The Missing Passover

[S-word]

Well, the Church had to be established, and, it seems to me, anything was open season. Regarding satanic forces, these are for those who believe in Satan. Jews don't believe in Satan. And for turning people away from the God of Abrham, Isaac and Jacob, the opposite of what you think is true. God through my works has brought two former Jews back to the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism and nine Gentiles have converted that I know of. That I don't know of, God does.

God held his faithful servant Job in great esteem, but a certain heavenly being stepped forward and claimed that Job wouldn’t bother worshipping God if he got no reward for doing so, and that if he lost everything that God had blessed him with, he would end up by cursing God to his face.

So God put his servant Job into the hands of this heavenly being, saying that he could take everything from Job, except his life. It was this heavenly being who had Job’s children killed by causing a storm to blow down the house in which they were having a feast, killing them all. He also caused the Sabeans to steal all Job's donkeys, killing his servants who were ploughing the fields, except for one, and stealing also the oxen with which they were ploughing.

He also caused lightening to strike the flocks of Job’s sheep and their shepherds, killing them all except for the one who reported it to Job. Plus, he had bands of Chaldean raiders attack the camel carers of Job stealing the camels and killing all his servants except for the one who escaped to tell Job.

As you have said that the Jews do not believe in Satan, what name do you give to this same heavenly being that we call “Satan”?

 

[Ben Masada]

God held his faithful servant Job in great esteem, but a certain heavenly being stepped forward and claimed that Job wouldn’t bother worshipping God if he got no reward for doing so, and that if he lost everything that God had blessed him with, he would end up by cursing God to his face.

And did he? Bring those curses of God to His face up for discussion. And what kind of God are you talking about? A God that the Devil can persuade to do whatever he wants? The whole book is a Jewish novel with the sacred purpose to teach about the place of Israel in the redemptive designs of God.

So God put his servant Job into the hands of this heavenly being, saying that he could take everything from Job, except his life. It was this heavenly being who had Job’s children killed by causing a storm to blow down the house in which they were having a feast, killing them all. He also caused the Sabeans to steal all Job's donkeys, killing his servants who were ploughing the fields, except for one, and stealing also the oxen with which they were ploughing.

And soon afterwards, Job had everything back on a double. Never mind the fictional characters and stick to the moral lesson of the allegory.

He also caused lightening to strike the flocks of Job’s sheep and their shepherds, killing them all except for the one who reported it to Job. Plus, he had bands of Chaldean raiders attack the camel carers of Job stealing the camels and killing all his servants except for the one who escaped to tell Job.

And all this as if the Job character existed in reality. And as if this certain heavenly being was doing all the havoc in the life of Job. Grow up, will you?

As you have said that the Jews do not believe in Satan, what name do you give to this same heavenly being that we call “Satan”?

Satan is a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Therofore, just an emanation. As a real being, Satan is only a fabrication by religious crooks to play with people's feelings, in order to make a living out of the naives of this world.

 

[S-word]

Quote...Ben...Satan is only a fabrication by religious crooks to play with people's feelings, in order to make a living out of the naives of this world.


So what you’re saying is that the adversary of Job as recorded in the Old Testament is only a fabrication by religious crooks to play with peoples feelings, in order to make a living out of the poor naive souls of this world.


According to God's word to Ezekiel 14: 14, and verse 20; it would appear that God saw Noah, Danel and Job as real people, and as I don't believe that you have any evidence that the story of Job was not a reality, could you name the religious crook who wrote the story of Job and his heavenly adversary who is called satan?

 

[Ben Masada]

Quote...Ben...Satan is only a fabrication by religious crooks to play with people's feelings, in order to make a living out of the naives of this world.


So what you’re saying is that the adversary of Job as recorded in the Old Testament is only a fabrication by religious crooks to play with peoples feelings, in order to make a living out of the poor naive souls of this world.


According to God's word to Ezekiel 14: 14, and verse 20; it would appear that God saw Noah, Danel and Job as real people, and as I don't believe that you have any evidence that the story of Job was not a reality, could you name the religious crook who wrote the story of Job and his heavenly adversary who is called satan?

Congratulations! You used the right term "Adversary." That's what Satan is, the concept of being adversary.

Probably Ezra or someone at the time of the Judges wrote the book of Job. Baruch de Spinoza believes that it was Ezra, since he was the one who wrote most of the historical books. But mind you that he was not a crook. He did not write that book for people to believe in Satan. He wrote it to teach a lesson about the place of Israel in the Counsel of God.

 

[S-word]

Congratulations! You used the right term "Adversary." That's what Satan is, the concept of being adversary.

Probably Ezra or someone at the time of the Judges wrote the book of Job. Baruch de Spinoza believes that it was Ezra, since he was the one who wrote most of the historical books. But mind you that he was not a crook. He did not write that book for people to believe in Satan. He wrote it to teach a lesson about the place of Israel in the Counsel of God.

So, we now know that you believe that the adversary of Job is called Satan, now what we want to know is, do you honestly believe as you have stated, that Job and Satan his adversary are fictitious characters that were created by Ezra?

Quote...Ben...And all this as if the Job character existed in reality. And as if this certain heavenly being was doing all the havoc in the life of Job. Grow up, will you?

Believing as you have stated, that Ezra wrote the five books of Moses and the book of Job which you believe is fictitious and that only a mental child who needs to grow up could be fooled into believing that Job was a real character that once existed, even though the Lord refers to Job in Ezekiel 14: 14, and verse 20, (Which by the way, was not written by Ezra) in company with Noah and Daniel; could it be according to your belief, that Adam, Noah, Moses and Job, are nothing more than fictitious characters created by Ezra?

Ben: They (The Books of Moses) were written many years later, almost sure by Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel.

 

[Ben Masada]

So, we now know that you believe that the adversary of Job is called Satan, now what we want to know is, do you honestly believe as you have stated, that Job and Satan his adversary are fictitious characters that were created by Ezra?

You are either too... no, I don't believe you are stupid; but you are too cunny to think that I will fall for your trap. I never said that the adversary of Job is called Satan. That's your saying. I said that Satan is a concept that means adversary. I said that Baruch de Spinoza is of the opinion that Ezra wrote most of the historical books, and probably Job too. But I am of the opinion that Job was written by someone from the time of the Judges. You can verify my post about this subject. Besides, Moses Maimonides says in his "Guide for the Perplexed" that Job was a fictitious character. Such a character never existed. And about Satan, I don't need the opinion of anybody to affirm that it is a fictitious character. Just a concept.

Believing as you have stated, that Ezra wrote the five books of Moses

Now, produce the post where I said that I believe Ezra wrote the five books of Moses. Now, you are acting like Satan by slandering.

and the book of Job which you believe is fictitious and that only a mental child who needs to grow up could be fooled into believing that Job was a real character that once existed, even though the Lord refers to Job in Ezekiel 14: 14, and verse 20, (Which by the way, was not written by Ezra) in company with Noah and Daniel; could it be according to your belief, that Adam, Noah, Moses and Job, are nothing more than fictitious characters created by Ezra?

What's the big deal to think that Ezra could have written Job? Everything is possible. They lived together in Babylon. Just because Ezekiel happened to mention Job in his book? It could be that Ezekiel copied from Ezra. Ezra was way more of an important person than Ezekiel was. If it were not for Ezra, the Second Jewish Commonwealth could not have been organized. Besides, the expression, "Even if these three men were in it, Noah, Daniel and Job, they could save only themselves for their virtue..." This had become in Israel, which still is, just a proverbial expression to reflect the corruption of a certain generation. All three could very well have been fictitious characters.

 

[S-word]

So, we now know that you believe that the adversary of Job is called Satan, now what we want to know is, do you honestly believe as you have stated, that Job and Satan his adversary are fictitious characters that were created by Ezra?

Quote Ben: I never said that the adversary of Job is called Satan. That's your saying. I said that Satan is a concept that means adversary.

It matters not whether you were referring to a mental concept or a reality old mate, what you have said you have said, and that is that the adversary of Job is called Satan.

Quote Ben: I said that Baruch de Spinoza is of the opinion that Ezra wrote most of the historical books, and probably Job too. But I am of the opinion that Job was written by someone from the time of the Judges. You can verify my post about this subject. Besides, Moses Maimonides says in his "Guide for the Perplexed" that Job was a fictitious character. Such a character never existed. And about Satan, I don't need the opinion of anybody to affirm that it is a fictitious character. Just a concept.

Oh, we know that you said that others have persuaded you to believe that Ezra concocted the story of Job, and believe them you do, as seen in your statement below

Quoted by Ben...Post 45: Baruch de Spinoza believes that it was Ezra, since he (Who? Ezra) was the one who wrote most of the historical books. But mind you that he (Who? Ezra) was not a crook. He (Who? Ezra) did not write that book for people to believe in Satan. He, (Who? Ezra) wrote it to teach a lesson about the place of Israel in the Counsel of God. Lie to others by all means if you wish to Ben, and try to persuade them that you did not say that you believe that it was Ezra who wrote the Job story which you believe was a figment of Ezra’s imagination; but to lie to yourself? If you can successively achieve that old mate then you are your own greatest adversary.


Quote Ben: Now, produce the post where I said that I believe Ezra wrote the five books of Moses. Now, you are acting like Satan by slandering. I thought you didn’t believe in Satan Ben; from where did you get your belief that Satan was a slanderer?

The fact that you have added, “But mind you that he (Who? Ezra) was not a crook etc,” to your statement in post 45: that Baruch de Spinoza believes that it was Ezra who wrote most of the historical books, shows that you agree with him.

Now, produce the post where I said that I believe Ezra wrote the five books of Moses. Post 113 from “The Meaning of Body Resurrection.” Ben: No, I don't. They (the five books of Moses) were written many years later, almost sure by Ezra, the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel. As you can see, I don't deny the truth

Quote Ben:This had become in Israel, which still is, just a proverbial expression to reflect the corruption of a certain generation. All three could very well have been fictitious characters.

You cannot believe that the stories recorded in the five Books of Moses which you are pretty sure were written by Ezra as stated by you, were actual historical facts if you believe for one moment that Noah could have been a fictitious character (Quote.. Ben: All three could very well have been fictitious characters.) as you have said and therefore obviously believe that Noah was nothing more than a figment of Ezra’s imagination. For if you believe that Ezra recorded actual historic event, then you cannot believe that Noah could have been a fictitious character. And as you believe that all three could have been fictitious characters, you are saying that even Daniel was but the figment of someone else’s imagination, revealing that you believe that nothing recorded in the Old Testament actually happened.

Quote Ben:Just because Ezekiel happened to mention Job in his book? It could be that Ezekiel copied from Ezra.

It was the Lord speaking through his prophet Ezekiel, who concidered that Noah, Daniel and Job were the three most rightous men until those days; but then why would you, who believe that Noah Daniel and Job could have all been fictitious characters, accept this?

 

[Ben Masada]

It matters not whether you were referring to a mental concept or a reality old mate, what you have said you have said, and that is that the adversary of Job is called Satan.

Both are ficticious characters: Satan and Job. Have you ever heard about Moses Maimonides? He says that Satan does not exist and that Job never existed either as a person. Therefore they were ficticious characters. I think that Maimonides knew a litter better than you and me.

Oh, we know that you said that others have persuaded you to believe that Ezra concocted the story of Job, and believe them you do, as seen in your statement.

You guys who live by the letter, have a limited mind to understand metaphorical language. If I give you references from Scholars and Philosophers, you don't want to hear. If I give you Biblical evidences, you don't want to hear. What do you want from me? I think Philosophers of the size of Spinoza and Maimonides knew much better than we do. They say that Job was a ficticious character, and personally, I find enough evidences in the book that's true. You don't see because your mind is not equipped for abstract thoughts.

I thought you didn’t believe in Satan Ben; from where did you get your belief that Satan was a slanderer?

See how short you are? Slanderer is not Satan but you. How can what does not exist be a slenderer?

You cannot believe that the stories recorded in the five Books of Moses which you are pretty sure were written by Ezra as stated by you, were actual historical facts if you believe for one moment that Noah could have been a fictitious character (Quote.. Ben: All three could very well have been fictitious characters.) as you have said and therefore obviously believe that Noah was nothing more than a figment of Ezra’s imagination.

Can you prove Noah and the Flood extra-Biblically? If you can, would you please share it with me? I would appreciate. The problem with you is that you don't have an open mind.

Quote Ben:Just because Ezekiel happened to mention Job in his book? It could be that Ezekiel copied from Ezra.

It was the Lord speaking through his prophet Ezekiel, who concidered that Noah, Daniel and Job were the three most rightous men until those days; but then why would you, who believe that Noah Daniel and Job could have all been fictitious characters, accept this?

Go ahead and endulge yourself. I understand you. You are still in the type level of reality. When you get to the archetype level of understanding, we will be able perhaps to hold an intelligent conversation. We can't have mind to mind dialogue. For me to speak from a my mind to your heart is too tiring. It's like reasoning with emotions.

 

[S-word]

Post 46________ Quote... Ben: Now, you are acting like Satan by slandering.

I thought you didn’t believe in Satan Ben; from where did you get your belief that Satan was a slanderer?


Post 48___________Quote... Ben: See how short you are? Slanderer is not Satan but you. How can what does not exist be a slenderer?

How can what does not exist be a slenderer?
Well to begin with, if you only eat food that doesn’t exist you’re going to get slenderer old mate, so my answer to your question here, is that food that does not exist can be a slenderer..

First you say that I’m acting like the supposedly fictitious character that exists in your mind, having been planted there, as you appear to believe, by Ezra who others have convinced you is an author of fiction. But whether or not you believe that Satan ever existed in reality is irrelevant, for you admit that he does exist in your mind and you see him as a slenderer, Oops, I meant slanderer, and you somehow believe that I am acting like the slanderous imaginary character that occupies such a large portion of your mind.


Both are ficticious characters: Satan and Job. Have you ever heard about Moses Maimonides?

It would appear that you have been much influenced by the Greeks as Moses Maimonides is his Greek name. But yes, I have heard about Moshe ben Maimon and I believe that he is wrong in saying that neither Satan nor Job ever existed.
I think Philosophers of the size of Spinoza and Maimonides knew much better than we do.
I found Henry More's "Refutation of Spinoza" an interesting read; obviously you have not read the same article.

He (Moshe ben Maimon) says that Satan does not exist and that Job never existed either as a person. Therefore they were ficticious characters.


Therefore they were ficticious characters just because Moshe ben Maimon says so? I think not.

Because Moshe ben Maimon says that Job never existed, does not make it so, I believe that God who said to Ezekiel his prophet, that Noah, Daniel and Job were real figures in history, indicates that Job is not a fictitious character and that you have been deceived by your Greek named "Moses Maimonides" into believing a fallacy.

I think that Maimonides knew a litter better than you and me.

He may have known a litter better that you Ben, but because the wife and I have bred cats over many years, I believe that I would know a good litter of kittens a little better than even Maimon the father of Moshe.

Go ahead and endulge yourself. I understand you.
I have every intention of continuing to indulge myself mate and I do hope that you are not offended by this Post, but honestly Ben, all jokes aside, you just can’t be taken seriously.

You are still in the type level of reality. When you get to the archetype level of understanding, we will be able perhaps to hold an intelligent conversation.

I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to hold an intelligent conversation with you Ben.

We can't have mind to mind dialogue. For me to speak from a my mind to your heart is too tiring. It's like reasoning with emotions.
Then you go and have a little rest old mate, and when you come back all refreshed you can tell me who you think wrote the Book of Ezra-Nehemiah around 450 BCE., or even later in the 4TH century, before Christ Jesus, who is the source to our Father and saviour who rose his servant Jesus from death and is able to raise we also, who are united to the one who has been chosen as the cornerstone to the new Temple in which God will dwell on earth: the Temple that will supercede the old Tabernacle, which is the body of mankind that is currentry the Kingdom of God that exists within the inner most sanctuary of the Body of mankind, in which the spiritual 'Son of Man' is developing?

 

[Ben Masada]

We can't have mind to mind dialogue. For me to speak from a my mind to your heart is too tiring. It's like reasoning with emotions.
Then you go and have a little rest old mate, and when you come back all refreshed you can tell me who you think wrote the Book of Ezra-Nehemiah around 450 BCE., or even later in the 4TH century, before Christ Jesus, who is the source to our Father and saviour who rose his servant Jesus from death and is able to raise we also, who are united to the one who has been chosen as the cornerstone to the new Temple in which God will dwell on earth: the Temple that will supercede the old Tabernacle, which is the body of mankind that is currentry the Kingdom of God that exists within the inner most sanctuary of the Body of mankind, in which the spiritual 'Son of Man' is developing?

Can you open your own NT and show me who was eyewitness that Jesus was raised from the dead? No, you can't. All you have is faith to accept what there is no evidence to prove anything.

 

[S-word]

Can you open your own NT and show me who was eyewitness that Jesus was raised from the dead? No, you can't. All you have is faith to accept what there is no evidence to prove anything.

Any person reading any ancient manuscript of any historical event can only believe by faith that the author has recorded accurately, the events that are referred to in those documents.

Knowing the insane hatred you hold for Paul, you ain’t going to like this old mate, but you did say to open the New Testament, which by the way is not my own as you have suggested, but belongs to all who are prepared to accept the Good News therein, yourself included Ben old mate.

According to the New Testament there were many witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus; and John recorded that he saw the spear thrust into the side of the body of Jesus from which wound there flowed copious amounts of blood and water. Because the risen Jesus invited Thomas Didymus Jude to put his fist into the wound in his side, we can be assured that from a wound of that size, Jesus, if not already dead, would have bled to death within moments, long before Joseph had gone to Pilate and asked for permission to remove the already dead body, as verified to Pilate by the Roman centurion.

The reason that the legs of the already dead body of Jesus were not broken like the two thieves who were crucified with him, was owing to the fact according to John 19: 36; that it had been prophesied in the Old Testament, “according to the New Testament,” which you asked me to go to in order to prove to you that Jesus was indeed resurrected, that not one bone in his body would be broken, see Exodus 12: 46, which points to Jesus the reality of the Paschal lamb, Numbers 9: 12, and Psalms 34: 20; and the reason that he was speared instead, was because it was also prophesied that “They will look to Him Whom they have pierced, Zechariah 12: 10.

Because blood and water flowed from the side of the already dead body in which the mind “Jesus,” had developed, it would appear that it had died from internal bleeding and the membrane that separates the heart from the stomach had ruptured. According to John, it was after the legs of the other two and the side of the already dead body of Jesus had been pierced and while the blood and water completely drained from that body of our Paschal lamb, Joseph went to Pilate to ask for the dead and bloodless body, which he was to bury in his own family tomb which had never been used.

The New Testament is very clear in its statement that the Body in which the mind of Jesus had developed, had died, and the fact that the form of that particular body was seen to be alive at least once and possibly twice after the day on which Jesus was crucified, is proof that Jesus was resurrected, and that His mother, “Mary the wife of Cleophas,” had witnessed the death of her eldest son whose brother James the younger of her three biological sons was sired by Alphaeus who is also called Cleophas, and she also witnessed his resurrected body.

Because the translation of that physical body into a spiritual body occurred within the sealed tomb, there could not have been any eye witness of any physical person to the actual translation, but there were witnesses to the fact that Jesus was resurrected. All this and not one word about Paul whom you so vehemently despise, oh well, perhaps later.

 

[Ben Masada]

Any person reading any ancient manuscript of any historical event can only believe by faith that the author has recorded accurately, the events that are referred to in those documents.

Where faith begins knowledge ends. (Disraeli) "And for lack of knowledge my People perish." (Hosea 4:6)

Knowing the insane hatred you hold for Paul, you ain’t going to like this old mate,

I hate no one. I only defend Judaism, whose image you distort before the world by using a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into it.

According to the New Testament there were many witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus; and John recorded that he saw the spear thrust into the side of the body of Jesus from which wound there flowed copious amounts of blood and water. Because the risen Jesus invited Thomas Didymus Jude to put his fist into the wound in his side, we can be assured that from a wound of that size, Jesus, if not already dead, would have bled to death within moments, long before Joseph had gone to Pilate and asked for permission to remove the already dead body, as verified to Pilate by the Roman centurion.

And you are ready to trust your faith in tales told 50+ years after Jesus was gone? The simple believes everything.

The reason that the legs of the already dead body of Jesus were not broken like the two thieves who were crucified with him, was owing to the fact according to John 19: 36; that it had been prophesied in the Old Testament, “according to the New Testament,” which you asked me to go to in order to prove to you that Jesus was indeed resurrected, that not one bone in his body would be broken, see Exodus 12: 46, which points to Jesus the reality of the Paschal lamb, Numbers 9: 12, and Psalms 34: 20; and the reason that he was speared instead, was because it was also prophesied that “They will look to Him Whom they have pierced, Zechariah 12: 10.


You have just told me that no one was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. And the Biblical quotations you use above have nothing to do with Jesus but by assumptions. One must be crazy to trut his faith on assumptions.

Because blood and water flowed from the side of the already dead body in which the mind “Jesus,” had developed, it would appear that it had died from internal bleeding and the membrane that separates the heart from the stomach had ruptured. According to John, it was after the legs of the other two and the side of the already dead body of Jesus had been pierced and while the blood and water completely drained from that body of our Paschal lamb, Joseph went to Pilate to ask for the dead and bloodless body, which he was to bury in his own family tomb which had never been used.

Tales that the Apostles themselves called idle. Idle tales they said was the news about Jesus' resurrection. (Luke 24:11) If the Apostles received the news about the resurrection as idle tales after less than 4 years with Jesus, you think that we after 2,000 years have to believe such tale that just won't stop being idle?

The New Testament is very clear in its statement that the Body in which the mind of Jesus had developed, had died, and the fact that the form of that particular body was seen to be alive at least once and possibly twice after the day on which Jesus was crucified, is proof that Jesus was resurrected, and that His mother, “Mary the wife of Cleophas,” had witnessed the death of her eldest son whose brother James the younger of her three biological sons was sired by Alphaeus who is also called Cleophas, and she also witnessed his resurrected body.


How clear can something be after 50+ years that could never be proved?

Because the translation of that physical body into a spiritual body occurred within the sealed tomb, there could not have been any eye witness of any physical person to the actual translation, but there were witnesses to the fact that Jesus was resurrected. All this and not one word about Paul whom you so vehemently despise, oh well, perhaps later.

Really! What kind of transformation of body was that if after the alleged death and resurrection Jesus would eat and drink with his disciples jus as he used to do before? Did you know that after eating and drinking as usual, it's only natural to defecate? Can you think of Jesus doing that after resurrection? Let's be serious!

 

[S-word]

Quote...S-word post 51: Any person reading any ancient manuscript of any historical event can only believe by faith that the author has recorded accurately, the events that are referred to in those documents.

Quote Ben post 52: Where faith begins knowledge ends. (Disraeli) "And for lack of knowledge my People perish." (Hosea 4:6)


Swords reply.... Where knowledge ends faith begins (S-word). Reading any ancient manuscript of any historical event and having no way of knowing (having knowledge) whether the author has recorded accurately, the events that are referred to in those documents, one must either accept by faith that the historian who lived in or around the time of the events in question, has recorded the facts to the best of their ability, or reject as truth, everything that is written in that document.

"And for lack of knowledge my People perish." (Hosea 4:6)

Swords reply.... Not that the words of the Lord spoken through Hosea has anything to do with Disraeli’s statement, but a better translation I believe can be found in the ‘Bible Society Chain Reference Bible’ Good News Edition; “My people are doomed because they do not acknowledge me etc” rather than exercise faith in the Lord and acknowledge him as God, they would worship fertility gods, but still have no children. They were asking a piece of Wood rather than He the Lord, for revelations, and a stick was telling them what they wanted to know. Through Hosea, the Lord likened his people to a woman who had become a prostitute and rather than acknowledging the Lord they had given themselves to other gods.
Rather than acknowledge the Lord, they would offer sacrifices to other gods on the mountain tops and burn incense on the hills under tall trees etc, etc. Through His prophet Hosea, the Lord said that his people were perishing because they refused to acknowledge and exercise faith in He, the God who spoke through their prophets, but who themselves had never seen or heard him speak.

Quote Ben post 52: I hate no one. I only defend Judaism, whose image you distort before the world by using a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into it.

Swords reply.... And you expect anyone who has read your attacks on the credibility and sincerity of Paul, to believe that you don’t hate him? And you believe that yours deliberate lies and distortions of the truths revealed in scripture are in defence of Judaism, do you?

 

[S-word]

continued from post 53

Quote...S-word post 51: According to the New Testament there were many witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus; and John recorded that he saw the spear thrust into the side of the body of Jesus from which wound there flowed copious amounts of blood and water. Because the risen Jesus invited Thomas Didymus Jude to put his fist into the wound in his side, we can be assured that from a wound of that size, Jesus, if not already dead, would have bled to death within moments, long before Joseph had gone to Pilate and asked for permission to remove the already dead body, as verified to Pilate by the Roman centurion.

Quote Ben post 52: And you are ready to trust your faith in tales told 50+ years after Jesus was gone? The simple believes everything.


Swords reply.... Not only do I put faith in the records of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as revealed in the New Testament, I also have faith in the records of the life of Moses which were written some hundreds of years after his death; which apparently, because of the length of time between his death and the written record of his life, you are of the view that only the simple minded could believe the stories of Moses.

Quote...S-word post 51: The reason that the legs of the already dead body of Jesus were not broken like the two thieves who were crucified with him, was owing to the fact according to John 19: 36; that it had been prophesied in the Old Testament, “according to the New Testament,” which you asked me to go to in order to prove to you that Jesus was indeed resurrected, that not one bone in his body would be broken, see Exodus 12: 46, which points to Jesus the reality of the Paschal lamb, Numbers 9: 12, and Psalms 34: 20; and the reason that he was speared instead, was because it was also prophesied that “They will look to Him Whom they have pierced, Zechariah 12: 10.


Quote Ben post 52: You have just told me that no one was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection. And the Biblical quotations you use above have nothing to do with Jesus but by assumptions. One must be crazy to trut his faith on assumptions.

Swords reply.... I assume nothing old mate, I simply repeat what John, while under the power of the spirit of our Father, has written.

Quote...S-word post 51: Because blood and water flowed from the side of the already dead body in which the mind “Jesus,” had developed, it would appear that it had died from internal bleeding and the membrane that separates the ruptured heart from the stomach had been pierced by the centurian's spear. According to John, it was after the legs of the other two and the side of the already dead body of Jesus had been pierced and while the blood and water completely drained from that body of our Paschal lamb, Joseph went to Pilate to ask for the dead and bloodless body, which, with the aid of Nicodemus, he was to bury in his own family tomb which had never been used.

Quote Ben post 52: Tales that the Apostles themselves called idle. Idle tales they said was the news about Jesus' resurrection. (Luke 24:11) If the Apostles received the news about the resurrection as idle tales after less than 4 years with Jesus, you think that we after 2,000 years have to believe such tale that just won't stop being idle?
Tales that the Apostles themselves called idle. Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves) Idle tales they said was the news about Jesus' resurrection. (Luke 24:11) Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves.

Swords reply.... You see Ben, you do believe the words of Luke, now sweep your eyes over to verse 36 of the same chapter written by the same man whose words you quote from as the truth. There you will see that Luke whom you believe speaks the truth, says that Cleophas the husband of Mary, and Simon the son of Cleophas and half brother to Jesus, who inherited the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision after the death of his half brother James, who died at the hands of the same Sadducee sect, that had Jesus, the brother of James killed, entered the room where 11 of the twelve disciples were cowering in fear.
Simon Peter and Simon the patriot were included among the 11, as it was only Thomas Jude, another half brother of Jesus who was called the twin who was not present on that evening, whether he was a twin or just held a striking resemblance to someone else, we’ll never know. Anyway, Cleophas who was in Emmaus when his son Simon recognised as the risen Christ, the stranger that had travelled with them, by the manner in which he broke the bread, said to the 11 disciples present in the room that the two had just entered, “He (Jesus) has risen, he appeared to Simon," which was obviously not Simon Peter or Simon the patriot who were locked in the room. While the two who had entered the room that had previously been locked, were speaking, Jesus came in and stood among them etc.
It was then that the apostles who had seen the life blood drain from the body in which the mind that was Jesus had developed, and who knew that it had been sealed in the tomb guarded by Roman soldiers at the request of the snivelling hypocritical Priests, were thoroughly convinced that they were witness to the resurrection of Jesus by our Father and saviour who is able to raise also, we who are united to Jesus the chosen cornerstone to his new temple on earth, the glorious bodies of incorruptible light which will supercede the old Tent of God which is the body of mankind; for the kingdom of God is within you, and may his kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven. We can now ignore your statement below as the verbal manure that it is seen to be.

Quote Ben post 52: If the Apostles received the news about the resurrection as idle tales after less than 4 years with Jesus, you think that we after 2,000 years have to believe such tale that just won't stop being idle?


Quote...S-word post 51: The New Testament is very clear in its statement that the Body in which the mind of Jesus had developed, had died, and the fact that the actual form of that particular body was seen to be alive at least once and possibly twice after the day on which Jesus was crucified, is proof that Jesus was resurrected, and that His mother, “Mary the wife of Cleophas,” had witnessed the death of her eldest son whose brother James the younger of her three biological sons, was sired by Alphaeus who is also called Cleophas, and she also witnessed his resurrected body.


Quote Ben post 52: How clear can something be after 50+ years that could never be proved?
Swords reply.... They say that about the books of Moses also, and they were written as it is believed, after some hundreds of years and yet, by faith I believe them.

Quote...S-word post 51: Because the translation of that physical body into a spiritual body occurred within the sealed tomb, there could not have been any eye witness of any physical person to the actual translation, but there were witnesses to the fact that Jesus was resurrected. All this and not one word about Paul whom you so vehemently despise, oh well, perhaps later.

Quote Ben post 52: Really! What kind of transformation of body was that if after the alleged death and resurrection Jesus would eat and drink with his disciples jus as he used to do before? Did you know that after eating and drinking as usual, it's only natural to defecate? Can you think of Jesus doing that after resurrection? Let's be serious!
Swords reply.... Frankly Ben, I would never let the vision of my King squatting down in a cave or behind a rock defecating, even enter my mind. But yes, it is said by Luke that on that first evening when Thomas Jude, who is called the twin was not present, and Cleophas and his son had entered the room that had previously been locked, the form that they believed was Jesus came into that dimly lit room and ate with them. But according to John 20: 26; A week later when Thomas Didymus Jude,(Didymus, meaning twin) was with the disciples, this time in a locked room, Jesus appeared among them, and on this second appearance, when Thomas Jude was invited to thrust his fist into the gaping wound in his side, from which all the blood of our paschal lamb had ebbed, Jesus is not recorded to have eaten anything.

 

[Ben Masada]

Quote Ben post 52: I hate no one. I only defend Judaism, whose image you distort before the world by using a religious Jew to insert Hellenistic innovations into it.

Swords reply.... And you expect anyone who has read your attacks on the credibility and sincerity of Paul, to believe that you don’t hate him? And you believe that yours deliberate lies and distortions of the truths revealed in scripture are in defence of Judaism, do you?

Paul is dead. I cannot hate the dead or attack him. I am defending Judaism from those who use his writings to distort its image before the world.

"My deliberate lies!" The point is that you haven't been able to refute even one of them, but with assumptions that are no different from lies that you cannot prove.

 

[Ben Masada]

Swords reply.... Not only do I put faith in the records of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as revealed in the New Testament, I also have faith in the records of the life of Moses which were written some hundreds of years after his death; which apparently, because of the length of time between his death and the written record of his life, you are of the view that only the simple minded could believe the stories of Moses.

Ben: Why that now, because you cannot prove that Jesus resurrected? That's childish behaviour.


Swords reply.... I assume nothing old mate, I simply repeat what John, while under the power of the spirit of our Father, has written.

Ben: His book came out between 95 and 100 CE. A Hellenistic Gentile writing about Judaism. What reliability is possible to find in this?


Tales that the Apostles themselves called idle. Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves) Idle tales they said was the news about Jesus' resurrection. (Luke 24:11) Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves.

Ben: To see someone alive after his crucifixion is no proof of his death and much less of resurrection. You have got to do much better than that. At least, read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples for about 40 days after his suffering or passion, with convincing proofs that he was alive. Eating and drinking just before his crucifixion. "After his suffering or passion" is an otherwise confession that he did not die or resurrected. Then, among the "many convincing proofs" was to eat and drink with his disciples. Whoever eats and drinks must defecate. Are you read for this about Jesus in a glorified body after his resurrection? I doubt it.

Anyway, Cleophas who was in Emmaus when his son Simon recognised as the risen Christ, the stranger that had travelled with them, by the manner in which he broke the bread, said to the 11 disciples present in the room that the two had just entered, “He (Jesus) has risen, he appeared to Simon," which was obviously not Simon Peter or Simon the patriot who were locked in the room. While the two who had entered the room that had previously been locked, were speaking, Jesus came in and stood among them etc.

Ben: I asked for an eyewitness for the resurrection of Jesus and so far you give me only second-hand information. You haven't proved a thing yet that Jesus ever resurrected.

It was then that the apostles who had seen the life blood drain from the body in which the mind that was Jesus had developed, and who knew that it had been sealed in the tomb guarded by Roman soldiers at the request of the snivelling hypocritical Priests, were thoroughly convinced that they were witness to the resurrection of Jesus by our Father and saviour who is able to raise also, we who are united to Jesus the chosen cornerstone to his new temple on earth, the glorious bodies of incorruptible light which will supercede the old Tent of God which is the body of mankind; for the kingdom of God is within you, and may his kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven. We can now ignore your statement below as the verbal manure that it is seen to be.

Ben: All you can do is to accuse the Jewish authorities for having caused the death of Jesus, when even the head of Christianity Pope John 23rd has recognized that it was a lie perpetrated by the Church. Otherwise, he would have asked the Jewish People to forgive the writers of the NT and not Christianity. He knew that it was the Church who fabricated the conspiracy, that you keep perpetuating like an anti-Semite.

Swords reply.... They say that about the books of Moses also, and they were written as it is believed, after some hundreds of years and yet, by faith I believe them.

Ben: What is that supposed to mean, that what the guys who wrote in the gospels is reliable? Have mercy!

 

[S-word]

Swords reply.... Not only do I put faith in the records of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus as revealed in the New Testament, I also have faith in the records of the life of Moses which were written some hundreds of years after his death; which apparently, because of the length of time between his death and the written record of his life, you are of the view that only the simple minded could believe the stories of Moses.

Ben: Why that now, because you cannot prove that Jesus resurrected? That's childish behaviour.


Swords reply.... I assume nothing old mate, I simply repeat what John, while under the power of the spirit of our Father, has written.

Ben: His book came out between 95 and 100 CE. A Hellenistic Gentile writing about Judaism. What reliability is possible to find in this?


Tales that the Apostles themselves called idle. Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves) Idle tales they said was the news about Jesus' resurrection. (Luke 24:11) Until they saw the risen Jesus themselves.

Ben: To see someone alive after his crucifixion is no proof of his death and much less of resurrection. You have got to do much better than that. At least, read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples for about 40 days after his suffering or passion, with convincing proofs that he was alive. Eating and drinking just before his crucifixion. "After his suffering or passion" is an otherwise confession that he did not die or resurrected. Then, among the "many convincing proofs" was to eat and drink with his disciples. Whoever eats and drinks must defecate. Are you read for this about Jesus in a glorified body after his resurrection? I doubt it.

Anyway, Cleophas who was in Emmaus when his son Simon recognised as the risen Christ, the stranger that had travelled with them, by the manner in which he broke the bread, said to the 11 disciples present in the room that the two had just entered, “He (Jesus) has risen, he appeared to Simon," which was obviously not Simon Peter or Simon the patriot who were locked in the room. While the two who had entered the room that had previously been locked, were speaking, Jesus came in and stood among them etc.

Ben: I asked for an eyewitness for the resurrection of Jesus and so far you give me only second-hand information. You haven't proved a thing yet that Jesus ever resurrected.

It was then that the apostles who had seen the life blood drain from the body in which the mind that was Jesus had developed, and who knew that it had been sealed in the tomb guarded by Roman soldiers at the request of the snivelling hypocritical Priests, were thoroughly convinced that they were witness to the resurrection of Jesus by our Father and saviour who is able to raise also, we who are united to Jesus the chosen cornerstone to his new temple on earth, the glorious bodies of incorruptible light which will supercede the old Tent of God which is the body of mankind; for the kingdom of God is within you, and may his kingdom come on earth, as it is in heaven. We can now ignore your statement below as the verbal manure that it is seen to be.

Ben: All you can do is to accuse the Jewish authorities for having caused the death of Jesus, when even the head of Christianity Pope John 23rd has recognized that it was a lie perpetrated by the Church. Otherwise, he would have asked the Jewish People to forgive the writers of the NT and not Christianity. He knew that it was the Church who fabricated the conspiracy, that you keep perpetuating like an anti-Semite.

Swords reply.... They say that about the books of Moses also, and they were written as it is believed, after some hundreds of years and yet, by faith I believe them.

Ben: What is that supposed to mean, that what the guys who wrote in the gospels is reliable? Have mercy!

Ben: To see someone alive after his crucifixion is no proof of his death and much less of resurrection. You have got to do much better than that. At least, read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples for about 40 days after his suffering or passion, with convincing proofs that he was alive.

S-word: Jesus appeared to the women at the tomb, who thought that he was a a gardener until they recognised his voice when he spoke the name "Mary. Jesus appeared to Cleophas and Simon as they walked to Emmaus and was not recognised as Jesus untill they saw the manner in which he broke the bread. After hauling in the net filled with fishes and eating with the man who had told them where to drop their net, not one of the disciples dared to ask who that man was, but they understood that he was Jesus. Even when they witnessed his ascension into heaven as a cloud, some did not believe that it was Jesus.

Yes, Jesus did appear to his disciples during the 40 days after the death of the body in which he the mind/spirit had developed as an obedient servant and the compilation of all the righteous ancestors who were at rest in He and who rose from their graves on the day he died and after three days, they entered the city and showed themselves as the risen Christ; and they, the risen body of Jesus are soon to be seen as the first resurrection, and it is they, 'the required number of Jews and Gentiles,' who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through who, their spiritual compilation, who is our Lord and King, will rule the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that fist day of one thousand years at the age of 930. I defy you to show in scripture, where it is written that Jesus appeared more that twice in the bodily form that he was recognised by, when he was a human being.

Ben: His book came out between 95 and 100 CE. A Hellenistic Gentile writing about Judaism. What reliability is possible to find in this?


S-word: Johns writtings were transcribed by others after his death, and his words are recorded by them as the Gospel according to John.

Wipe that muck off your chin Ben, the mental manure that's dribbling out of your mouth is beginning to foul the atmosphere. You have made a complete idiot of yourself old mate and the peolpe who have read your idiotic and childish statements, would see anyone of normal intelligence who mentally mauls an imature child such as yourself, as being a cruel, callous, insensitive and unfeeling monster, and not wishing to be accused as such, I must bid farewell to this thread also.

I would ask any sincere person of the Jewish faith,to straighten you out Ben, before your so called defense of Judaism makes a laughing stock of those who are sincere in their faith. This is my last post in this particular Thread as was my previous post in another of your threads, "The Meaning of Body Resurrection," which your pathetic responses has reduced to meaningless babble, as is the case in this Thread also.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben: To see someone alive after his crucifixion is no proof of his death and much less of resurrection. You have got to do much better than that. At least, read Acts 1:1-3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciples for about 40 days after his suffering or passion, with convincing proofs that he was alive.

S-word: Jesus appeared to the women at the tomb, who thought that he was a a gardener until they recognised his voice when he spoke the name "Mary. Jesus appeared to Cleophas and Simon as they walked to Emmaus and was not recognised as Jesus untill they saw the manner in which he broke the bread. After hauling in the net filled with fishes and eating with the man who had told them where to drop their net, not one of the disciples dared to ask who that man was, but they understood that he was Jesus. Even when they witnessed his ascension into heaven as a cloud, some did not believe that it was Jesus.

Ben: So, that's your final word that you cannot provide an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus? Because to have seen him alive after the crucifixion is no proof that he had died and much less resurrected.

Yes, Jesus did appear to his disciples during the 40 days after the death of the body in which he the mind/spirit had developed as an obedient servant and the compilation of all the righteous ancestors who were at rest in He and who rose from their graves on the day he died and after three days, they entered the city and showed themselves as the risen Christ; and they, the risen body of Jesus are soon to be seen as the first resurrection, and it is they, 'the required number of Jews and Gentiles,' who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through who, their spiritual compilation, who is our Lord and King, will rule the seventh period of one thousand years from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that fist day of one thousand years at the age of 930. I defy you to show in scripture, where it is written that Jesus appeared more that twice in the bodily form that he was recognised by, when he was a human being.

Ben: You are still to show me in your NT an eyewitness for the resurrection of Jesus. How can you defy me to show anything else about Jesus as a response to my request for an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection? That's not how things work. If you can't provide me with that eyewitness, I expect never to hear again of a "resurrection which we are eyewitnesses."

Ben: His book came out between 95 and 100 CE. A Hellenistic Gentile writing about Judaism. What reliability is possible to find in this?


S-word: Johns writtings were transcribed by others after his death, and his words are recorded by them as the Gospel according to John.


Ben: Now, you are speculating about something else. You can't prove anything I ask and continue speculating about things you can't proof.

Wipe that muck off your chin Ben, the mental manure that's dribbling out of your mouth is beginning to foul the atmosphere. You have made a complete idiot of yourself old mate and the peolpe who have read your idiotic and childish statements, would see anyone of normal intelligence who mentally mauls an imature child such as yourself, as being a cruel, callous, insensitive and unfeeling monster, and not wishing to be accused as such, I must bid farewell to this thread also.


Ben: You can't prove anything I ask and I am the one who is eating manure? Are you trying to reflect the image of the real idiot here? Why claim eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection if you can't show any eyewitness evidence for what you say?

I would ask any sincere person of the Jewish faith,to straighten you out Ben, before your so called defense of Judaism makes a laughing stock of those who are sincere in their faith. This is my last post in this particular Thread as was my previous post in another of your threads, "The Meaning of Body Resurrection," which your pathetic responses has reduced to meaningless babble, as is the case in this Thread also.


Ben: I knew this would end up this way. It never fails. I let them talk and keep talking. The moment I ask for evidential proof of something, they usually fall flat on their stomach and run away like a snake.

 

[Humanistheart]

Herod who died sometime in April of 4B.C., after a failed suicide attempt, knew from the wise men that Jesus was about two years old, and that it was according to the information that he received from the wise men as to the time that they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of Jesus, that he determined the age of the boys who were to be slaughtered as two years and below, which means that Jesus was born about 6B.C.,or seven B.C., when there were conjunctions between Jupiter, saturn and Mars, which preceded the arrival of the comet in 5 B. C., with a huge tail that remained visible in the night sky for some 70 days, which led the wise men to Galilee where they found the two year old Jesus.

No, the fact is we do not know when jesus was born. This argument is founded on the idea that the Herod story is in fact the correct one. However, historically we know Herod ordered no such slaughter of infants, nor are there any historical observances of a new star, comet, or any other phenominon that could account for this story. The point being the herod related version of jesus' birth story is no where near accurate.

 

[S-word]

No, the fact is we do not know when jesus was born. This argument is founded on the idea that the Herod story is in fact the correct one. However, historically we know Herod ordered no such slaughter of infants, nor are there any historical observances of a new star, comet, or any other phenominon that could account for this story. The point being the herod related version of jesus' birth story is no where near accurate.

S-words answer: My dear friend, you may choose to disbelieve God’s Holy Word, that is your concern, not mine.

Quote... Humanistheart: No, the fact is we do not know when jesus was born
S-words answer: The facts are, that the bible reveals the approximate year of the birth of Jesus. According to those who believe the Word of God, the simple fact that Herod, who believed Jesus to be somewhere between one and two years old, had died in 4 B.C., is evidence that Jesus was born, in the years prior to his death and the fact that Jesus was still a baby, when Joseph was forced to seek refuge for his wife and her child in the land of Egypt, and returned to Galilee with the baby Jesus shortly after the death of Herod, is evidence that Jesus was born somewhere between 7and 6 B.C. What the detractors of the Word of God believe, is totally irrelevant.

Quote... Humanistheart: This argument is founded on the idea that the Herod story is in fact the correct one. However, historically we know Herod ordered no such slaughter of infants,
S-words answer: First of all let’s clear up you ignorant statement “This argument is founded on the idea that the Herod story (recorded by Matthew) is in fact the correct one.” Matthew’s account of Herod, the wise men and the slaughter of the innocents, is not only the correct one; it is the only record of that event.

And I suppose that you can provide the historical document which states that Herod did not order the slaughter of the innocents, if not then you lie? There is absolutely no historical evidence as to whether Herod ordered the slaughter of the innocents in the district where the one to two year old Jesus lived at that time, or whether he did not; that is, apart from the Word of God which states that he did.
There is of course no historical evidence of any great upheaval in the district around the southern town of Bethlehem of Judea where Jesus was born, but there is historical evidence of a great slaughter around the district to which Mary and Joseph returned as recorded by Luke, when Jesus was about two months old, and that is the district around Nazareth, the northern town of Bethlehem, which is today called Beitlahm, and Sepphorus, which majestic Hellenistic city that had suffered so much damage in 4 B.C., was rebuilt by Herod’s son in 3 B.C.

Quote... Humanistheart: nor are there any historical observances of a new star, comet, or any other phenominon that could account for this story.
S-words answer: Lake Country Astronomical Society --- 'Astronomy, Astrology, and the star of Bethlehem'. ...John Clevenger
Did any unusual astronomical phenomenon occur between 8 and two B.C.? As it happens there were several Notable celestial event during that period. The Chinese (Whose ancient records of heavenly events, has proved very reliable) reported two comets during that time. The comet of 5 B.C., in Capricornus and visible for 70 days, was reported to have a tail. Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University believes that this comet, which he describes as having a vertical tail, appeared at the time of the Jewish Passover.
Prof Humphreys believes that this started the Magi, who were knowledgeable of the Jewish prophecy recorded in the Book of Micah, concerning the birth of a Jewish King, (And the prophecy in Numbers 24: 17-19) on their journey. If right about the vertical tail, this could agree with the Biblical account in Matthew that the star “Stood over where the young child was. (The term “Stood Over” in ancient literature, refers to comets and comets only) The comet of 4 B.C., (Not to be confused with the comet of 5 B.C. But the comet of 4 B.C.) had no tail and whether it was a comet or a nova is unknown.

You may check for yourself the scientific accuracy of the conjunction of Jupiter in 7 B.C., and the triple conjunction in 6 B.C., why should I have to do all the leg work for those who make no attempt to verify the truth of God’s Word, but are more concerned, with attempting to discredit it. People such as yourself and the comic poison spitting cobra, who squirts uncorroborated rubbish into the eyes of those who are seeking the truth, in its attempt to blind them to the only path that leds to the redemption from this world that is destined to burn.