It is possible that this perfect prophecy suffered in the process of being written down and transmitted generation to generation to us today.

So did Moses write the Torah? Maybe not, but did the prophecy of Moses inspire the Torah? Without a doubt. And it is the spiritual understanding that is actually Torah, not some dusty old manuscript. Make sense?

In other word it is a confirmation that Word Revealed on Moses has been changed by the scribes/clergy. Right?
Regards

 

[Brian Schuh]

In other word it is a confirmation that Word Revealed on Moses has been changed by the scribes/clergy. Right?
Regards

Well, when it comes to Oral Torah which wasn't written down in Talmud until 40 generations after Moses, passed on by oral tradition, I can't help but believe that it doesn't look much like what Moses originally taught.

The same with the written Torah, but not to the same extent.

If someone keeps the laws of God according to Torah and Talmud, dies and finds out it was wrong, there is no penalty in this life or the next, but if one keeps the laws of God not according to the tradition and is wrong, there is a penalty, or so it is taught.

 

[paarsurrey]

Moses is not mentioned in any archeological findings dated to his supposed time. No Egyptian inscriptions mention him either. But I doubt lack of evidence is proof of nonexistence.
I believe Moses existed, he performed miracles with the finger of God. But, the argument is completely circular and does not stand for any weight with a non Muslim, because my belief is from the Quran.
You are right, scribes could have really put an effort to pass down his message to us as much as they can. We may even have an original writing of a particular line of scribes who periodically wrote the Pentateuch down for us. But it has at least 4 authors or schools of thought. Moses never wrote it. That's from a scriptural point of view.
But the Quran speaks of a revelation called Torah. We don't know if it was ever written down. There is no evidence to say aye or nay. We generally expect any scripture to claim authorship and reference. The Quran calls itself the Quran. Also it says its Gods word. The Pentateuch does not claim for authorship, nor does it claim reference. It does not call itself Torah. The name was given by someone because it is the only appropriate name since they would have definitely heard about it.
That does not mean it cannot contain any of Gods wisdom or words.
Nevertheless there are at least 4 authors to the Pentateuch. This is called the Wellhausen hypothesis. You should read up on that. Of course there are other arguments that say there are more authors. All of it born out of the non reconcilable inconsistencies. Oh there are many theories, some so viable too. But none, to show that Moses wrote it. This faith has been long deemed impossible.

I agree with the following, I have coloured in magenta above:

1. Moses never wrote it (the Torah/The Pentateuch).
   
2. We generally expect any scripture to claim authorship and reference.
3. The Quran calls itself the Quran. Also it says its Gods word.
4. The Pentateuch does not claim for authorship, nor does it claim reference.
5. It does not call itself Torah.
6. The name (Torah/The Pentateuch) was given by someone because it is the only appropriate name since they would have definitely heard about it.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The five books of Moses come from the prophecy of Moses. Maybe not his words. I am coming to believe that many schools of thought went into the Tanakh. Over 40 authors contributed to the Tanakh, and many of these authors represent not individuals but schools of thought. For example, Isaiah was an individual, but his school of disciples wrote the book of Isaiah, possibly over 2 or 3 generations. I am familiar with the documentary hypothesis and plan to investigate it further. But the prophecy of Moses was taught to over a million Hebrews over 40 years. And 4 or more schools of thought wrote some of it down as the Torah, but it stemmed from the prophesying of Moses. Prophecy as in how one should live his life, not as in predicting the future. The teaching of Moses inspired the Torah.

In other words it is a confirmation which Quran has wrote about Torah that it has being changed by the Judaism scribes and clergy:

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=2&verse=79

[5:13]And indeed Allah did take a covenant from the children of Israel; and We raised among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, ‘Surely, I am with you. If you observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat, and believe in My Messengers and support them, and lend to Allah a goodly loan, I will remove your evils from you and admit you into Gardens beneath which streams flow. But whoso from among you disbelieves thereafter does indeed stray away from the right path.’ [5:14]So, because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them, and have hardened their hearts. They pervert the words from theirproperplaces and have forgotten agoodpart of that with which they were exhorted. And thou wilt not cease to discover treachery on their part, exceptina few of them. So pardon them and turn awayfrom them. Surely, Allah loves those who do good.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=5&verse=13​

Regards

 

[firedragon]

I agree with the following, I have coloured in magenta above:

1. Moses never wrote it (the Torah/The Pentateuch).
   
2. We generally expect any scripture to claim authorship and reference.
3. The Quran calls itself the Quran. Also it says its Gods word.
4. The Pentateuch does not claim for authorship, nor does it claim reference.
5. It does not call itself Torah.
6. The name (Torah/The Pentateuch) was given by someone because it is the only appropriate name since they would have definitely heard about it.

Regards

1. Have you known of any archeological findings that cites Moses dating to his time?
2. Do you agree with him that there are Egyptian inscriptions about Moses? What is it?
3. So you disagree with the documentary hypothesis! Why and whats your theory? Whats your explanation for the differences in theological and writing styles etc between Yahwehists, Priestly sources, Deutoronomy and Elohists?

 

[Brian Schuh]

The Deuteronomist History, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges (possibly Ruth as well) Samuel and Kings seem to be a coherent work of literature. Joshua seems to have been written to fill in a historical gap. This would indicate to some that it was written together during the Babylonian captivity.

King Josiah found a book of the law, which had become rare. This seems to have been incorporated into the canon

Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah were one work.

Ezra compiled the final Bible as we have it now. But it obviously was redacted many times, edited as well with many different hands in it.

At least 40 different authors and schools of thought contributed to this finalized canon.

I don't see how any could disagree.

 

[Porque77]

The Deuteronomist History, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges (possibly Ruth as well) Samuel and Kings seem to be a coherent work of literature. Joshua seems to have been written to fill in a historical gap. This would indicate to some that it was written together during the Babylonian captivity.

King Josiah found a book of the law, which had become rare. This seems to have been incorporated into the canon

Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah were one work.

Ezra compiled the final Bible as we have it now. But it obviously was redacted many times, edited as well with many different hands in it.

At least 40 different authors and schools of thought contributed to this finalized canon.

I don't see how any could disagree.

For this reason, the prophets wrote:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

And Jesus said to the Jews:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us:

The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

[metis]

For this reason, the prophets wrote:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

And Jesus said to the Jews:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us:

The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Just remember that all scriptures in all religions are written form a subjective, not an objective, perspective.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't believe that means that the scribes changed scripture but simply wrote commentary about it. It is called the Talmud and has been written in since 200 BCE.

^ that's embarrassing

 

[Porque77]

Just remember that all scriptures in all religions are written form a subjective, not an objective, perspective.

If everything is subjective, then where is the true Word of God literally written?

What you say, Jesus did not say, nor the apostles said that.

The Gospel contains the true commandments of God that we must keep to enter into life

 

[Jabar]

If everything is subjective, then where is the true Word of God literally written?

What you say, Jesus did not say, nor the apostles said that.

The Gospel contains the true commandments of God that we must keep to enter into life

The true Word Of God in the Bible is everything that fits with the true Word Of God´s revelation, the Qur´an, the final revelation for mankind.

 

[Porque77]

Hello, Simplelogic. That is not so. The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the God's Law, and this is wrotten in the Old testament.

The Mosaic covenant and law were given by God, but after the years and centuries, the prophets tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So tell us the prophets:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes"(Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

I don't believe that means that the scribes changed scripture but simply wrote commentary about it. It is called the Talmud and has been written in since 200 BCE.

The prophet Jeremiah speaks not about commentary ...

The prophet Jeremiah says that the scribes had changed God's law:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

 

[metis]

If everything is subjective, then where is the true Word of God literally written?

What you say, Jesus did not say, nor the apostles said that.

The Gospel contains the true commandments of God that we must keep to enter into life

Who says there supposedly must be a "true Word of God"? Why assume that? What evidence is there for that? How could we possibly tell that with any assurance whatsoever that it's correct?

As I'm sure you have, I read a great many books over my 71 years, and I do not put blind faith in any of them, no matter how well written they may be. The Bible is a good book, but it's not the only book.

 

[serp777]

If everything is subjective, then where is the true Word of God literally written?

What you say, Jesus did not say, nor the apostles said that.

The Gospel contains the true commandments of God that we must keep to enter into life

Wow such bold claims here. Truly massive assertions on your part. Where is your evidence that the gospel contains the "true commandments" of God? Is it also true that you shall never use polyester clothing? Should doctors heal sick people on the sabbath?

 

[Muffled]

The prophet Jeremiah speaks not about commentary ...

The prophet Jeremiah says that the scribes had changed God's law:

"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

I believe saying they changed it did not also say where they changed it. all scribes were under an injunction to preserve the Torah and even Jesus says not one jot will be lost. However Jesus did say that the Pharisees changed the law by their traditions and I believe that is what Jeremiah is talking about.