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The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I reply Jesus spoke Aramaic NOT Greek!
I didn't say anything different, so you either misread or misunderstand what I actually wrote. The NT was written in Koine Greek undoubtedly to spread the Word throughout the diaspora around the Mediterranean region. Greek was the language of scholars, whereas both Aramaic and Hebrew had a very limited circulation within the Gentile community.

Your excuse/explanation does NOT hold water you twisted the logic! Cephas means ROCK! Cephas means PETER not Petros! Peter means ROCK!
"Cephas" [or "kephas] is Aramaic, and it means "rock". However, when translated into the Greek, rock becomes "petros" (larger rock) or "petras" (smaller rock). When the Greek was eventually translated into English, his name went from "Cephas" to "Peter" through the name change Jesus made for him.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I didn't say anything different, so you either misread or misunderstand what I actually wrote. The NT was written in Koine Greek undoubtedly to spread the Word throughout the diaspora around the Mediterranean region. Greek was the language of scholars, whereas both Aramaic and Hebrew had a very limited circulation within the Gentile community.

"Cephas" [or "kephas] is Aramaic, and it means "rock". However, when translated into the Greek, rock becomes "petros" (larger rock) or "petras" (smaller rock). When the Greek was eventually translated into English, his name went from "Cephas" to "Peter" through the name change Jesus made for him.
metis I hope all is well... I reply... Yes your post is informative & correct... Many try to downplay the name of Peter by pointing to Greek "small rock" or "pebble"! The Aramaic Jesus spoke puts the idea to rest! Jesus called Peter "ROCK"! Jesus named Peter "ROCK"! Jesus built his church on ROCK on Peter's confession! God the father from heaven personally kept Peter from error! Jesus gave Peter the Keys of heaven keys with the AUTHORITY of God!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
ah, so your going with Peter ?
It clear that it is a play on words as we see with Jesus' response as to "Whom do people say I am?", thus equating "rock" with both faith and "Peter".

Throughout the NT, Peter has a special designation. When numerous apostles are listed, Peter's name is almost always given first. To Peter, Jesus said "Feed my sheep...". Paul talks about conferring with Peter on a couple of issues. Etc.

Peter was basically viewed as the spiritual head of the Church after Jesus was crucified, whereas James was the administrative head and Judas the treasurer. IOW, different roles were assigned, and this continued on with appointments by the apostles.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
It clear that it is a play on words as we see with Jesus' response as to "Whom do people say I am?", thus equating "rock" with both faith and "Peter".

Throughout the NT, Peter has a special designation. When numerous apostles are listed, Peter's name is almost always given first. To Peter, Jesus said "Feed my sheep...". Paul talks about conferring with Peter on a couple of issues. Etc.

Peter was basically viewed as the spiritual head of the Church after Jesus was crucified, whereas James was the administrative head and Judas the treasurer. IOW, different roles were assigned, and this continued on with appointments by the apostles.
:)
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Can you show me a time in biblical history where God tolerated any divisions among his worshippers?
I wasn't talking about divisions to begin with.
Most of them don't.
you were talking about the churches, Deeje: you wrote:
Since Jesus said that he would be "with" his disciples in this work, can you tell me why the churches do not engage in it?
That's why I told you that many churches do share the Gospel, as opposed to what you think they do.
I have spent the last 45 years studying the Bible...if I don't know what Christ taught by now, I never will.
that wasn't the point.
I said, you didn't study all of the churches beyond the JW circle. Yet you claim to know how they are like, making condescending remarks in a generalized manner.

I didn't confuse confidence with arrogance.
I suggest you concentrate on your own salvation
I wasn't talking about me and my salvation to begin with. Please stop taking it to the personal level. This thread is not about me personally.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I wasn't talking about divisions to begin with.
I was highlighting the many divisions there are in Christendom.

you were talking about the churches, Deeje: you wrote:
That's why I told you that many churches do share the Gospel, as opposed to what you think they do.

Please tell me what you consider the "gospel" to be. What was Jesus' message about the Kingdom of God that was "good news"?

When was the last time a member of any church called at your door with "the good news of God's Kingdom"? For me, the answer is....never. If I ask church goers what God's kingdom is, they usually stare at me blankly as if the subject had never come up in their conversations...yet most of Christendom's churches pray the Lord's Prayer every week with out actually knowing what they are supposed to be praying for. You think that's good enough?
Maybe Jesus doesn't. :shrug:

I said, you didn't study all of the churches beyond the JW circle. Yet you claim to know how they are like, making condescending remarks in a generalized manner.

You know this....how? o_O
Would it surprise you to know that I checked out many other denominations after I left the church I was raised in? I wondered why I bothered as they all taught basically the same rubbish that I had rejected. I did this long before I even met Jehovah's Witnesses. I studied the Bible with them for two solid years, analyzing everything I was taught to make sure it was aligned with the scriptures. Only then was I was ready to dedicate my life to God and do what Jesus commanded. It was good to be among those who didn't make excuses for their failures and rely on 'Grace' (whatever they imagine that is) to cover their disobedient backsides.

Sorry, but I don't have a very high opinion of the churches because I have firsthand experience of the kind of Christianity they practice......I was one of them.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
Please tell me what you consider the "gospel" to be.
that you can be saved. But this is not the topic in our discussion we're having right now, please. Don't try to divert from the subject at hand please. Even if you are going to find out that I get that wrong... this doesn't mean that it is shown that all churches fail to share the gospel.
When was the last time a member of any church called at your door with "the good news of God's Kingdom"?
There are all sorts of activities how you can share the Gospel: on facebook, talking to friends, events and so on...
Knocking on other people's doors is not the one and only way to share the truth.
Here in Germany, if unknown people knock doors it's usually that they want to sell your personal contact information and you get spammed as a punishment afterwards.
So that's why Christians don't knock doors anymore here. They want a pleasant atmosphere.
Would it surprise you to know that I checked out many other denominations
you made a condescending comment concerning all the churches. However, knowing many denominations doesn't meand that you know all churches.
So you have nothing to back up your claim about all churches.
You don't know all the house churches that exist in the world, for instance.
For me, the answer is....never [did a member of any church knock my door].
that doesn't mean that all churches refrain from sharing the gospel, Deeje.
You are making a generic statement about... (see the quote)
the churches
... pretending you know they are all the same. You're lumping them all together, but you have no reason to do so.

Sorry, but
A "sorry but" is not a sorry. It's a device for rhetorics.

cover their disobedient backsides.
that's JW talk, I guess? The churches I went to don't talk about "disobedient backsides" meaning they could very well do with a bit of spanking.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
that you can be saved. But this is not the topic in our discussion we're having right now, please. Don't try to divert from the subject at hand please. Even if you are going to find out that I get that wrong... this doesn't mean that it is shown that all churches fail to share the gospel.

If you don’t know what the “good news” is, how do you preach it?
As I showed you, Jesus commanded the preaching be done and in every nation. That means one message, one truth and one set of beliefs for all. That is what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:10...

“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

How on earth can you squeeze literally thousands of disunited “Christian” churches into that statement? It would require a lot of tap dancing....and flat out lying.

There are all sorts of activities how you can share the Gospel: on facebook, talking to friends, events and so on...
Knocking on other people's doors is not the one and only way to share the truth.

And we use them all. But “finding” people requires a method that doesn’t leave any missed out. When a natural disaster is pending, do emergency services just rely on media to get their message out to those in harm’s way? Where I live, they go door to door. The Christian message is life saving.....it has to be offered to all....but it can't be forced. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)
For the positive responders, it means life, but to those who refuse the message it means death.....
fighting0080.gif


2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones..."

There are only two kinds of people who need to fear "the end" (everlasting destruction)....those who don't 'know God' because they don't want to....and those who know him, or know about him, but who fail to 'obey' Christ's teachings.

Here in Germany, if unknown people knock doors it's usually that they want to sell your personal contact information and you get spammed as a punishment afterwards.
So that's why Christians don't knock doors anymore here. They want a pleasant atmosphere.

Christianity knows no nationality. The covid situation has forced many changes in the way the good news is preached, but it is still getting out there by whatever means are still available, in all nations.

you made a condescending comment concerning all the churches. However, knowing many denominations doesn't meand that you know all churches.
So you have nothing to back up your claim about all churches.
You don't know all the house churches that exist in the world, for instance.

that doesn't mean that all churches refrain from sharing the gospel, Deeje.
You are making a generic statement about... (see the quote)

I'm afraid you are missing the point entirely.....there is only one 'church'...there are not many branches of that church who are all teaching different things. If there is disunity it is a clear indicator that they are not following Christ's teachings...they are following man's teachings.

... pretending you know they are all the same. You're lumping them all together, but you have no reason to do so.

If you are familiar with Jesus' parable of the "wheat and the weeds" you will know that he foretold that the devil would sow counterfeit Christianity in the world right alongside the genuine Christians, "while men were sleeping". They were not 'awake' to the activity of the devil in planting seeds of a "look alike".
The "weeds" in his parable are thought to be a plant called "Bearded Darnel"...in the Middle East it is called "wheat's evil twin" because it looks just like wheat in the growing stages. but it is poisonous. Only at the harvest time can the two be clearly identified and separated, which makes Jesus' parable easy to understand. It is harvest time now. The two do not resemble one another at all. (Matthew 13:24-30)

Do you know how to spot counterfeit money? Experts do not have to study every counterfeit bank note to check if it's genuine......all they have to do is KNOW what the real one looks like, and the flaws will be clearly visible to the trained eye.

People have not been raised to know what genuine Christianity is, its been corrupted for so long that the 'weeds' look like the 'wheat' to them.

A "sorry but" is not a sorry. It's a device for rhetorics.

"I'm sorry but" is an allusion to someones misguided mistake.....you are sorry to inform them of that mistake because you can see their sincerity. Believing something does not make it true, but it is my belief that God is the one who guides people to his truth, taught by his son. (John 6:44; 65)

that's JW talk, I guess? The churches I went to don't talk about "disobedient backsides" meaning they could very well do with a bit of spanking.

Its the many ways that they disguise what they believe by weaving a false idea into scripture....or adopting something from paganism and dressing it up to appear to be "Christian". Would you like to discuss some of those things?

It won't be us who does the spanking
fighting0056.gif
....we are just the messengers.
confused0012.gif
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If you don’t know what the “good news” is, how do you preach it?
As I showed you, Jesus commanded the preaching be done and in every nation. That means one message, one truth and one set of beliefs for all. That is what Paul said at 1 Corinthians 1:10...

“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

How on earth can you squeeze literally thousands of disunited “Christian” churches into that statement? It would require a lot of tap dancing....and flat out lying.



And we use them all. But “finding” people requires a method that doesn’t leave any missed out. When a natural disaster is pending, do emergency services just rely on media to get their message out to those in harm’s way? Where I live, they go door to door. The Christian message is life saving.....it has to be offered to all....but it can't be forced. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)
For the positive responders, it means life, but to those who refuse the message it means death.....
fighting0080.gif


2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones..."

There are only two kinds of people who need to fear "the end" (everlasting destruction)....those who don't 'know God' because they don't want to....and those who know him, or know about him, but who fail to 'obey' Christ's teachings.



Christianity knows no nationality. The covid situation has forced many changes in the way the good news is preached, but it is still getting out there by whatever means are still available, in all nations.



I'm afraid you are missing the point entirely.....there is only one 'church'...there are not many branches of that church who are all teaching different things. If there is disunity it is a clear indicator that they are not following Christ's teachings...they are following man's teachings.



If you are familiar with Jesus' parable of the "wheat and the weeds" you will know that he foretold that the devil would sow counterfeit Christianity in the world right alongside the genuine Christians, "while men were sleeping". They were not 'awake' to the activity of the devil in planting seeds of a "look alike".
The "weeds" in his parable are thought to be a plant called "Bearded Darnel"...in the Middle East it is called "wheat's evil twin" because it looks just like wheat in the growing stages. but it is poisonous. Only at the harvest time can the two be clearly identified and separated, which makes Jesus' parable easy to understand. It is harvest time now. The two do not resemble one another at all. (Matthew 13:24-30)

Do you know how to spot counterfeit money? Experts do not have to study every counterfeit bank note to check if it's genuine......all they have to do is KNOW what the real one looks like, and the flaws will be clearly visible to the trained eye.

People have not been raised to know what genuine Christianity is, its been corrupted for so long that the 'weeds' look like the 'wheat' to them.



"I'm sorry but" is an allusion to someones misguided mistake.....you are sorry to inform them of that mistake because you can see their sincerity. Believing something does not make it true, but it is my belief that God is the one who guides people to his truth, taught by his son. (John 6:44; 65)



Its the many ways that they disguise what they believe by weaving a false idea into scripture....or adopting something from paganism and dressing it up to appear to be "Christian". Would you like to discuss some of those things?

It won't be us who does the spanking
fighting0056.gif
....we are just the messengers.
confused0012.gif
Oh my goodness, lol!! What emoji's you use, Deeje! Cracks me up!
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
If you don’t know what the “good news” is, how do you preach it?
Again, this thread is not about what I personally know as a Christian.
Look at the title! Don't divert from the subject of our sub-conversation.
“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

How on earth can you squeeze literally thousands of disunited “Christian” churches into that statement? It would require a lot of tap dancing....and flat out lying.
Even if the goal of having no divisions can't be reached sometimes... its still possible to preach. Peter and Paul have had a division, too. Galatians 2:12.
You can't prove by scripture that they couldn't preach while they had that division. Your point is moot.
there is only one 'church'.
you came up talking about the churches (plural).
Christianity knows no nationality.
I didn't claim otherwise.
I also didn't claim that there are no divisions.
For the positive responders, it means life, but to those who refuse the message it means death.....
fighting0080.gif
don't pretend to be able to show that the gospel isn't preached outside your JW circle. You can't substanciate that by anything. Again: a division can't disable preaching.
I wouldn't trust an organization prone to dealing with false prophecies from within their own ranks, thank you @Dogknox20 for mentioning that in this thread. If they can't get their prophecies straight why trust in them anyway.

"I'm sorry but" is an allusion to someones misguided mistake.....you are sorry to inform them of that mistake because you can see their sincerity. Believing something does not make it true, but it is my belief that God is the one who guides people to his truth, taught by his son. (John 6:44; 65)
so "sorry but" means you're insinuating I made a mistake. That was hard to figure out. Good to know.
In my opinion, I didn't make the mistake of having a wrong impression of the churches, though...
It won't be us who does the spanking
fighting0056.gif
....we are just the messengers.
This is spanking talk.

EDITED for clarity and grammar
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
cataway... Hello once again... You quote scriptures as it they are written to you! FACT: The bible is a book of the Catholic Church she made it! "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you rejects me"!
cataway.. "Listen to the Church or be treated as a Pagan"! A pagan is someone outside of God' family! QUESTION: Do you listen or do you reject her!? The ONLY Church Jesus formed is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church!
Dogknox20..QUESTION: Would you kill your Catholic brothers and sisters from another country, if your native country told you to?
Just curious, because “The ONLY Church” you espouse so much, has an infamous reputation of supporting that.

In fact, American Catholics in WWII were killing German and Italian Catholics, and vice versa.
What side was God on?

If the Papacy was supporting Hitler (through its concordat Reichskonkordat - Wikipedia), how come Germany didn’t win?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If the Papacy was supporting Hitler (through its concordat Reichskonkordat - Wikipedia), how come Germany didn’t win?
It didn't support Hitler or the NAZI's, so you are misrepresenting what the agreement was about and why the Vatican was willing to sign it. Maybe reread your own link.

The Church uses the "Just-War Theory" as its guide on this, and WWII on either side did not fit into that paradigm.
 
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Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Dogknox20..QUESTION: Would you kill your Catholic brothers and sisters from another country, if your native country told you to?
Just curious, because “The ONLY Church” you espouse so much, has an infamous reputation of supporting that.

In fact, American Catholics in WWII were killing German and Italian Catholics, and vice versa.
What side was God on?

If the Papacy was supporting Hitler (through its concordat Reichskonkordat - Wikipedia), how come Germany didn’t win?
Hockeycowboy Good question... I reply you are mixed up.... Fighting for right and the good is what all men are suppose to do! We have always had wars going back into the Old Testament there were wars! Sitting back as an objector to war refusing to fight for family or the innocent is Hypocritical these objectors living in a free society that was won by the blood of good people defending truth and freedom & all that is good then saying "I will not fight" is very close to being a sin! If these objectors were to live in North Korea or China they would not have religious freedom to practice their faith!
Hockeycowboy It is a sin to MURDER! It is a sin to KILL children and the innocent! It is NOT a sin to fight for what is right to fight and protect the innocent and family! The crusades is a good example Muslims were pouring into Spain killing, raping & obduction into slavery teaching there religion under threat of death. They were driven back; Spain is a Christian country today because of the blood of these Christian men!
To refuse blood transfusion for a child thus killing the child is called MURDER in my book! No scriptures say.. Do not transfuse blood! To say scriptures do say "Do NOT transfuse blood" is reading into God' holy word what is not there! It is twisting and massaging the scriptures until killing a innocent child become not a sin but a grace coming from God! Clearly Satan has his evil hand is this teaching!
I read.. "Do not eat blood" in my bible!

Hockeycowboy you have fallen for a lie.... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus founded on ROCK not on Sand did not support Hitler!
Up to January 30, 1933, the German Bishops had put the sentence of excommunication upon anyone belonging to the Nazi party. This excommunication was lifted as soon as Hitler came to power. The Church was clearly concerned to protect the rights of Catholics in Nazi Germany. This is why Pope Pius XI made a contract with Hitler. When the pope was criticized for signing this concordat, he is supposed to have said “I would sign a contract with the devil himself, if thereby I could help save a single immortal soul.

The twentieth century has been marked by genocides on an monstrous scale. One of the most terrible was the Holocaust wrought by Nazi Germany, which killed an estimated six million European Jews and almost as many other victims.

During this dark time, the Catholic Church was shepherded by Pope Pius XII, who proved himself an untiring foe of the Nazis, determined to save as many Jewish lives as he could. Yet today Pius XII gets almost no credit for his actions before or during the war.

Anti-Catholic author Dave Hunt writes, “The Vatican had no excuse for its Nazi partnership or for its continued commendation of Hitler on the one hand and its thunderous silence regarding the Jewish question on the other hand. . . . [The popes] continued in the alliance with Hitler until the end of the war, reaping hundreds of millions of dollars in payments from the Nazi government to the Vatican.”
FACT IS: Early in 1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. He sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following his predecessor’s policies. “Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Führer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope’s position was clearly unshakable.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Dogknox20 , @metis , thank you for your replies.
Justification for killing was what I expected.
So much for loving one's enemies, eh? Matthew 5:44
Or being "not of the world." John 15:19
(It's hard to imagine actions that would make a group more a part of the world, than partaking in it's wars!)

-- James 4:4
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
@Dogknox20 , @metis , thank you for your replies.
Justification for killing was what I expected.
So much for loving one's enemies, eh? Matthew 5:44
Or being "not of the world." John 15:19
(It's hard to imagine actions that would make a group more a part of the world, than partaking in it's wars!)

-- James 4:4
One can only take your JW position if one ignores the Torah mandate to protect the innocent, including the use of force at last resort. So, if you take the position that Jesus refuted Torah, then you have a major problem of basically calling Jesus a "false prophet". To defend the widows and the innocent is mandated by Torah, thus they are not to be left to be slaughtered if it can be prevented. The "Just-War Theory" says force can be for defensive purposes only, and even then it is highly restricted. Unfortunately, all too many leaders of countries didn't abide by it.

The statements by Jesus on this tend to reflect the situation at the time and circumstances when Jesus lived, whereas the Church was not represented in the Roman government nor the Great Sanhedrin. IOW, it had no power of enforcement to protect the innocent, which is why I think that Jesus was actually countering the arguments made by the Zealots' use of deadly force that had no chance of succeeding and was causing more harm than good.
 

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Hockeycowboy Good question... I reply you are mixed up.... Fighting for right and the good is what all men are suppose to do! We have always had wars going back into the Old Testament there were wars! Sitting back as an objector to war refusing to fight for family or the innocent is Hypocritical these objectors living in a free society that was won by the blood of good people defending truth and freedom & all that is good then saying "I will not fight" is very close to being a sin! If these objectors were to live in North Korea or China they would not have religious freedom to practice their faith!
Hockeycowboy It is a sin to MURDER! It is a sin to KILL children and the innocent! It is NOT a sin to fight for what is right to fight and protect the innocent and family! The crusades is a good example Muslims were pouring into Spain killing, raping & obduction into slavery teaching there religion under threat of death. They were driven back; Spain is a Christian country today because of the blood of these Christian men!
To refuse blood transfusion for a child thus killing the child is called MURDER in my book! No scriptures say.. Do not transfuse blood! To say scriptures do say "Do NOT transfuse blood" is reading into God' holy word what is not there! It is twisting and massaging the scriptures until killing a innocent child become not a sin but a grace coming from God! Clearly Satan has his evil hand is this teaching!
I read.. "Do not eat blood" in my bible!

Hockeycowboy you have fallen for a lie.... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus founded on ROCK not on Sand did not support Hitler!
Up to January 30, 1933, the German Bishops had put the sentence of excommunication upon anyone belonging to the Nazi party. This excommunication was lifted as soon as Hitler came to power. The Church was clearly concerned to protect the rights of Catholics in Nazi Germany. This is why Pope Pius XI made a contract with Hitler. When the pope was criticized for signing this concordat, he is supposed to have said “I would sign a contract with the devil himself, if thereby I could help save a single immortal soul.

The twentieth century has been marked by genocides on an monstrous scale. One of the most terrible was the Holocaust wrought by Nazi Germany, which killed an estimated six million European Jews and almost as many other victims.

During this dark time, the Catholic Church was shepherded by Pope Pius XII, who proved himself an untiring foe of the Nazis, determined to save as many Jewish lives as he could. Yet today Pius XII gets almost no credit for his actions before or during the war.

Anti-Catholic author Dave Hunt writes, “The Vatican had no excuse for its Nazi partnership or for its continued commendation of Hitler on the one hand and its thunderous silence regarding the Jewish question on the other hand. . . . [The popes] continued in the alliance with Hitler until the end of the war, reaping hundreds of millions of dollars in payments from the Nazi government to the Vatican.”
FACT IS: Early in 1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. He sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following his predecessor’s policies. “Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Führer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope’s position was clearly unshakable.
Rev 18: 2 “And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a place where every unclean spirit and every unclean and hated bird lurks!”

Rev 18:9 “And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning. 10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

11 “Also, the merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning over her, because there is no one to buy their full cargo anymore, 12 a full cargo of gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, and scarlet cloth; and everything made from scented wood; and every sort of object made from ivory, and from precious wood, copper, iron, and marble; 13 also cinnamon, Indian spice, incense, perfumed oil, frankincense, wine, olive oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, sheep, horses, carriages, slaves, and human lives.* 14 Yes, the fine fruit that you* desired has left you, and all the delicacies and the splendid things have vanished from you, never to be found again.

15 “The merchants who sold these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, 16 saying: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, clothed with fine linen, purple, and scarlet and richly adorned with gold ornaments, precious stones, and pearls,+17 because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’

“And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance”

18 and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’+

20 “Be glad over her, O heaven,+ also you holy ones+ and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced his judgment on her in your behalf!”+

21 And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.+ 22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices+ all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones+ and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”+
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Rev 18: 2 “And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a place where every unclean spirit and every unclean and hated bird lurks!”

Rev 18:9 “And the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality with her and lived with her in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her when they see the smoke from her burning. 10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

21 And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: “Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.+ 22 And the sound of singers who accompany themselves on the harp, of musicians, of flutists, and of trumpeters will never be heard in you again. And no craftsman who practices any trade will ever be found in you again, and no sound of a millstone will ever be heard in you again. 23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices+ all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones+ and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”+

Misty Woods I hope all is well....
In reply; you quote scriptures? Do I need to point out to you one more time.... The bible was made by the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church NONE OTHER! Until the Holy Church put all the truly inspired letters into one book NO ONE was sure what was inspired and what was not! Many were confused by the uninspired letters kicking around! The Holy CHURCH needed an authority too decide what was God' word to end all the confusion! In 400 A.D. the Catholic Church NONE OTHER with the help of the Holy Spirt put all the inspired works into one place and she also rejected the uninspired phony letters! The Holy Spirit helped her to put the bible together AND to this day the Holy Spirit is FOREVER helping; The One Holy Catholic Church in the INTERPRATION of the very same scriptures!

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
Misty Woods The Holy Spirit did not start with your church.... The Holy Spirit is FOREVER WITH the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established on ROCK not on sand! YOU....
Misty Woods
you are forced to reject the scriptures to be a JW! QUESTION: Did Jesus lie? Did the Holy Spirit abandon Jesus' holy body, is the Holy Spirit FOREVER WITH the Church Jesus established?!
QUESTION: "Did Jesus build on ROCK or sand?" Did the Church Jesus established before he left earth; fail?! Again "Did Jesus lie?!"
John 14:25All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Again... The Holy Spirit guided the Church in making the bible? will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Misty Woods Question... "Did Jesus lie.. Is the Holy Spirit FOREVER WITH Jesus' Holy Catholic Body"!? Is the Holy Spirit FOEVER GUIDING the Catholic Church into all truth!? Y or N!? To say NO you must reject the scriptures! Christians believe the scriptures! The Jehovah Witness MUST reject the or rewrite the scriptures to be in Protest against Jesus and his Holy Blameless Church!

YOU POST SCRIPTURES.. ??? As if they were yours to post!? The Scriptures are written by the Church Jesus established for his CHURCH.. NOT YOURS! Your church came along 2000 years after Jesus established his Holy Church on ROCK! Clearly to be a JW you have to; you MUST reject the scriptures! Jesus PROMISED in the scriptures.. "He will ALWAYS BE WITH HIS CHURCH!" ALWAYS Means; he did not leave his bride for your man made church!

Misty Woods You quote scripture prophesy, end times. (above)??? I point out from the scriptures there will be Anti-Christs! ** "Anti-Christ" is him who rejects Jesus and his holy Blameless Catholic Apostolic Church!
** Anti-Christ preaches the Church Jesus guaranteed to never fail built on ROCK; will fail! ** Anti-Christ twists the words of God or even rewrites the words of God!
** Anti-Christ will preach the date and time of the worlds end!
Mark 13:32But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Misty Woods Answer the QUESTIONS above!
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
@metis, read Matthew 5:44. Note Jesus' prelude: "You heard that it was said......but now I'm telling you.."

There's just no getting around it.
That does not in any way negate what the Just-War Theory says as wars of defense can save lives, and is it mandated by Torah. Thus you have to decide whether Jesus is a false prophet if you believe he negated these Torah mandates.

Jesus was speaking at a specific time and in a specific place whereas the Church had no war options since it was not in control of the government, and going to war or not going to war is a governmental decision. The general idea of the Just-War theory is that only a reaction of last resort is allowed, plus the reaction even then has severe restrictions.

See: Just war theory - Wikipedia Here's a segment:
The just war doctrine of the Catholic Church found in the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church, in paragraph 2309, lists four strict conditions for "legitimate defense by military force":[27][28]

  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (the power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition).
The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church elaborates on the Just War Doctrine in paragraphs 500 to 501:[29]

If this responsibility justifies the possession of sufficient means to exercise this right to defence, States still have the obligation to do everything possible "to ensure that the conditions of peace exist, not only within their own territory but throughout the world". It is important to remember that "it is one thing to wage a war of self-defence; it is quite another to seek to impose domination on another nation. The possession of war potential does not justify the use of force for political or military objectives. Nor does the mere fact that war has unfortunately broken out mean that all is fair between the warring parties".
The Charter of the United Nations intends to preserve future generations from war with a prohibition against force to resolve disputes between States. Like most philosophy, it permits legitimate defence and measures to maintain peace. In every case, the charter requires that self-defence must respect the traditional limits of necessity and proportionality.
Therefore, engaging in a preventive war without clear proof that an attack is imminent cannot fail to raise serious moral and juridical questions. International legitimacy for the use of armed force, on the basis of rigorous assessment and with well-founded motivations, can only be given by the decision of a competent body that identifies specific situations as threats to peace and authorizes an intrusion into the sphere of autonomy usually reserved to a State.
Pope John Paul II in an address to a group of soldiers said the following:[30]

Peace, as taught by Sacred Scripture and the experience of men itself, is more than just the absence of war. And the Christian is aware that on earth a human society that is completely and always peaceful is unfortunately an utopia and that the ideologies which present it as easily attainable only nourish vain hopes. The cause of peace will not go forward by denying the possibility and the obligation to defend it.
 
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