The NAACP Owes Donald Trump an Apology

[Subduction Zone]

Interesting that in 2017 only about %50 of identified hate crime perpetrators were white while a little over %20 were identified as black. If we look at the racial makeup of the U.S. in 2017 it will show that blacks disproportionately commit more hate crimes than whites, it also shows that whites are disproportionately less likely to commit hate crimes than other races.

This claim is somewhat inaccurate. Of identified assailants 50% were white and roughly 20% were black. But another 20% were unidentified. If the split was the same then roughly 60% would have been white and 24% would have been black, and yes black people do have a higher per captia rate of hate crimes.

 

[Audie]

Interesting that in 2017 only about %50 of identified hate crime perpetrators were white while a little over %20 were identified as black. If we look at the racial makeup of the U.S. in 2017 it will show that blacks disproportionately commit more hate crimes than whites, it also shows that whites are disproportionately less likely to commit hate crimes than other races.

yeah, "what is a hate crime", how serous, what gets counted,
etc etc, turns into dueling websites.

Those "black israelis" from the "Maga kids" thing, the stuff
they were saying would, elsewhere / elsepersons saying,
be given a lot of "hate speech" attention.

Not to play dueling hypocrisy...anyway I am out, this is
not for me.

 

[Stanyon]

This claim is somewhat inaccurate. Of identified assailants 50% were white and roughly 20% were black. But another 20% were unidentified. If the split was the same then roughly 60% would have been white and 24% would have been black, and yes black people do have a higher per captia rate of hate crimes.

Are you suggesting that only whites and blacks commit hate crimes in the U.S.?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you suggesting that only whites and blacks commit hate crimes in the U.S.?

What Add up the numbers 60 and 24. Is it 100?

Here is the math for the extrapolation. Whites were identified as doing roughly 50% of hate crimes, Blacks 20%, 20% were unidentified, and another 10% were mixed race and unknown. Using the percentages of the various groups and trying a best estimate of the "unknowns". We get 50%(the percentage of known white assailants)*20% unknown = 10% white by estimate. Add that to the known white and we get 60%. For blacks we take 20%(the known black assailants)*20% unknown and we get 4% estimated blacks. Add that to the 20% and we get 24%.

 

[Stanyon]

What Add up the numbers 60 and 24. Is it 100?

Here is the math for the extrapolation. Whites were identified as doing roughly 50% of hate crimes, Blacks 20%, 20% were unidentified, and another 10% were mixed race and unknown. Using the percentages of the various groups and trying a best estimate of the "unknowns". We get 50%(the percentage of known white assailants)*20% unknown = 10% white by estimate. Add that to the known white and we get 60%. For blacks we take 20%(the known black assailants)*20% unknown and we get 4% estimated blacks. Add that to the 20% and we get 24%.

Since "make America Great Again" is supposedly code for "Make America White Again" and Trump is supposedly emboldening whites when it comes to hate crimes it might be interesting to look at the data over the last twenty years of identified races committing hate crimes. It seems a popular argument that hate crimes have increased because of Trump but When it boils down to it the numbers may not be that convincing that there is some epidemic of whites committing hate crimes, maybe a small increase of 10 or so? Hardly an epidemic.
I don't have the time at the moment but it may be worth looking into to debunk some popular accepted myths about hate crime.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Wait.....the attack on Smollett was your imagined event.
And it's significance is to illustrate the left's pervasive simmering
hatred, bigotry, & dishonest attempts to demonize the other side.
Heterosexual white men are the perfect target for their fraudulent
attacks.

Is this post serious? It's hard to tell with you anymore.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is this post serious? It's hard to tell with you anymore.

A little over the top, yes....but take this one seriously.
Notice how phoney claims by black accusers always involve white men.
This is no coincidence when seeking to falsely paint Trump supporters
as violent racists. And when the left is too quick to believe, & pounce
upon this as evidence supporting pre-existing hatred for Trump & his
supporters, it shows inherent sexism & racism, lurking in the left. This
applies to both fraud perpetrators, & the fraud believers, who continue
to excuse the fraud after discovery.

Of course, this is not to paint all lefties as fraudulent bigots.
But just as the right has some genuine malefactors, so does the left.
So we'd all benefit from treating our political foes as decent people,
with the nasty elements not sullying the whole.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the news....
L.A. City Attorney: Smollett Convicted in 2007 of Giving False Info to Police.

 

[sooda]

if it turns out that Jussie Smollett did arrange the attack on himself

Agree or disagree?

This is what NAACP president and CEO Derrick Johnson said in a statement about the attack:

"The recent racist and homophobic attack on acclaimed actor and activist Jussie Smollett is troubling. The rise in hate crimes is directly linked to President Donald J. Trump’s racist and xenophobic rhetoric. It is dangerous for any society to allow a tone of divisiveness and hatred to dominate the political discourse. As this rhetoric continues to bleed into our everyday lives, dangerous behavior will continue to place many law-abiding individuals at risk. We pray for a full physical and mental recovery Jussie Smollett and many unnamed victims of this forum of hate based terrorism."

As a bonus create a funny picture about the incident just in case Jussie is found guilty, samples below:

Silliest thing I ever heard. I'm white and I'm not apologizing for Trump.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A little over the top, yes....but take this one seriously.
Notice how phoney claims by black accusers always involve white men.
This is no coincidence when seeking to falsely paint Trump supporters
as violent racists. And when the left is too quick to believe, & pounce
upon this as evidence supporting pre-existing hatred for Trump & his
supporters, it shows inherent sexism & racism, lurking in the left. This
applies to both fraud perpetrators, & the fraud believers, who continue
to excuse the fraud after discovery.

You do realize the Trump also registered his disgust with the attack on Twitter, right? This isn't an exclusively left-wing issue, and I think anyone has the right to react to alleged attacks with whatever outrage they feel appropriate. You can't really blame people if they're being deliberately misled - instances of "phoney claims" are extremely rare compared to genuine ones, and while I think a healthy degree of scepticism should be applied to all claims of this sort, your reaction here seems to massively overblow the issue in order to paint the particular group who are most responsible for these kinds of attacks as the "victims" of some sort of massive covert oppression. To me, this just seems wrong-headed. Nobody passed the "Jussie Smollett law" to ensure the certainty of prosecuting white people for any alleged hate crime. This is literally just people reacting with disgust to a claimed hate crime - some of whom indicated that this crime may be linked to a demonstrable rise in hate crime during Trump's presidency, finding out the claim may have been faked, and subsequently reacting with disgust at the allegation. To act like this is indication of "lurking sexism and racism" is patently absurd. And, as of right now, the investigation into this case is ongoing, so to assert that it is outright fraud is still premature. I'm willing to sit and wait until more information comes to light before passing judgement on either side.

Of course, this is not to paint all lefties as fraudulent bigots.
But just as the right has some genuine malefactors, so does the left.
So we'd all benefit from treating our political foes as decent people,
with the nasty elements not sullying the whole.

If that's your genuine belief, then perhaps accusing the left of "inherent sexism and racism" just because they reacted against an allegation of a homophobic and racist hate crime isn't the best way to handle the issue.

 

[Revoltingest]

You do realize the Trump also registered his disgust with the attack on Twitter, right?

I didn't know that.
But consider the differences here in response to the claimed attack....
- Trump was disgusted by it.
- The left used it to demonize Trump.

This isn't an exclusively left-wing issue, and I think anyone has the right to react to alleged attacks with whatever outrage they feel appropriate. You can't really blame people if they're being deliberately misled - instances of "phoney claims" are extremely rare compared to genuine ones, and while I think a healthy degree of scepticism should be applied to all claims of this sort, your reaction here seems to massively overblow the issue in order to paint the particular group who are most responsible for these kinds of attacks as the "victims" of some sort of massive covert oppression.

I blame people for leaping to certainty for the purpose of propaganda.

To me, this just seems wrong-headed. Nobody passed the "Jussie Smollett law" to ensure the certainty of prosecuting white people for any alleged hate crime. This is literally just people reacting with disgust to a claimed hate crime - some of whom indicated that this crime may be linked to a demonstrable rise in hate crime during Trump's presidency, finding out the claim may have been faked, and subsequently reacting with disgust at the allegation. To act like this is indication of "lurking sexism and racism" is patently absurd. And, as of right now, the investigation into this case is ongoing, so to assert that it is outright fraud is still premature. I'm willing to sit and wait until more information comes to light before passing judgement on either side.

It is telling that the accuser chose white males for the purpose of demonizing Trump.

If that's your genuine belief, then perhaps accusing the left of "inherent sexism and racism" just because they reacted against an allegation of a homophobic and racist hate crime isn't the best way to handle the issue.

In the news....
L.A. City Attorney: Smollett Convicted in 2007 of Giving False Info to Police.

Humans are imperfect, even those on the left.
This is an example of racism & sexism coming from their side.
The irony is that they're willing to falsely use accusations of racism & homophobia.
Tis meta-bigotry.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I didn't know that.
But consider the differences here in response to the claimed attack....
- Trump was disgusted by it.
- The left used it to demonize Trump.

Oversimplifying an issue is not constructive debate. "The left" reacted in a variety of ways, with many of them alleging that this was one of a series of attacks in the wake of a rise in hate crime connected to Trump, which isn't surprising considering the initial allegations specifically mentioned the attackers acting in ways that indicated their support for Trump and his rhetoric. Whether you accept it or not, Trump's neo-nationalist rhetoric has empowered racist views - his strong following in the white nationalist movement is proof enough of that - and as much as the man may want to distance himself from that fact, it is still worth acknowledging that nationalist rhetoric can and does lead to an increase in racially-motivated violence.

I blame people for leaping to certainty for the purpose of propaganda.

You mean like how you are leaping to certainty about it being fraud?

People reacted because they were disgusted by the attack, and they attributed it to Trump and his base because that's the way the narrative lead them (and it also helps that Trump engages in nationalistic rhetoric, has a known following amongst white supremacists and there has been a rise in hate crime since his initial candidacy). It's not propaganda to be outraged by an event and ascribe it to a probable cause.

It is telling that the accuser chose white males for the purpose of demonizing Trump.

It's not telling of anything, because you still don't know that the allegation is fraudulent. Furthermore, even if it is, it does not indicate that white people are suddenly an oppressed minority and this is all indicative of a vast, anti-white racist conspiracy. Such a thing is absurd, and actually WOULD be propagandist nonsense.

In the news....
L.A. City Attorney: Smollett Convicted in 2007 of Giving False Info to Police.

Doesn't mean this case isn't genuine. Learn to logic.

Humans are imperfect, even those on the left.
This is an example of racism & sexism coming from their side.

No, it isn't. Don't be silly.

The irony is that they're willing to falsely use accusations of racism & homophobia.

Again, this is a silly statement. The vast majority of the voices on the left that I'm aware of have been disgusted by the possibility of this attack being false and want to see Smollett convicted for it if it is found to be so. Trying to spin this as if "the left" somehow knew these allegations were false to begin with and continued to use it for political reasons anyway as you've tried to imply here is, again, silly.

Tis meta-bigotry.

No, it's not. Learn to perspective.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oversimplifying an issue is not constructive debate.

Is this an apology?

"The left" reacted in a variety of ways, with many of them alleging that this was one of a series of attacks in the wake of a rise in hate crime connected to Trump, which isn't surprising considering the initial allegations specifically mentioned the attackers acting in ways that indicated their support for Trump and his rhetoric. Whether you accept it or not, Trump's neo-nationalist rhetoric has empowered racist views - his strong following in the white nationalist movement is proof enough of that - and as much as the man may want to distance himself from that fact, it is still worth acknowledging that nationalist rhetoric can and does lead to an increase in racially-motivated violence.

I don't excuse Trump's prejudices & abusive language.
But neither do I accept your using this to explain (excuse?)
false flag operations from the left, which also employ bigotry.
We're finding that much "racially-motivated violence" is coming
from Trump's opposition, ie, the left. And they use their own
actions as evidence to demonize Trump.

You mean like how you are leaping to certainty about it being fraud?

I am less than certain, but confident that he committed a fraud.
Consider that he was convicted of lying to cops in 2006, & that
his story is falling apart, with testimony from co-conspirators.
The preponderance of evidence is against him.

People reacted because they were disgusted by the attack, and they attributed it to Trump and his base because that's the way the narrative lead them (and it also helps that Trump engages in nationalistic rhetoric, has a known following amongst white supremacists and there has been a rise in hate crime since his initial candidacy). It's not propaganda to be outraged by an event and ascribe it to a probable cause.

So whether the attack was cromulent or fraudulent, it matters
not because either way it justifies how the left feels, eh?

It's not telling of anything, because you still don't know that the allegation is fraudulent. Furthermore, even if it is, it does not indicate that white people are suddenly an oppressed minority and this is all indicative of a vast, anti-white racist conspiracy. Such a thing is absurd, and actually WOULD be propagandist nonsense.

This isn't the first propagandistic false claim made against Trump supporters.
But what's more telling than the actions of the perp is the reaction of the left.
Your own reaction is to make it about Trump being a racist. Thus the false
flag is effective on its intended audience whether legitimate or not.

Doesn't mean this case isn't genuine. Learn to logic.

Before lecturing others on logic, try applying it yourself.

No, it isn't. Don't be silly.

Apologists never admit to sins of their side.
But this is worse than silly....it's dangerous.

Again, this is a silly statement. The vast majority of the voices on the left
that I'm aware of have been disgusted by the possibility of this attack being
false and want to see Smollett convicted for it if it is found to be so.
Trying to spin this as if "the left" somehow knew these allegations were
false to begin with and continued to use it for political reasons anyway
as you've tried to imply here is, again, silly.

I've seen them decry false claims too. And then they immediately launch
into the same deflection that you've given, ie, that racially motivated violence
is Trump's fault. The left uses the phoney claims to the same effect as though
they were real.

No, it's not. Learn to perspective.

You don't have "The Truth".
So I recommend a little effort to try understanding the perspective of others.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't excuse Trump's prejudices & abusive language.
But neither do I accept your using this to explain (excuse?)
false flag operations from the left, which also employ bigotry.

I never used it to explain or excuse anything, and for you to imply that this is a false flag operation by "the left" is once again part of whole problem and a huge hypocrisy on your part. You're outraged by the notion that people may use a single event to spread negative rhetoric about a broader political movement, but at the same time you are actively engaged in now ascribing a single event to spread negative rhetoric about a broader political movement.

Repeat after me: "If this was an instance of fraud, it is orchestrated by Smollett and Smollett alone."

We're finding that much "racially-motivated violence" is coming
from Trump's opposition, ie, the left. And they use their own
actions as evidence to demonize Trump.

More playing the victim. Please provide actual instances of racially motivated violence coming from Trump's opposition. Also, Trump has right-wing opposition too, so to categorize Trump's opposition as simply "the left" is a falsehood.

I am less than certain, but confident that he committed a fraud.

Then stop acting certain and making definite statements. Wait for the conclusion of the investigation like a reasonable person.

Consider that he was convicted of lying to cops in 2006, & that
his story is falling apart, with testimony from co-conspirators.

Once again, you have no real hard details or evidence to go on. Await further information.

The preponderance of evidence is against him.

You are not involved in the investigation. Await further information.

So whether the attack was cromulent or fraudulent, it matters
not because either way it justifies how the left feels, eh?

Never said that. I personally think that if the attack is fraudulent Smollett should be convicted, and it's an utter disgrace, but I don't feel it's indicative of any lack of justification in feeling that Trump's rhetoric emboldens racism and leads to an increase in hate crime because we have lots of other reasons to believe that's actually true. It certainly isn't indication of a vast, anti-white, anti-straight leftwing conspiracy. Try to remember that it's the current climate of racial rhetoric and extremely common racist attacks that added credibility to this specific allegation, not the other way around.

This isn't the first propagandistic false claim made against Trump supporters.

Irrelevant. They're statistically insignificant compared to the number of genuine cases, and certainly not enough to imply a vast conspiracy.

But what's more telling than the actions of the perp is the reaction of the left.

Again, making sweeping pronouncements about "the left". Learn some perspective. "The left" were not the only ones potentially taken in.

Your own reaction is to make it about Trump being a racist.

My own reaction is to temper your rhetoric by explaining the climate that lead to the allegations in the first place and getting you to understand that one instance of a potentially false attack does nothing to diminish or sour the history of racism influenced and inspired by Trump's rhetoric. In this case, I'd rather we continued investigating and held Smollett to account if it is found to be false while not using it to make sweeping pronouncements either way - it's an example of an aberration. In order to deal with the real problems (i.e: actual racism and homophobia, not the exceptionally rare cases of people faking them), it's best to view this only as a case study in how social media can influence popular perceptions of both.

Thus the false
flag is effective on its intended audience whether legitimate or not.

Sure, but how can you blame "the left" for believing something they are given plenty of reason - at first - to believe, and is consistent with the reality of the world around them? Again - "the left" weren't the only ones who accepted Smollett's allegation at face value, and while they may have jumped to ascribe blame, its was Smollett's words again that deliberately lead them to do that. You're essentially getting angry at people for believing something that it isn't unreasonable to believe.

Before lecturing others on logic, try applying it yourself.

I do, which is why I've reserved any kind of judgement since the first allegations came out.

Apologists never admit to sins of their side.
But this is worse than silly....it's dangerous.

Projection.

I've seen them decry false claims too. And then they immediately launch
into the same deflection that you've given, ie, that racially motivated violence
is Trump's fault.

You already said you don't excuse Trump's prejudice and abusive language... And now you're excusing it?

The left uses the phoney claims to the same effect as though
they were real.

Conspiratorial nonsense.

You don't have "The Truth".

I've never claimed to. You've claimed you have it.

So I recommend a little effort to try understanding the perspective of others.

Again, projecting.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never used it to explain or excuse anything, and for you to imply that this is a false flag operation by "the left" is once again part of whole problem and a huge hypocrisy on your part.

The perp is a leftie who intended to falsely demonize others.
The left bought it on blind faith, & used it as propaganda.
And yet, you dismiss all this by accusing me of hypocrisy?
This is irrational.

You're outraged by the notion that people may use a single event to spread negative rhetoric about a broader political movement, but at the same time you are actively engaged in now ascribing a single event to spread negative rhetoric about a broader political movement.

I'm not outraged at all.
I find it fascinating.
And I see your trick here.
Your accusation is typical of one backed into a corner...accuse the
other of being emotional, ie, make it personal, rather than the issue.
This tactic pervades your posts. It should be avoided.

Since the rest of your post is repetition, I've nothing to add.

 

[Shad]

You do realize the Trump also registered his disgust with the attack on Twitter, right? This isn't an exclusively left-wing issue, and I think anyone has the right to react to alleged attacks with whatever outrage they feel appropriate.

Alternatively Trump is twitting as it is expected of him and due to his blunder over his delay in the Charlottesville attack.

 

[Stanyon]

Some funny pictures:

WHITE FACE IS RACIST!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The perp is a leftie who intended to falsely demonize others.

The investigation is still ongoing. You, as of yet, have insufficient evidence to claim this with any certainty.

The left bought it on blind faith, & used it as propaganda.

People tend to believe victims of crimes because they have no good reason to believe they're lying at face value. And it wasn't just "the left" who believed him.

And yet, you dismiss all this by accusing me of hypocrisy?

Because you're a hypocrite. You ignore the widespread racism in America and instead blanketly accuse "the left" of being "racist and sexist" based on the fact that they (momentarily) believed an alleged victim of a racist and homophobic attack in a country where racist and homophobic attacks are on the rise. You use apologist rhetoric to ignore the actual issue while massively overblowing a single instance into producing propaganda against a political group you disagree with. You are a hypocrite.

This is irrational.

You're not qualified to judge what's rational.

I'm not outraged at all.
I find it fascinating.

You accused "the left" of being racists and sexists just because they temporarily believed Smollett's claims. You're clearly outraged beyond the capacity for rational perspective.

And I see your trick here.
Your accusation is typical of one backed into a corner...accuse the
other of being emotional, ie, make it personal, rather than the issue.

You're the one jumping to conclusions. It's not a trick to say "hey, maybe this isn't indication that every single person on the left is racist and sexist and is just a horrible, confusing incident that requires further investigation".

This tactic pervades your posts. It should be avoided.

Meanwhile, painting "straight, white people" as the real victims is not harmful at all, right?

Since the rest of your post is repetition, I've nothing to add.

You've never had anything to add.

 

[Revoltingest]

The investigation is still ongoing. You, as of yet, have insufficient evidence to claim this with any certainty.

That's exactly what I told you in an earlier post.

Because you're a hypocrite......

OK, that's enuf.
Re-read your post.
See how it's sanctimonious & rude.
That's neither enjoyable nor interesting to me.
And you don't want to be seen that way.
Regain your equanimity.
Seek some common ground, not just pure objection
Be civil.
Then we can talk.

This is good advice.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the news....
Jussie Smollett in Custody on Disorderly Conduct Charge: CPD
Police said in a press conference hours later that Smollett sent a "false letter that relied on racial, homophobic and political language" to himself and staged a hate crime attack in Chicago because he was "dissatisfied with his salary."

"This announcement today recognizes that 'Empire' actor Jussie Smolett took advantage of the pain and anger of racism to promote his career. I'm left hanging my head and asking why," Chicago Police Supt. Eddie Johnson said.