The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[John Wesley]

First of all, the Koran says the Bible (e.g. the Torah and the Injil or Old and New Testaments) is sent from Allah. In Sura 5:50-51 (46-47) Allah says,
“And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to
follow in their footsteps, confirming that
which was revealed before him andWe
bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is
guidance and a light, confirming that which
was (revealed) before it in the Torah -- a
guidance and an admonition unto those who
ward off evil. Let the People of the Gospel
judge by that which Allah hath revealed
therein.Whoso judgeth not by that which
Allah hath revealed, such are evil-livers.”" Your reply contradicts the Koran, as it says we should doubt what Allah has revealed. Secondly, since Allah says he sent the Bible to us, thus making the Bible the words of Allah, we should also remember that the Koran says the words of Allah cannot be changed. It says in Sura 10:64: "There is no changing the words of Allah," (See also Sura 6:115). So the idea that the Bible has been changed contradicts the Koran. Lastly, the many ancient copies of the bible translated into other languages (Georgian, Armenian, etc. in 300 AD), when compared with the Bibles we have today, show that the Bible has not changed. Most importantly, the discovery of the 2,100 year old Dead Sea Scrolls in 1948 by Arab Bedouins, when compared to the Bible we have today, shows the Bible has not been changed. Since the Koran was written 600 years after the BIble was completed, and the Koran affirms the Bible in numerous places as mentioned above, we should not be in doubt of it.

 

[BigRed]

Dear Porque77,
Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

BigRed

 

[CMike]

You want me to accept all the laws of the Old Testament as if all those laws were God's Law. However, you do not accept what the prophets say: that God's law was changed by the scribes. The prophets say so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

G-D is saying beware of false scribes and don't follow them.

However, the five books of Moses are from G-D, and the prophets were written by the individual prophet.

They weren't false scribes.

 

[metis]

You want me to accept all the laws of the Old Testament as if all those laws were God's Law. However, you do not accept what the prophets say: that God's law was changed by the scribes. The prophets say so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).





What does not make sense is have to accept, forcibly, the laws that are totally contrary to the commandments of the Gospel.

Jesus said this:
"Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old". (Matthew 13:52)

It is intellectually dishonest for you to say that what's in the Tanakh is unreliable and then quote from that same Tanakh to try and score points. You cannot have it both ways. Secondly, by quoting just certain sentences, the context of the quote is missing, so whom the quote is referring to is not indicated.

 

[RabbiO]

It is intellectually dishonest for you to say that what's in the Tanakh is unreliable and then quote from that same Tanakh to try and score points. You cannot have it both ways. Secondly, by quoting just certain sentences, the context of the quote is missing, so whom the quote is referring to is not indicated.

Since Porque has already stated, in reply to me, that context doesn't matter -- and apparently neither does totally accurate translation - I suspect your post will fall on deaf ears.

 

[metis]

Since Porque has already stated, in reply to me, that context doesn't matter -- and apparently neither does totally accurate translation - I suspect your post will fall on deaf ears.

I don't have much doubt that you're right.

 

[CMike]

Just for Christians.

 

[Porque77]

It is intellectually dishonest for you to say that what's in the Tanakh is unreliable and then quote from that same Tanakh to try and score points. You cannot have it both ways.

From the scriptures, we can consider all that relates to the truth.

One thing are the prophets and another thing is the laws of the Old Testament. What they tell us the prophets is related to what the Gospel tells us ... And what the Evagelio tells us is that the Jews had changed the law and taught the precepts of men.

Here I put what the prophets say and also what Jesus tells us. The prophets say that the Jewish scribes had changed the law of God:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees they were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

 

[CMike]

What's is in the tanach was not changed.

The Torah is from G-d and prophets are from the prophets.

 

[CMike]

The Torah can not be changed see Deuteronomy 13:1z

 

[Porque77]

What's is in the tanach was not changed.

The Torah is from G-d and prophets are from the prophets.

The Torah can not be changed see Deuteronomy 13:1z

The prophets do not agree with you. And Jesus either. The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the law of God. And so, Jesus Christ (Jesus Christ is God) came to restore the God's Law. Then Jesus gives us the true Law of God.

The true Law of God taught by Jesus Christ says so:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

 

[CMike]

The prophets do not agree with you. And Jesus either. The prophets tell us that the scribes had changed the law of God. And so, Jesus Christ (Jesus Christ is God) came to restore the God's Law. Then Jesus gives us the true Law of God.

And who were the scribes that changed jewish law? Chrisitans.

Jewish law comes from the five books of Moses, which comes from G-D.

The true Law of God taught by Jesus Christ says so:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

What jesus thought about jewish law couldn't be more irrelevant to jews.

Jewish law as stated in the five books of Moses can not be changed in any manner.

The fact that jesus even tried, makes it clear that he was anti-G-D and anti-jewish law.

Deuterenomy 13

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

It seems he couldn't that right either. It doesn't say "Thou shall not kill", it says "thou shall not murder". Thre is a very signficant difference.


And no rich people don't have to sell everything they have and give it to the poor. Then they become poor too. That is rather rediculous.Sounds like jesus was a communist.

Rich people are supposed to give zaddakah, money to charity. Rich people can help a lot more people if they remain rich.

I would like to see the multi million dollar churches sell all their property and assets and give it to the poor. Aren't they hypocritical by not doing so?

After all that's what jesus said they should do. Isn't it?

 

[Flankerl]

I dont get why people answer to this.

OP shows the classic "only i know the truth and have to tell it everyone that they are evil"-syndrome.

- Bold writing? check
- huge font size? check
- vastly coloured posts?(more than two colours) check

 

[metis]

From the scriptures, we can consider all that relates to the truth.

One thing are the prophets and another thing is the laws of the Old Testament. What they tell us the prophets is related to what the Gospel tells us ... And what the Evagelio tells us is that the Jews had changed the law and taught the precepts of men.

Here I put what the prophets say and also what Jesus tells us. The prophets say that the Jewish scribes had changed the law of God:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees they were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

Again, your post is nonsensical because you're pickling and choosing what you think is authentic and which is not with no base to choose from. Secondly, you seemingly are unaware of the fact that many books found in the Tanakh were still in the process of being written and the canon hadn't yet been decided. The books eventually chosen consist of the same canon that Christians use, plus the wording is mostly the same. If the Law is supposedly so misrepresented in Tanakh, why did the church choose to use it, pretty much word for word, and why did Jesus and the apostles quote from it?

So, when you continue to try to delegitimize the Law itself as found in the Tanakh, you also undermine your own faith tradition.

 

[Porque77]

And who were the scribes that changed jewish law? Chrisitans.

No, they were Jews. The prophet Jeremiah says so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

Jewish law comes from the five books of Moses, which comes from G-D.

Many Old Testament laws are contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is God.

All the commandments of the old testament contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ, are not true Law of God.

 

[CMike]

No, they were Jews. The prophet Jeremiah says so:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)
Many Old Testament laws are contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is God.

All the commandments of the old testament contrary to the commandments of Jesus Christ, are not true Law of God.

That's because the Torah and G-D in the Torah couldn't care less about the rantings of jesus.

The false pen of the scribes probably refers to the christians.

The five books of Moses comes from G-D, and the prophets comes from the individual prophets.

There are no scribes, other than the false ones of the christians.

 

[Muffled]

.


Actually it does affect me.

IMO the great hatred of jews in the christian bible has contibuted to christians mass murdering and torturing jews.

I saw no hate for Jews in the Bible other than those who were enemies. I believe those who called themselves Christian and persecuted Jews did not do so by Jesus but by way of the devil.

 

[Muffled]

I think you are correct about that hatred and add that the hatred came because the roman authorities felt threatened by judaism. Christians inherited some wild rumours about Jews and about the law, but I don't think those rumours could have survived had they been taught about the law. Somebody left that out! So what do you think is the solution? I think that when Christians get a reasonable sense of the law as it pertains to Christians, then it will fix things. That will be good for everybody. Christians will be less reliant upon Paul and more willing to deal with antisemitism, and Christians will have more reasonable living conditions instead of extremes of puritanism and hedonism.

If you are speaking of the inquisition, I believe it was inherently evil and definitely not Christian in anything other than people claiming to be Christian.

We are already not reliant upon Paul since we rely on Jesus but since Paul spoke the words jesus gave him, I don't see any problem with him either.

I believe in puritanism. What good is a defiled religion?

 

[Muffled]

keep clapping

No they weren't threatened by Judaism spiritually either. The Judaic faith had seen no more prophets according to the rabbinic accounts and Christianity had just announced that a "son of God" had sacrificed himself for the sins of the people - and it was Eastern Christianity that was forming a threat to Rome, spiritually speaking... not Judaism.

And so, Rome had to do something... and they did. And the circus that was the council of nicea plays its part.

Rome didn't want to forego worship of their pagan deities, so they reworked the pagan myths into Christianity - this is known fact.

You can't argue that Judaism was a spiritual threat to Rome, it never was.

Let's not forget, the Jews of jerusalem were hecka jealous about letting heathen into their faith, they just didn't allow it - so this spiritual threat you speak of is not accurate.

Romans were not semites, and so couldn't be following Judaic religion, Mosaic law. Heck, they couldn't even consider it - spiritually, practically or religiously.

They didn't even want to accept christianity as the state religion, but did so because it made "empirical sense".

Actually the Romans being upset by Christianity taking people away from worshipping the gods also lumped Jew in with the Christians figuring the background was similar.

 

[Brickjectivity]

If you are speaking of the inquisition, I believe it was inherently evil and definitely not Christian in anything other than people claiming to be Christian.

I was referring to the general characteristic of the NT that makes it find fault with Jews frequently, making 'The Jews' 'The Pharisees' and 'Teachers of Law' constantly play the evil foil to the character of Jesus and sometimes Peter, Paul, Christian Ecclesias, etc. The Inquisition is a relatively recent development, and I was talking about ancient Rome and its tendencies thinking that would best explain the anti-Jew anti-Pharisee kind of comments made in the NT that CMike listed.

We are already not reliant upon Paul since we rely on Jesus but since Paul spoke the words jesus gave him, I don't see any problem with him either.

Paul is given a very high place among Christians these days. His letters are in the Bible right along with the four gospels, and he is prominent in Acts. Many people base Christianity solely upon the Bible, including Paul's letters. Additionally there is a severe lack of teaching of the Torah laws among Christians, which leaves Christians grasping for some way to interpret Jesus culture. They often slot Paul's letters in as a replacement for a proper study of the Torah law and its culture. Christians today do rely upon Paul for many things.

I believe in puritanism. What good is a defiled religion?

I'm not sure what puritanism means to you. A lot of people do receive benefit from different branches of the same religion. In a NT context James says that pure religion is to 'Take care of orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unspotted by the world.' It is a somewhat vague statement, but he doesn't mention puritanism.