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The meaning of Islam
- Thread starter maj123
- Start date
Nehustan wrote - .... God, and his agents have been playing a benevolent role in trying to ascend man toward his higher nature. This has taken place through revelation and of course science, which to my mind is also revelatory.
Nehustn explained - While I don't believe that God speaks to people generally, either by audible voice or as a voice in the mind, I do believe that people receive inspiration, what we call ‘hidayah’. I believe this can involve science, or can also involve the more mundane ,i.e. relationships etcetera. In my experience it has often taken the form of subtle synchronicities.
Nehustan elaborates - God communicates via signs. Whether they be the signs in the Quran (i.e. ayat), the signs within creation (i.e. Macrocosm), or signs within himself (microcosm). -
Clear asks for explanation - The word "signs" is a bit too cryptic for me to understand. Can you define for a non-muslim, just what "signs" are?
Nehustan replies - Well the 'verses' in the Quran are called 'ayat' which means sign. AND he proves a cryptic picture of a smoking pipe......
Nehustan;
Now I feel like we are going in circles. Are you saying that the only way Allah speaks to Muslims nowadays is through the quran/ayats (i.e. the written word), or do you believe Allah speaks to Muslims through direct revelation in some manner.
If you are not being serious or simply don't know, it is ok to simply tell me this, but please don't offer cryptic or confusing words that might mean something to another Muslim but not to non-muslims.
Clear
Nehustn explained - While I don't believe that God speaks to people generally, either by audible voice or as a voice in the mind, I do believe that people receive inspiration, what we call ‘hidayah’. I believe this can involve science, or can also involve the more mundane ,i.e. relationships etcetera. In my experience it has often taken the form of subtle synchronicities.
Nehustan elaborates - God communicates via signs. Whether they be the signs in the Quran (i.e. ayat), the signs within creation (i.e. Macrocosm), or signs within himself (microcosm). -
Clear asks for explanation - The word "signs" is a bit too cryptic for me to understand. Can you define for a non-muslim, just what "signs" are?
Nehustan replies - Well the 'verses' in the Quran are called 'ayat' which means sign. AND he proves a cryptic picture of a smoking pipe......
Nehustan;
Now I feel like we are going in circles. Are you saying that the only way Allah speaks to Muslims nowadays is through the quran/ayats (i.e. the written word), or do you believe Allah speaks to Muslims through direct revelation in some manner.
If you are not being serious or simply don't know, it is ok to simply tell me this, but please don't offer cryptic or confusing words that might mean something to another Muslim but not to non-muslims.
Clear
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I believe that Allah gave us the Quran as a guidance and inspiration to walk through this life, and the more we concentrate on the meanings of the Quran and have a genuine attempt to understand it, then Allah would open more doors of knowledge in our heart and make things clearer for us. I have experienced this and still do.
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
Well to Muslims He [Allah] chose to designate the 'verses' by the name 'ayat' which as I've said means 'sign'. Within the Quran he [Allah] speaks of 'metaphor', 'allegory' and 'signs'.
Within creation signs also exist, birds signal dawn, a certain type of cloud signals rain. Birds are not the dawn, nor clouds rain, and as the Magritte painting I posted showing the image of a pipe says 'This is not a pipe'.
If you say that's too 'cryptic', then bear in mind that a related word 'cryptogram' means
"A piece of cryptographic writing; anything written in cipher, or in such a form or order that a key is required in order to know how to understand and put together the letters."
with 'cipher' itself having the meaning (beyond the 'numeral' zero) of
"A symbolic character, a hieroglyph."
It's not a requirement to understand Islam to understand what is meant by 'sign'. One doesn't even really have to have any knowledge of semiotics. Signs are an interesting subject even at the level of common sense. There is a common English axiom 'a picture paints a thousand words', so to decrypt a sign or series of signs would take more than a few words in a forum.
I don't mean to confuse you at all, I think I've spoken relatively plainly. If however you feel confused, please don't take out that personal characteristic upon me.
Within creation signs also exist, birds signal dawn, a certain type of cloud signals rain. Birds are not the dawn, nor clouds rain, and as the Magritte painting I posted showing the image of a pipe says 'This is not a pipe'.
If you say that's too 'cryptic', then bear in mind that a related word 'cryptogram' means
"A piece of cryptographic writing; anything written in cipher, or in such a form or order that a key is required in order to know how to understand and put together the letters."
with 'cipher' itself having the meaning (beyond the 'numeral' zero) of
"A symbolic character, a hieroglyph."
It's not a requirement to understand Islam to understand what is meant by 'sign'. One doesn't even really have to have any knowledge of semiotics. Signs are an interesting subject even at the level of common sense. There is a common English axiom 'a picture paints a thousand words', so to decrypt a sign or series of signs would take more than a few words in a forum.
I don't mean to confuse you at all, I think I've spoken relatively plainly. If however you feel confused, please don't take out that personal characteristic upon me.
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Nehustan
Well-Known Member
I will however take a minute to quote an ayat (sign) of the Quran (a few translations of it...why not?)
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem
In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them­selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything? (41:53 Asad)
Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (41:53 Yusuf Ali)
We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things? (41:53 Picktall)
Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem
In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them­selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything? (41:53 Asad)
Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? (41:53 Yusuf Ali)
We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things? (41:53 Picktall)
TashaN -
1) I believe that when we study ANY subject with genuine intent to gain understanding, things are made somewhat clearer to us. (whether we ever understand it well is a different matter). This is also true of the athiests as it is of the believers. What I am trying to understand is whether Muslims believe that Allah gives personal and direct revelation to Muslims.
Perhaps it will help if I give you an example to compare to (since this is a comparative religion thread).
The “opening of doors of knowledge” and the “making clear of things” that is the result of Personal and direct revelation from Allah to a person (such as the gift of the Holy Ghost manifest by Jews and early Christians) is different in quality and quantity than the enlightenment that comes from use of our own intellect. It is intelligence and knowledge which comes from Allah, and given to an individual directly. It is more than the enlightenment that accompanies reading.
It is intelligence and knowledge that comes from another being. This is the sort of revelation of Judaism and Christianity. Does Islam claim to have this sort of inspiration from Allah or does the Muslim believe that only the reading of inspired words themselves work upon the mind of believers?
When you had your enlightment as a Muslim, reading the Quran, are you claiming it is direct communication from Allah or from his Holy Spirit that was apart from reading the printed word?
Perhaps it is I who have not been clear. Do you understand what it is I am asking in this line of questioning?
2) Nehustan quoted another Ayat as follows:
The revelation" referenced in this ayat does NOT seem to refer to direct revelation given from Allah to the individual Muslim, but rather, it seems to refer to the revelation given from Allah to Mohammed (PBUH). Am I wrong in this assumption?
Is the principle of revelation that was operative in Mohammed (PBUH), operative in the lives of individual Muslims (direct revelation from Allah)?
Clear
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It's not the same, because Allah will assist us in this understanding, it's not only ours.
Ok now i got what you mean. We Muslims don't have the (Father, Son, Holy spirit) distunction, so we don't say that was Allah, or no, that was his holy spirit. There is only one God, Allah. We don't receive personal revelation in the way christians claim they do, but we only can deepen in knowledge and understanding the more we are sincere, and the more we seek knowledge and pray to God.
No, there is no such thing in Islam, and at the same time, mere words won't work on us like magic. We have to use the word of God as a guidance for us to reach to him. Then, he will place inspiration into our heart to do more good, and understand more the wonders of this life and the other life. Only Prophet Mohammed could receive a direct revelation and communication from God, of course after Jesus and all the previous prophets of Allah.
Again, mere printed words are of no use if you don't believe in them, and the moment you believe in them, that means you are on the first step in the ladder of success in this life and the hereafter. These words are the literal word of God and he is talking to us through it, just the same as when someone send a letter to you explaining himself and many other issues like how to reach to him, etc. Then when we BELIEVE then USE these words and APPLY it in our life, we will taste success and peace of mind which will make us closer to Allah and have more knowledge and more wisdom. It's so simple as a b c. Allah said pray to me and i'll answer you.
So, we just have to pray to him and he will answer us in many ways through the *signs* which you couldn't get from Nehustan posts.
God will not call your name and tell you to go right or left. He will give you sort of clues then these signs and clues will lead you more to him.
I know you are directing this question to my brother Nehustan, but i'm wondering why you think this was directed only toward prophet Mohammed, not all human beings?
No.
1) Regarding the revelation that I am asking about : It is when Allah reveals (i.e. “revelation”
or gives some bit of intelligence and knowledge to us. It is not simply a profound feeling that we, ourselves generate but it is something that comes from another being, either from Allah, or from one of his angels, or from his spirit....
My question was: Do individual Muslims claim to have this sort of revelation from Allah or do the Muslims believe that they may read words of revelation given to another (i.e. Mohammed -PBUH), but NOT have revelation given to themselves?
Your answer was “We don't receive personal revelation in the way christians claim they do, but we only can deepen in knowledge and understanding the more we are sincere, and the more we seek knowledge and pray to God.”
This was what the sort of information that I was looking for in trying to understand what sort of “inspiration” the Muslims believe they can have. Theist and non-theists alike, are able to progress from one level of understanding to a greater level by applying their intelligence to a subject. All of us have the capability of profound emotional response to what we read.
All of us can (as you put it), “deepen in knowledge and understanding the more we are sincere and the more we seek knowledge...”. Even the Atheist can truthfully claim this happens to them. I was wondering if Muslims could get beyond these normal abilities and have true revelation given them by Allah.
Your usage of the word “inspiration” was a bit confusing to me. This may be because you use it differently than I am used to using it.
2) Perhaps I am not used to the Muslim way of communicating.
When I asked “Does Islam claim to have this sort of inspiration from Allah ....”, you answered “No, there is no such thing in Islam,...” This was what I was looking for. I wanted to simply know whether Muslims had faith in revelation directly from Allah to themselves as individuals.
What confuses me is the tendency you have of making a statement such as “No, there is no such thing in Islam”, and then just a few words later you say “he will place inspiration into our heart to do more good”. It is confusing to have you say “NO” (in big capitals) and then try to claim a “yes” (in tiny letters). I can't tell if this is a different usage of terms; or a reluctance to admit there is no modern revelation in Islam; or if it is an idiosyncrasy of our different methods of communication. To me it is clear that Either Allah does or does not give Muslims revelation.
However, after the entire discussion , I think you really are saying “No”, Muslims do not believe in direct revelation of knowledge or intelligence directly from Allah, to themselves as individuals. This was my question question regarding revelation.
If I do not understand correctly, PLEASE correct me. I do NOT want to get an erroneous impression regarding Islam. Also, I sincerely apologize if I seemed frustrated or unkind. Thank you for your efforts Nehustan and TashaN.
Clear
(P.s.If you reply back and I need to answer, I may be able to answer today, or I may leave on a vacation before answering - I’ll be back in 3 days...) In any case, I appreciate your attempts to answer this very profound and important principle TashaN and Nehustan.
or gives some bit of intelligence and knowledge to us. It is not simply a profound feeling that we, ourselves generate but it is something that comes from another being, either from Allah, or from one of his angels, or from his spirit....My question was: Do individual Muslims claim to have this sort of revelation from Allah or do the Muslims believe that they may read words of revelation given to another (i.e. Mohammed -PBUH), but NOT have revelation given to themselves?
Your answer was “We don't receive personal revelation in the way christians claim they do, but we only can deepen in knowledge and understanding the more we are sincere, and the more we seek knowledge and pray to God.”
This was what the sort of information that I was looking for in trying to understand what sort of “inspiration” the Muslims believe they can have. Theist and non-theists alike, are able to progress from one level of understanding to a greater level by applying their intelligence to a subject. All of us have the capability of profound emotional response to what we read.
All of us can (as you put it), “deepen in knowledge and understanding the more we are sincere and the more we seek knowledge...”. Even the Atheist can truthfully claim this happens to them. I was wondering if Muslims could get beyond these normal abilities and have true revelation given them by Allah.
Your usage of the word “inspiration” was a bit confusing to me. This may be because you use it differently than I am used to using it.
2) Perhaps I am not used to the Muslim way of communicating.
When I asked “Does Islam claim to have this sort of inspiration from Allah ....”, you answered “No, there is no such thing in Islam,...” This was what I was looking for. I wanted to simply know whether Muslims had faith in revelation directly from Allah to themselves as individuals.
What confuses me is the tendency you have of making a statement such as “No, there is no such thing in Islam”, and then just a few words later you say “he will place inspiration into our heart to do more good”. It is confusing to have you say “NO” (in big capitals) and then try to claim a “yes” (in tiny letters). I can't tell if this is a different usage of terms; or a reluctance to admit there is no modern revelation in Islam; or if it is an idiosyncrasy of our different methods of communication. To me it is clear that Either Allah does or does not give Muslims revelation.
However, after the entire discussion , I think you really are saying “No”, Muslims do not believe in direct revelation of knowledge or intelligence directly from Allah, to themselves as individuals. This was my question question regarding revelation.
If I do not understand correctly, PLEASE correct me. I do NOT want to get an erroneous impression regarding Islam. Also, I sincerely apologize if I seemed frustrated or unkind. Thank you for your efforts Nehustan and TashaN.
Clear
(P.s.If you reply back and I need to answer, I may be able to answer today, or I may leave on a vacation before answering - I’ll be back in 3 days...) In any case, I appreciate your attempts to answer this very profound and important principle TashaN and Nehustan.
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Nehustan
Well-Known Member
Muslims believe that God is the true and only reality. In Arabic that would be expressed using two names of God, i.e. Allah Al Haqq. This reality is veiled from us most often, and in fact it is said that if man could see the mechanisms of the universe all the time his life would be unbearable and he would have the appearance of a madman. The unseen world is veiled from us with good cause. However, this said, there are times during which man glimpses, if not the nature of God, then at least the nature of the unseen world. During such times, which I have experienced myself, the almost clockwork mechanisms of the universe appear apparent, and in such an ASC, the synchronicities I spoke of come in hard and fast. People who meditate experience this phenomenon, as do Muslims during fasting and intense periods of sunnah prayers, as also do people under the influence of psychoactive compounds, be they alcohol, caffeine based, marijuana, cactus derived etcetera.
In this context, i.e. everything being under the sovereignty of God, nothing that occurs is without original cause. Even the movement of subatomic particles is subject to God's sovereignty. In this context nothing is coincidental; everything is an event occurring at a prescribed moment in time. In this sense anything could be taken as a sign, everything could be sign, it is how in tune we are with our environment, the wider creation, the unseen world, and of course submission to the sovereignty of God, which will decide whether we see nothing, or we are able to decipher the signs that surround us.
As we would say in this context ‘Allah is the True Reality’....Allah Al Haqq.
In this context, i.e. everything being under the sovereignty of God, nothing that occurs is without original cause. Even the movement of subatomic particles is subject to God's sovereignty. In this context nothing is coincidental; everything is an event occurring at a prescribed moment in time. In this sense anything could be taken as a sign, everything could be sign, it is how in tune we are with our environment, the wider creation, the unseen world, and of course submission to the sovereignty of God, which will decide whether we see nothing, or we are able to decipher the signs that surround us.
As we would say in this context ‘Allah is the True Reality’....Allah Al Haqq.
I agree with most of the sentiment above. However you are talking about a different subject than True and direct revelation and communication between Allah and individuals. A “drug high” is NOT the same as revelation and has nothing to do with revelation. All men, including Atheists, may experience what you are talking about. I'm sure you are not meaning to equate Muslim inspiration to a near schizophrenic, drug induced state or halucinations.
I was asking about REVELATION between God and men. It is different.
If, however, you wish to speak about REVELATION from God. The question becomes:
Is there ANY reason to believe that Muslims believe in direct revelation; direct communication; either audible or inaudible voice; or vision to our eyes or minds; or specific thoughts placed directly by Allah or his spirit into the heart and mind of Muslims in the same manner that it happened to all Prophets of Allah, or to the Jews and Christians?
Clear
(I’ll be in and out today as I prepare to leave...)
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Nehustan
Well-Known Member
I was quite specific in spelling out what I meant. I included the part about intoxicants as they, along with more holistic approaches, allow an insight into an unseen world. I'm not proposing that that is a good way to see the unseen world. Any Buddhist on this forum can attest to having insight, or inspiration. Countless artists i.e. Blake, Milton, Byron, Shelley wrote of such inspiration though the sources of their ASC were diverse.
However the experience of other worlds is a common reported experience, whether it be from Siberian Shaman, to their Amazonian counterparts, to Sufis lost in trance like remembrance of Allah, and perhaps even including the psychotic telling a psychiatrist, usually in an ineloquent manner (we can discuss epidemiology and demographics in regard to psychoses if you like), the way he sees the world and the meaning he ascribes to it.
You can 'poo poo' the experiences of people who report such ASCs, however as I pointed out they do feature in Islamic thought, whether that be as reported by Sufis, or the Islamic perspective upon the insane as 'Holy Fools'. Islam believes that should such states be experienced for prolonged periods, either through intoxicant, food and sleep deprivation, trance induced dance, prayer, reflection and/or meditation, the individual will take on the appearance of a madman. Indeed some critics of Sufis propose that they neglect the mundane, such as supporting themselves, having families, pursuing careers, etcetera.
The point I was trying to make was that in regard to inspiration, and the presence of signs, they are around man constantly if he chooses to see them. But as the mystic Al Ghazali delineated about Honey, even it, if abused, is no good for the system.
And so it is with Islam, significance of an event is really relevant to the recipient and perhaps the recipient alone. Muslims would experience this as the subtle synchronicities I alluded to on more than one occasion. I'm not claiming for one instant that only Muslims experience such phenomena, I was trying to present you with the framework within which Muslims make sense of such events, how they come to have meaning, their perception of ontology, and how they figure within the greater cosmology of Islamic thought.
However the experience of other worlds is a common reported experience, whether it be from Siberian Shaman, to their Amazonian counterparts, to Sufis lost in trance like remembrance of Allah, and perhaps even including the psychotic telling a psychiatrist, usually in an ineloquent manner (we can discuss epidemiology and demographics in regard to psychoses if you like), the way he sees the world and the meaning he ascribes to it.
You can 'poo poo' the experiences of people who report such ASCs, however as I pointed out they do feature in Islamic thought, whether that be as reported by Sufis, or the Islamic perspective upon the insane as 'Holy Fools'. Islam believes that should such states be experienced for prolonged periods, either through intoxicant, food and sleep deprivation, trance induced dance, prayer, reflection and/or meditation, the individual will take on the appearance of a madman. Indeed some critics of Sufis propose that they neglect the mundane, such as supporting themselves, having families, pursuing careers, etcetera.
The point I was trying to make was that in regard to inspiration, and the presence of signs, they are around man constantly if he chooses to see them. But as the mystic Al Ghazali delineated about Honey, even it, if abused, is no good for the system.
And so it is with Islam, significance of an event is really relevant to the recipient and perhaps the recipient alone. Muslims would experience this as the subtle synchronicities I alluded to on more than one occasion. I'm not claiming for one instant that only Muslims experience such phenomena, I was trying to present you with the framework within which Muslims make sense of such events, how they come to have meaning, their perception of ontology, and how they figure within the greater cosmology of Islamic thought.
Indirect revelation, yes, but a direct revelation by Allah like what prophet Mohammed experienced, a big NO.
You got now why i said NO then tiny yes as you described it.
Well, Islam is strict about this issue because anyone would claim to be prophet, etc claiming to get a direct revelation. Direct reveleation stopped when prophet Mohammed passed away, period.
Nehustan;
I am asking about direct revelation, you keep answering about "signs". These are not the same thing. If I ask about apples and you give a discourse about oranges, don't expect me to feel like that answers the question I asked. You could have simply answered as TashaN did.
Regarding direct revelation and whether Allah gives direct revelation to Allah, her answer was:
I'm walking out the door, see you in 3 days.
Clear.
Indirect revelation, yes, but a direct revelation by Allah like what prophet Mohammed experienced, a big NO.
I am asking about direct revelation, you keep answering about "signs". These are not the same thing. If I ask about apples and you give a discourse about oranges, don't expect me to feel like that answers the question I asked. You could have simply answered as TashaN did.
Regarding direct revelation and whether Allah gives direct revelation to Allah, her answer was:
I'm walking out the door, see you in 3 days.
Clear.
Indirect revelation, yes, but a direct revelation by Allah like what prophet Mohammed experienced, a big NO.
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
Well obviously not to you, but you're missing the point. What you call direct inspiration (actually it was via the 'intelligence' who identified himself as Gabriel) in the case of Muhammad were the 'ayats' of the Quran, not a coincidental appellation. The very name (see if you can get this this time) means 'sign'. The revelation to Muhammad (via Gabriel) repeats several themes; one of the most prominent being that God says he reveals himself to man via signs. The signs in the revealed book i.e. the Quran, in the Universe (Macrocosm), i.e. synchronistic events and/or phenomena, and within man himself (microcosm), i.e. psychological insight. These are so myriad in nature that to delineate specifics would be a mammoth task.
Its not so much that I'm being elusive, as you seem to be talking about something in a roundabout way. If you've had an experience you'd like to share and would like to know what Islam would advise on the specific, then it would be a whole lot easier if you said "Is 'a', 'b', or 'c' considered a revelation in Islam?"
When the physical structure of DNA was revealed via a dream of the caduceus, I'd say that that was revelation through symbol and/or sign. To me that is revelatory. The life of Joseph includes multiple interpretations of sign within dream, but not all symbolic content needs to be during sleep, it can occur for the awoken also.
I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose?
Nehustan
Well-Known Member
To be honest mate I'm finding it quite hard. I feel I speak in fairly straightforward English. I actually contacted a non-Muslim close friend last night and asked him to read the thread and see if it was unclear. His reply was 'it's perfectly clear', the only solution he put forward for 'Clear's' position was that he was on the wind up. To be honest I can't fathom it. I'm hoping 'Clear' turns out to have English as a second language, if he's a Brit (or Australian, New Zealander, American or Canadian) it will be very strange :help:
Nehustan -
1) Perhaps I deserve the subtle satire, I’ll let the forum members judge for themselves. However, no matter where the blame lies, I sincerely apologize for my share of any misunderstanding.
2) I had thought TashaN answered the question that Muslims did NOT believe that Allah gives modern Muslims direct revelation in the same manner as Mohammed (pbuh) received revelation and just as the Jews and Christians.
I would be interested to know if TashaN would allow that Allah gives direct revelation to men in this manner.
3) ”..it would be a whole lot easier if you said "Is 'a', 'b', or 'c' considered a revelation in Islam?" - Nehustan
I think this is a wonderful idea Nehustan. Let’s try it.
If Mohammed (pbuh) had thoughts placed directly into his mind and heart by Allah, then this is DIRECT communication or revelation from Allah. If Mohammed tells about or writes the revelation for others to hear or read, it is not DIRECT revelation to them, but is INDIRECT and it is a second hand account of the event. If the Sura’s of the Quran were initially thoughts, placed directly into Mohammeds Heart and Mind, then this was a DIRECT revelation from Allah. When you and I read the Quran, we are NOT receiving direct revelation as Mohammed (pbuh) did, we are reading a description of what Mohammed (pbuh) was given.
If an angel appears to Mohammed (pbuh) with a message from Allah. This is a form of DIRECT communication from Allah to Mohammed. If he relates or writes the story for another to hear or read, this is not DIRECT revelation to them, but it is INDIRECT and a second hand account of the event.
Your DNA example sounds as though you DO believe that Muslims receive revelation in the same manner as Mohammed (pbuh) (i.e. direct revelation).
So, If tomorrow, you have a vision that has profound spiritual meaning, or hear a voice directing you to make a decision, or have a scientific dream (similar to your DNA example), or if an angel appears to you with an important message, will you then, as a Muslim, be able to believe you have received a revelation in the same manner as the prophets, jews and christians?
Do OTHER Muslims generally believe in direct revelation from Allah to them, as you do? (TashaN’s comments notwithstanding...)
Neustan, I am concerned that you might be feeling frustrated. This is not my intent. I am sorry if this line of questioning is bothersome. Would you like to quit for a while?
Clear
1) Perhaps I deserve the subtle satire, I’ll let the forum members judge for themselves. However, no matter where the blame lies, I sincerely apologize for my share of any misunderstanding.
2) I had thought TashaN answered the question that Muslims did NOT believe that Allah gives modern Muslims direct revelation in the same manner as Mohammed (pbuh) received revelation and just as the Jews and Christians.
However, regarding, your example of DNA structure being revealed by Allah in a dream: If you believe that Allah does give revelation by angels or as voices or visions or dreams or thoughts placed directly into the hearts and minds of men in the manner of Mohammed, or the jews or the christians, then this IS, indeed direct revelation (though one need not claim "prophethood", but simply that Allah had given them direct revelation).
I would be interested to know if TashaN would allow that Allah gives direct revelation to men in this manner.
3) ”..it would be a whole lot easier if you said "Is 'a', 'b', or 'c' considered a revelation in Islam?" - Nehustan
I think this is a wonderful idea Nehustan. Let’s try it.
If Mohammed (pbuh) had thoughts placed directly into his mind and heart by Allah, then this is DIRECT communication or revelation from Allah. If Mohammed tells about or writes the revelation for others to hear or read, it is not DIRECT revelation to them, but is INDIRECT and it is a second hand account of the event. If the Sura’s of the Quran were initially thoughts, placed directly into Mohammeds Heart and Mind, then this was a DIRECT revelation from Allah. When you and I read the Quran, we are NOT receiving direct revelation as Mohammed (pbuh) did, we are reading a description of what Mohammed (pbuh) was given.
If an angel appears to Mohammed (pbuh) with a message from Allah. This is a form of DIRECT communication from Allah to Mohammed. If he relates or writes the story for another to hear or read, this is not DIRECT revelation to them, but it is INDIRECT and a second hand account of the event.
Your DNA example sounds as though you DO believe that Muslims receive revelation in the same manner as Mohammed (pbuh) (i.e. direct revelation).
So, If tomorrow, you have a vision that has profound spiritual meaning, or hear a voice directing you to make a decision, or have a scientific dream (similar to your DNA example), or if an angel appears to you with an important message, will you then, as a Muslim, be able to believe you have received a revelation in the same manner as the prophets, jews and christians?
Do OTHER Muslims generally believe in direct revelation from Allah to them, as you do? (TashaN’s comments notwithstanding...)
Neustan, I am concerned that you might be feeling frustrated. This is not my intent. I am sorry if this line of questioning is bothersome. Would you like to quit for a while?
Clear
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Nehustan and TashaN
If I understand correctly, TashaN does NOT believe that allah gives direct revelation to Muslims nowadays in the manner that was given to Mohammed and to the Jews and Christians. It seems as though Nehustan believes that Allah DOES give direct revelation to Muslims in this manner (though we’ll have to wait to see for confirmation from Nehustan).
In the meantime, may I summarize prior principles which, (if I understand them correctly from my Christian bias), we are in absolute agreement as being principles of truth
In post #6, Nehustan posted the following quote:
Again in post #6 Neustan posted another quote:
In post #14 Nehustan offered a profound principle underlying Allah’s interaction with all mankind of all religions:
In post #28 TashaN speaks regarding revelation from Allah in saying “
This principle is difficult for agnostics to use since it ultimately requires a degree of commitment and faith that they are very often, reluctant to invest.
As a Christian, I believe all of these principles. I hope this summary will allow TashaN and Nehustan to understand that the frustration of difficult discussion has resulted in some important progress and understanding. I very much appreciate your time and efforts and difficult deliberations in how to answer difficult questions.
Nehustan - I know that you cannot know how your words might be construed, or possibly “abused” by someone who simply wants to dishonor Islam or “lay a trap” for you in trying to misconstrue what you are saying. That is NOT my intent.
IF you say that you believe Muslims DO receive revelation directly from Allah, I will VERY MUCH agree with you. I believe that ALL mankind receive revelations that are intended to play “a benevolent role in trying to ascend man toward his higher nature” (as you put it). I do not believe that all individuals have revelations that are intended to direct nations or large groups of people (as is the nature of much of the revelation Allah gives to prophets) but that they all receive "bits" and "pieces" of truth through direct revelation and many other mechanisms (including the natural order and design of creation - which you included as "signs").
We may (will) come to some disagreement regarding aspects of revelation, but I do NOT intend to dishonor you, nor your beliefs, nor will I intentionally belittle you. I am very sorry if I might have said anything that was inconsistent with this public commitment to you.
Clear
If I understand correctly, TashaN does NOT believe that allah gives direct revelation to Muslims nowadays in the manner that was given to Mohammed and to the Jews and Christians. It seems as though Nehustan believes that Allah DOES give direct revelation to Muslims in this manner (though we’ll have to wait to see for confirmation from Nehustan).
In the meantime, may I summarize prior principles which, (if I understand them correctly from my Christian bias), we are in absolute agreement as being principles of truth
In post #6, Nehustan posted the following quote:
I believe this is an absolutely correct principle, though I might not interpret it the same as others. I think the sense and meaning is not “substituting” one revelation for another, but rather this refers to the principle of Allah or God “adding” more revelation to what has already been given. The concept of revelations given “in stages” is not only correct, but is necessary since mankind are not able to understand knowledge as fast as or as much as Allah is able to dispense. This principle is very consistent with my beliefs as a Christian.
Again in post #6 Neustan posted another quote:
I believe that this principle relates to the above quote and is a true principle in Christianity as it is for Muslims for the reasons I’ve mentioned above.
In post #14 Nehustan offered a profound principle underlying Allah’s interaction with all mankind of all religions:
The concept of “trying to ascend man toward his higher nature” is not merely a profound thought, but, I think, is an accurate description of Allah's (God's) “plan” for mankind from the very beginning of creation. This is what I was also taught as a Christian and is in agreement with my own sentiments.
In post #28 TashaN speaks regarding revelation from Allah in saying “
I think TashaN is absolutely correct that Allah is bound to give us knowledge and wisdom when we obey the principles upon which knowledge and wisdom is based. It is as predictable as a simple mathematical equation. Just as adding 2 and 2 will ALWAYS equal 4, following principles upon which spiritual knowledge and progress is acquired ALWAYS results in greater knowledge, understanding, and spiritual progress.
This principle is difficult for agnostics to use since it ultimately requires a degree of commitment and faith that they are very often, reluctant to invest.
As a Christian, I believe all of these principles. I hope this summary will allow TashaN and Nehustan to understand that the frustration of difficult discussion has resulted in some important progress and understanding. I very much appreciate your time and efforts and difficult deliberations in how to answer difficult questions.
Nehustan - I know that you cannot know how your words might be construed, or possibly “abused” by someone who simply wants to dishonor Islam or “lay a trap” for you in trying to misconstrue what you are saying. That is NOT my intent.
IF you say that you believe Muslims DO receive revelation directly from Allah, I will VERY MUCH agree with you. I believe that ALL mankind receive revelations that are intended to play “a benevolent role in trying to ascend man toward his higher nature” (as you put it). I do not believe that all individuals have revelations that are intended to direct nations or large groups of people (as is the nature of much of the revelation Allah gives to prophets) but that they all receive "bits" and "pieces" of truth through direct revelation and many other mechanisms (including the natural order and design of creation - which you included as "signs").
We may (will) come to some disagreement regarding aspects of revelation, but I do NOT intend to dishonor you, nor your beliefs, nor will I intentionally belittle you. I am very sorry if I might have said anything that was inconsistent with this public commitment to you.
Clear
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