The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[Flankerl]

They must have had a serious problem, what with millions of Hebrews poking each other's eyes out. Whewee! That's a lot of eyeballs! "We totally needed a law about eyeballs, because we like to poke each other in the eye!" "Hey, you just cut off my toe! Now I get to cut your toe off! Hold still!" Man, what a bunch of country hicks, huh? Naturally they wouldn't have had a set of laws that actually made any sense, just as you say.

The sad thing is, this is what christians actually believe.

 

[metis]

*post moderated*

What you and some others fail to understand is that the Jewish form of writing often uses parallel comparisons, and parables are just one form. IOW, with the above, the author is highly unlikely saying Jesus is God, but instead saying Jesus is of God.

If you insist that Jesus is God based on your interpretations, then the "N.T." would have to be considered bogus because there's far more scriptures that clearly indicate that Jesus refers to God as being separate from him.

It's always a rule-of-thumb amongst theologians that when it comes to interpretation, one needs to look at context, which involves taking in the bigger picture of looking at many verses dealing with the same general subject. If one doesn't do that, they they are apt to fall into all sorts of falsehoods.

 

[CMike]

You are completely wrong. No one should divorce (take away the mother of his children) when isn't by cause of prostitution. So Jesus says to you:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)

Since G-D gave specific laws concerning divorce, what he said trumps what jesus said.

 

[CMike]

If you don't like this Word of Jesus Christ, I remember other Word to you:

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?" (John 14:6-11)

You see, Jesus Christ is God. And the commandments of Jesus Christ (the commandments of the Gospel) are the true commandments of God.

That's rather conceded. Only the one true G-D is the "truth, and the life".

 

[Brickjectivity]

The sad thing is, this is what christians actually believe.

It depresses me, not that I'm particularly sensitive but these are my family! Yes, it is widely believed that the ancient Jews were fairly crude and brutish and that Jesus came to change that. Because of that people miss out. There are NT passages that suggest studying the Law, but it is largely discredited so that not many are interested. Well that wouldn't be so terrible except that the NT is being read without it, and worse due to cultural differences (over 2000 years ) NT references to the Tanach are mistaken for quotations of it. They are literally quotes but are meant to be more like bibliography in a time before there were chapters and verse numbers. Plus there are always people willing to preach one day a week, so that they don't have to work for the other six days. So yes, it is a sad thing, and this whole 'Eye for an eye' misunderstanding is just one typical expression of the misunderstandings.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No one should divorce (take away the mother of his children) when isn't by cause of prostitution. So Jesus says to you

No, Jesus uses the word unfaithfulness not prostitution, and unfaithfulness in marriage is a completely different matter than what you have assumed. He uses 'Unfaithfulness' knowing that in the Law faithfulness covers the basic responsibilities of the marriage partners: food, clothes, sex, children, inheritance rights, etc. All these are spelled out in the Law and in the marriage contracts of the individuals. Big example: if the man won't feed his kids he is being unfaithful. Really he's worse than unfaithful isn't he? Jesus upholds all of these things by saying divorce is only acceptable if there is marital unfaithfulness, just not for any old reason. For example if your wife burns the toast, Jesus would say it is not grounds for divorce.

Bigger example: you cannot just ignore your wife, because it is unfaithfulness. If you put your wife at one end of the house and ignore her for long periods of time, then you are being unfaithful. Same goes for harming her. If you're going to harm your wife, this is unfaithfulness; and it is more moral to divorce her than to keep hurting her. If you're a drunk or a crack head so that you can't provide for your wife and kids, then you are obligated to divorce. Its just basic decency that Jesus is talking about.

 

[Tumah]

It depresses me, not that I'm particularly sensitive but these are my family! Yes, it is widely believed that the ancient Jews were fairly crude and brutish and that Jesus came to change that. Because of that people miss out. There are NT passages that suggest studying the Law, but it is largely discredited so that not many are interested. Well that wouldn't be so terrible except that the NT is being read without it, and worse due to cultural differences (over 2000 years ) NT references to the Tanach are mistaken for quotations of it. They are literally quotes but are meant to be more like bibliography in a time before there were chapters and verse numbers. Plus there are always people willing to preach one day a week, so that they don't have to work for the other six days. So yes, it is a sad thing, and this whole 'Eye for an eye' misunderstanding is just one typical expression of the misunderstandings.

Really? Is that a common thing?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Really? Is that a common thing?

Lets see if I can provide evidences...just the negative ones so its not the Whole Story but here some things you can verify:

1. Kenneth Copeland is a big TV evangelist who has a lot of churches large and small that pay in to get his magazines and attend training seminars with him etc. Kenneth & Gloria Copeland's site How to Study the Bible | Kenneth Copeland Ministries talking about "How to study the Bible" says "When starting out, spend the majority of your time in the New Testament (primarily in the letters the Apostle Paul wrote to the early churches)." Now then the NT is only about 1/10th as thick as the Tanach, so the emphasis upon reading mostly the NT practically guarantees misunderstanding as almost every word of the NT references the Tanach. This instruction would cover not just Copeland's associated churches but generally would be what the new member will hear in any evangelical Christian congregation. This method of study is widespread, so misunderstandings are guaranteed.

2. Miles Munroe of Bahama Ministries International is another well known evangelical Christian teacher who says "Those to whom He came first, the Jews, misunderstood Jesus and saw Him as a rebel, a misfit, and a fanatic. In their minds He was, at best, a misguided rabbinical teacher spreading heresies that contaminated the teachings and laws of Moses and Judaism. In truth, they had reduced the message of Moses to a sophisticated religion where strict observance of the laws became more important than the original purpose for those laws." This I took from Kingdom principles by myles munroe This exemplifies a kind of hollow view of the Jews, as if they had a shrinky-dink version of Torah that we can all ignore.

3. The Voice Magazine demonstrates my point by saying "...So what do you do when you are in a Muslim nation? The answer is not to ‘do as the Muslims.’ Sure, there was a temptation to fall back on the ‘eye for an eye concept,’ and dish out the rudeness in return.Responding to Christian Persecution in a Hostile Nation Here the Voice Magazine editors just let it go. Why object to something that is so commonly accepted among Evangelical Christians? Or perhaps they didn't even notice.

4. Rhema Ministries is also well known and representative of evangelical Christians. It was founded by Kenneth Hagin who says on his site "It was difficult for the Jews to understand what Jesus was saying when He talked about a Father of love. They had only known God as a God of law and justice—and that is one side of God." ( Kenneth Hagin Ministries ) So this is another example of how dull and stupid the ancient Jews are thought to be. They just couldn't grasp the concept of love combined with justice and could only accept justice. Its a very typical point of view among evangelicals which may not seem a big deal on the surface, but its actually not healthy.

5. An article by Ron Cantor in Charisma Magazine says this about Jews: "Messianic Jews enjoy the presence of God, whereas Orthodox Jews have a religion of things they must do. Many of those things are beautiful and meaningful; many, however, are tedious and rote. But all they accomplish, and this is true of religion in general, from Islam to Catholicism, is to make the observer of these traditions and codes of behavior feel good about him or herself." Note here that Torah study is again discouraged, and it is diminished into something that just makes Jews feel good about themselves. While this isn't something people talk about constantly, the article itself should show you that it is a widespread belief that 1. Jews just don't understand their own Torah 2. Its not really worth reading even though you're encouraged to skim it at least once.

Underscoring it all is a kind of paper-doll person that is called a Jew who is too thick to grasp the delicate balance of love and justice.

 

[CMike]

It depresses me, not that I'm particularly sensitive but these are my family! Yes, it is widely believed that the ancient Jews were fairly crude and brutish and that Jesus came to change that. Because of that people miss out. There are NT passages that suggest studying the Law, but it is largely discredited so that not many are interested. Well that wouldn't be so terrible except that the NT is being read without it, and worse due to cultural differences (over 2000 years ) NT references to the Tanach are mistaken for quotations of it. They are literally quotes but are meant to be more like bibliography in a time before there were chapters and verse numbers. Plus there are always people willing to preach one day a week, so that they don't have to work for the other six days. So yes, it is a sad thing, and this whole 'Eye for an eye' misunderstanding is just one typical expression of the misunderstandings.

I see it as the opposite.

I think there are numerous crude and brutish passages and scriptures in the Christian bible.

 

[CMike]

Lets see if I can provide evidences...just the negative ones so its not the Whole Story but here some things you can verify:

1. Kenneth Copeland is a big TV evangelist who has a lot of churches large and small that pay in to get his magazines and attend training seminars with him etc. Kenneth & Gloria Copeland's site How to Study the Bible | Kenneth Copeland Ministries talking about "How to study the Bible" says "When starting out, spend the majority of your time in the New Testament (primarily in the letters the Apostle Paul wrote to the early churches)." Now then the NT is only about 1/10th as thick as the Tanach, so the emphasis upon reading mostly the NT practically guarantees misunderstanding as almost every word of the NT references the Tanach. This instruction would cover not just Copeland's associated churches but generally would be what the new member will hear in any evangelical Christian congregation. This method of study is widespread, so misunderstandings are guaranteed.

2. Miles Munroe of Bahama Ministries International is another well known evangelical Christian teacher who says "Those to whom He came first, the Jews, misunderstood Jesus and saw Him as a rebel, a misfit, and a fanatic. In their minds He was, at best, a misguided rabbinical teacher spreading heresies that contaminated the teachings and laws of Moses and Judaism. In truth, they had reduced the message of Moses to a sophisticated religion where strict observance of the laws became more important than the original purpose for those laws." This I took from Kingdom principles by myles munroe This exemplifies a kind of hollow view of the Jews, as if they had a shrinky-dink version of Torah that we can all ignore.

3. The Voice Magazine demonstrates my point by saying "...So what do you do when you are in a Muslim nation? The answer is not to ‘do as the Muslims.’ Sure, there was a temptation to fall back on the ‘eye for an eye concept,’ and dish out the rudeness in return.Responding to Christian Persecution in a Hostile Nation Here the Voice Magazine editors just let it go. Why object to something that is so commonly accepted among Evangelical Christians? Or perhaps they didn't even notice.

4. Rhema Ministries is also well known and representative of evangelical Christians. It was founded by Kenneth Hagin who says on his site "It was difficult for the Jews to understand what Jesus was saying when He talked about a Father of love. They had only known God as a God of law and justice—and that is one side of God." ( Kenneth Hagin Ministries ) So this is another example of how dull and stupid the ancient Jews are thought to be. They just couldn't grasp the concept of love combined with justice and could only accept justice. Its a very typical point of view among evangelicals which may not seem a big deal on the surface, but its actually not healthy.

5. An article by Ron Cantor in Charisma Magazine says this about Jews: "Messianic Jews enjoy the presence of God, whereas Orthodox Jews have a religion of things they must do. Many of those things are beautiful and meaningful; many, however, are tedious and rote. But all they accomplish, and this is true of religion in general, from Islam to Catholicism, is to make the observer of these traditions and codes of behavior feel good about him or herself." Note here that Torah study is again discouraged, and it is diminished into something that just makes Jews feel good about themselves. While this isn't something people talk about constantly, the article itself should show you that it is a widespread belief that 1. Jews just don't understand their own Torah 2. Its not really worth reading even though you're encouraged to skim it at least once.

Underscoring it all is a kind of paper-doll person that is called a Jew who is too thick to grasp the delicate balance of love and justice.

Of course. They are Christian or muslim sources.

So you mean widely believed among christians, correct.

 

[Tumah]

Lets see if I can provide evidences...just the negative ones so its not the Whole Story but here some things you can verify:...


Underscoring it all is a kind of paper-doll person that is called a Jew who is too thick to grasp the delicate balance of love and justice.

This just reinforces to me that the average Christian really doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows about Judaism. Not by a long shot.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think there are numerous crude and brutish passages and scriptures in the Christian bible.

That is not an equivalent objection. If you see passages in someone's literature as crude and brutish it doesn't affect you directly. Viewing the Torah as brutish and crude -- this affects Christians both badly and directly.

Of course. They are Christian or muslim sources.
So you mean widely believed among christians, correct.

Hmm? Oh, those sources are Christian of the evangelical variety that I produced to show the belief is widespread.

 

[Porque77]

No, Jesus uses the word unfaithfulness not prostitution, and unfaithfulness in marriage is a completely different matter than what you have assumed.

Hello Brickjectivity. The Greek word some bibles translated "unfaithfulness", in the Greek scriptures is "porneiaV", and this word means "prostitution" and, first, prostitution with false religions.

There are many false religions that are in the world, and many follow these religions. And very few are who faithfully follow the Gospel.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Hello Brickjectivity. The Greek word some bibles translated "unfaithfulness", in the Greek scriptures is "porneiaV", and this word means "prostitution" and, first, prostitution with false religions.

Ok it doesn't matter what you read in a dictionary but what the Law defined as faithfulness. In the Greek copy of the law which went along with the Greek NT, a married man was still unfaithful if he failed to fulfil all of his responsibilities to his wife. It doesn't matter if you read the Greek Septuagint, the Hebrew Masoretic or the modern English. All of them indicate the multiple responsibilities of the spouse which if neglected amount to 'Unfaithfulness' whether or not there has been a sexual affair. In fact if a husband refuses his wife regular sex, this counts as unfaithfulness. If he doesn't provide food or can't provide food, its still unfaithfulness. If his wife is forced to live in distressing situations due to his actions or inactions it is unfaithfulness. The point Jesus drives home is that marriage is not a plaything. Its not ok to divorce for just any old reason. Only unfaithfulness should be the reason for divorce.

 

[Muffled]

Christian Chrash Course on Roman History.

- 37 before common era: Judea becomes a client Kingdom of the Roman Republic
- as its custom client Kingdoms have more authority then their master, true story!
- ~ 30 common era: because the Jews are obviously the rulers of the Roman Republic they actually have power over Roman soldiers and even the Prefect
- which is why the Jews had the power to order the Roman Prefect around



True story.






"Let me tell you about your Religion"

I believe that isn't the way it is told in the Bilbe and my history may be shaky but I am pretty sure Romans always ruled their captured territories albeit they saw fit to install puppet kings in Israel.

I believe one thing that can't be told is that we do know God and that we don't believe Jesus is a blasphemer for calling Himself God.

 

[Muffled]

First of all, "deicide" would involve killing God, so exactly how does that work since God therefore must be dead according to this approach? Secondly, Jesus on numerous occasions points out differences between he and God, further evidence from the gospels themselves that Jesus could not possibly be God.

I have a 1,000 page thread on this. (perhaps a slight exxageration).

I believe God did not die, only the body died so the Spirit of God returned to being the Father until the resurrection.

I believe it is Understandable because Jesus has a body and the Father does not.

I don't believe there is any.

 

[Muffled]

That is not the same as saying that he's God.

I agree. It may be that God is the only one who is the truth but I don't remember Him saying so except I think somewhere it says that God does not lie. Also it may be that eternal life which Jesus promises can only be achieved by God but perhaps someone knows of another way of achieving it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Muffled, I just noticed that Flanker's statement about a crash course in history was intended ironically to denote the opposite of what she was saying. Your reply seems to indicate you don't realize that, but she wasn't saying things directly but sarcastically. :flower: Maybe I am losing track with all of these multiple conversations going on?

 

[Porque77]

Ok it doesn't matter what you read in a dictionary but what the Law defined as faithfulness

What the Greek text is very important, because the scriptures are poorly translated some verses. And in this case, what the Greek text says is that no one should divorce "except in cases of prostitution."

And prostitution is spiritually unfaithfulness to God or idolatry. See what scripture says:

" And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. Thou didst also take thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest for thee images of men, and didst play the harlot with them" (Ezequiel 16:16-17)

But if you prefer to use the word "fornication", script also tells you the foricación is idolatry. Watch it:

"For this ye are well informed of, knowing that no fornicator, or unclean person, or person of unbridled lust, who is an idolater, has inheritance in the kingdom of the Christ and God". (Ephesians 5:5)

No one should divorce "except for the cause of prostitution" (idolatry or infidelity to God or people)

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by CMike
I think there are numerous crude and brutish passages and scriptures in the Christian bible

.

That is not an equivalent objection. If you see passages in someone's literature as crude and brutish it doesn't affect you directly. Viewing the Torah as brutish and crude -- this affects Christians both badly and directly.

Hmm? Oh, those sources are Christian of the evangelical variety that I produced to show the belief is widespread.

Actually it does affect me.

IMO the great hatred of jews in the christian bible has contibuted to christians mass murdering and torturing jews.