The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[metis]

internet forums like these are a marvellous invention. Centuries have passed with very little conversation between Christians and Jews, but now suddenly anyone may speak with anyone else instantaneously from 12,000 miles away! So much insulation is gone all of a sudden.

Yes, and this is often complicated by the fact that many come here with a particular agenda to push, often at the expense of others.

 

[Prophet]

Its all my own opinion first of all. The verses I quoted except for two are in wisdom literature. Speaking against the law is irreligious, because the Law is a dispensation of the 'Holy Spirit'. A Christian doesn't speak against the Holy Spirit. An irreligious person might, so its only a religious reason not to do it. Aside from that I think the law was advanced for its time and has been kept relevant or has stayed relevant. It is a valuable tool both for historical purposes and for many others.

Law, at best, is written to provide recourse for a society when faced with individuals who need fear of negative consequences to act as if they were good, to protect those who cannot protect themselves. When combined with religion, it adds to its repertoire fear of fictitious punishments that are to occur in the afterlife or to the nth generation. I will reiterate that none of these punishments or rewards can possibly inspire anything but self-interested action or "filthy rags".

Men of wealth and influence have always manipulated law against the poor. This state has persisted since before ancient Israel and will persist long after the fall of modern day USA, era and culture do not matter. So what would you say to men who have stood against the law where they felt it to be unjust? Would you call Dalai Lama irreligious? Or Gandhi? Or Martin Luther King, Jr.? OR JESUS? Aren't these great men, proponents of civil disobedience who stood for what the law was supposed to do, irreligious by a definition you put forth?

Jews feel a duty to hate you? That is naive. Don't believe it unless they throw real rocks. That's what I think.

You think ALL Jews are like Metis here deep down and I'm naive?

 

[Prophet]

Would you say that OT decrees that Israel commit genocide over conquered territories were "dispensations of the Holy Spirit"? By your own rationale, speaking out against state sponsored genocide can be judged irreligious.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Law, at best, is written to provide recourse for a society when faced with individuals who need fear of negative consequences to act as if they were good, to protect those who cannot protect themselves. When combined with religion, it adds to its repertoire fear of fictitious punishments that are to occur in the afterlife or to the nth generation. I will reiterate that none of these punishments or rewards can possibly inspire anything but self-interested action or "filthy rags".

Men of wealth and influence have always manipulated law against the poor. This state has persisted since before ancient Israel and will persist long after the fall of modern day USA, era and culture do not matter. So what would you say to men who have stood against the law where they felt it to be unjust? Would you call Dalai Lama irreligious? Or Gandhi? Or Martin Luther King, Jr.? OR JESUS? Aren't these great men, proponents of civil disobedience who stood for what the law was supposed to do, irreligious by a definition you put forth?

I apologize for not being clearer, but other laws aren't necessarily the same. The law of Moses is written not only as a code like other laws, but it is a way of training your conscience. Analogy: Kung Fu is not merely a martial art but a way of living. It is a value system. Moses law is to the casual observer merely a book of statutes but actually it is written to formally train a conscience, and to Jesus and John it is a dispensation of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is adamant about the permanence of this set of laws.

You think ALL Jews are like Metis here deep down and I'm naive?

We're all naive, but yes with few exceptions. I've met a fair sampling of Jewish people of many kinds. The good is extremely good. The bad is limited. The first thing to know about Jews is that many believe in God, and the second thing is that they are decent generally because of their training. I have many true stories I could tell about Jews that I have observed by coincidence or of coworkers, both good, bad and funny.

 

[Prophet]

I apologize for not being clearer, but other laws aren't necessarily the same. The law of Moses is written not only as a code like other laws, but it is a way of training your conscience. Analogy: Kung Fu is not merely a martial art but a way of living. It is a value system. Moses law is to the casual observer merely a book of statutes but actually it is written to formally train a conscience, and to Jesus and John it is a dispensation of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is adamant about the permanence of this set of laws.

How is not raping or murdering because of fear of execution anything more than the same selfishness which causes rape and murder? I agree that you are training your conscience by fear conditioning. I disagree that this training is good.

This is at least the second time that you've name-dropped Jesus on me as if I should automatically accept any views you could attribute to him. Resting your argument on the authority of another is a fundamentalist stand in for presenting an actual rationale. Googling "Jesus and law" will bring up MANY verses where he not only challenges the law of Moses, but presents his rationale for doing so. Many of those verses have already been posted in this thread.

And this excuse of special status for Mosaic law lets Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, and MLK off the hook. Jesus is still irreligious. And it is fairly naive to think that Jews are the only civilization with laws meant to mold the conscience.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You are in a discussion about Christianity, so Jesus isn't a name drop, and you know it. How does Kung Fu teach anything but fighting? There's your analogue. Jesus says Moses laws are special, so in Christianity they are.

 

[Prophet]

...and I just stopped enjoying our debate.

 

[Porque77]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the scribes were changing the Bible. The writing could be extra-biblical.

Hi Muffled. What the prophet says is that God's Law had been changed by the scribes. And the Jewish scribes wrote the laws of the Old Testament. Let us remember the words of the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. For this reason, the Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Jesus came to teach us the true commandments of God.

 

[Prophet]

You are in a discussion about Christianity, so Jesus isn't a name drop, and you know it. How does Kung Fu teach anything but fighting? There's your analogue. Jesus says Moses laws are special, so in Christianity they are.

Have you ever considered the possibility that others have taken their own teachings and attributed them to Jesus to give them weight? If beings become so gullible as to believe things without rationale by the mere invocation of a famous name, wouldn't there be MUCH to gain by falsely attributing your teachings to said famous name?

I think you should stop using the phrase "killing the Buddha." as I think you have a twisted idea of what it means in its original context. When you blindly accept authority and teach others to do the same you demonstrate that you still seek Buddha in words or teachers outside of yourself and still have no understanding of underlying principles. When you meet Buddha on the road in the form of Jesus' teachings, you worship him, you kill nothing. He gets to hold all the answers and withhold all understanding, making you powerless. You are doing the logical opposite of "killing the Buddha".

 

[CMike]

Hi Muffled. What the prophet says is that God's Law had been changed by the scribes. And the Jewish scribes wrote the laws of the Old Testament. Let us remember the words of the prophets:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. For this reason, the Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Jesus came to teach us the true commandments of God.

The commandments of G-D are in the Torah.

Jesus, falsely acted like he was god, and wrote his own commandments.

And it's rather rediculous that you quote Isaiah, a jewish prophet, take his words out of context, and try to use them to attack what is in the Torah.

Either you believe in jewish scriptures or you don't.

The Torah, the five books of Moses, are far more important than prophets.

You make no logical sense.

 

[CMike]

While you generalize, I have independently discovered that some Jews actually ARE vicious... just like every other group of people. I feel I can demonstrate rather clearly that some Jews here are not at all interested in being my friend by their own testimony. If my memory serves right, one even gave an interpretation of Torah law that defends their "duty" to hate me.

Citations please? Copy ande paste works.

 

[CMike]

Would you say that OT decrees that Israel commit genocide over conquered territories were "dispensations of the Holy Spirit"? By your own rationale, speaking out against state sponsored genocide can be judged irreligious.

I don't know what the OT is?

However, there were some nations such as Amalek that were so evil that they were destroyed as commanded by G-D.

The jews just came out of Egypt. All the nations knew of the plagues yet the Amalekites attacked them anyway.

Also Amalek displayed the first time that jews were targeted to be killed just because they were jews.

Amalek was the grandson of Esau. He hated the jews, and wanted to destroy them. When they were in Egypt as slaves there was no need to in his eyes.

However, when they got out of Egypt, that was his chance to try and annihilate the jews.

I realize nothing is going to get through to you. And I am not writting this in the hopes that you will "see the light"?

 

[CMike]

How is not raping or murdering because of fear of execution anything more than the same selfishness which causes rape and murder? I agree that you are training your conscience by fear conditioning. I disagree that this training is good.

This is at least the second time that you've name-dropped Jesus on me as if I should automatically accept any views you could attribute to him. Resting your argument on the authority of another is a fundamentalist stand in for presenting an actual rationale. Googling "Jesus and law" will bring up MANY verses where he not only challenges the law of Moses, but presents his rationale for doing so. Many of those verses have already been posted in this thread.

And this excuse of special status for Mosaic law lets Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, and MLK off the hook. Jesus is still irreligious. And it is fairly naive to think that Jews are the only civilization with laws meant to mold the conscience.

Moses didn't create laws. G-D did.

Therefore, jesus was challenging G-D. G-D wins.

Also, jesus said that if someone doesn't accept him as their savious they should be brought before him in slain.

Many hundreds of thousands of jews were mass murdered in the name of jesus.

Guess how many christians were murdered in the name of Judaism?

 

[Prophet]

Citations please? Copy ande paste works.

Still too much work for someone who won't appreciate it. You believe based upon ancient writings that God, the cause of love, could order a brutal genocide because a people Israel had a dispute with were "evil".

Didn't Nazis say the same of you?

 

[CMike]

Still too much work for someone who won't appreciate it. You believe based upon ancient writings that God, the cause of love, could order a brutal genocide because a people Israel had a dispute with were "evil".

Didn't Nazis say the same of you?

 

[Prophet]

Yes I could make a similar frustrated gesture in looking down at someone who excuses genocide in his favor and denounces it when it is against him.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Have you ever considered the possibility that others have taken their own teachings and attributed them to Jesus to give them weight? If beings become so gullible as to believe things without rationale by the mere invocation of a famous name, wouldn't there be MUCH to gain by falsely attributing your teachings to said famous name?

Yes I personally do consider that a possibility.

I think you should stop using the phrase "killing the Buddha." as I think you have a twisted idea of what it means in its original context. When you blindly accept authority and teach others to do the same you demonstrate that you still seek Buddha in words or teachers outside of yourself and still have no understanding of underlying principles. When you meet Buddha on the road in the form of Jesus' teachings, you worship him, you kill nothing. He gets to hold all the answers and withhold all understanding, making you powerless. You are doing the logical opposite of "killing the Buddha".

I hear you. In repy to your question of why I don't object Jewish people criticizing Jesus, I'm trying to say that it is counter-productive for me to try and defend Jesus. As far as I'm concerned it is ok to criticize Jesus, and Jesus himself said so. Its ok to criticize Christianity. Jesus did say not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, so Christians should not criticize the Laws of Moses. Another thing Christians are supposed to do is to avoid judging each other since the Holy Spirit is believed to dwell in Christians. If Jews find fault with Christianity there is no religious reason to oppose them on that, and they should have their say. It is Christians excluding Christians on basis of beliefs that is inconsistent with Jesus teachings.

 

[Prophet]

Yes I personally do consider that a possibility.

It does not show in your reasoning.

I hear you. In repy to your question of why I don't object Jewish people criticizing Jesus, I'm trying to say that it is counter-productive for me to try and defend Jesus. As far as I'm concerned it is ok to criticize Jesus, and Jesus himself said so. Its ok to criticize Christianity. Jesus did say not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which includes the Law. Another thing Christians are supposed to do is to avoid judging each other, but Jews aren't Christians. If Jews find fault with Christianity there is no religious reason to oppose them on that.

I can put it a lot simpler. You hide your position that Judaism is a false religion, and Christianity is the "salt of the world", putting you in the role of undercover proselytizer to all these Jews who'd become instantly offended the moment your position became clear. And you ARE clear: False religions can't deal with insults or controversy, and neither can Judaism.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I can put it a lot simpler. You hide your position that Judaism is a false religion, and Christianity is the "salt of the world", putting you in the role of undercover proselytizer to all these Jews who'd become instantly offended the moment your position became clear. And you ARE clear: False religions can't deal with insults or controversy, and neither can Judaism.

Interesting. Its a good thing that it is well known that I'm not very bright, and nobody pays much attention to my opinions. You are acting like a crazy person though, and you are completely wrong by the way. In addition you have made false representation of me personally, and I demand you retract your claims.

 

[Prophet]

You represent yourself through your patronizing ideas. If you don't think Jews' feet should be held to the fire, yet Christians' feet should, you betray your belief that Christianity is superior to Judaism. For all my tugging on Moses' beard, I never said or implied any belief like THAT.