The Jehovah's witnesses and the rest. What's the stumper?

[sojourner]

And yet, it is only the contents of the Bible that are inspired by God

So, the “many things Jesus did which are not recorded” weren’t inspired by God? “Knowledge” of ancient texts that come to one today through the Holy Spirit aren’t inspired by God? The “knowledge” you spout here isn’t inspired by God? If the Bible is the only inspired thing, then our worship and spiritual disciplines, our baptisms and prayers, our missions and works of charity are just pi**ing down a hole.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

...was only speaking of the Hebrew texts.

.where does that leave the rest?

I have no idea; this is your delusion, not mine.

it’s a succession of best guesses and “I think” suggestions

That’s the nature of exegesis of ancient texts, in many cases. Many times, we can’t know for certain. That’s just the reality of it.

that’s because it is HIS, not the product of any church

The church is “his,” in fact, is the Body of Christ. Since the church was given all authority, when the church acts, God acts.

Where did you get a different impression?

Reality and reason.

Oh, so much of the Bible can be shelved to make way for things that are new and more acceptable?

That’s not what I said, but nice try at discrediting my post. The Bible and Apostles, teaching must constantly be re-evaluated and reinterpreted in order to retain relevancy. New situations arise that demand today’s Apostles and teachers speak.

If God doesn’t change, why would his word need to do so?

Because we change.

Yep, there were 12 apostles.

What about the 70 in the Bible who were Apostles?

When Judas defected, he was replaced, not succeeded.

In his case, it was both. He was succeeded by Matthias.

There is no such thing as apostolic succession except in the Catholic Church

Au contrare. Apostolic succession isn’t also a reality in the Orthodox and Anglican traditions, and in the Coptic Church.

a church plagued by apostasy

in your opinion.

They relied on the Hebrew Scriptures and the teachings of the apostles in written form

Yeeah. Even the gospels began as oral stories. The Hebrew texts were orally-transmitted for centuries before being written down.

God’s word is HIS, so he determines what it contains...not any man or any church

Except that God gave authority to the church to do that. In fact, if your assertion is the case, your own translation is unauthorized.

Well then, I cannot understand why it was practiced as a form of discipline in the first century church

Your first five words are the most operative in your post.

BTW. I think you need to read up on Munchausen’s Syndrome. LOL.....You are not even close

I think we both know your assessment here is codswallop.

I love the way to rubbish others for stating things with conviction but are not true.....and here you are doing exactly that. Who said?

Not surprising that you reject scholarship. It’s how your cult maintains itself.

Did it ever occur to you that the Babylonian myths were lifted from the events and oral histories that were known but happened before that history was committed to writing by Moses at a later time?

No, because scholarship shows that cannot have been the case.

How could it become part of inspired scripture if it was borrowed from myths.

Because the canon texts aren’t what you believe them to be.

No, but once again it appears that your imagination is running amok in demanding that you know what everyone else doesn’t

If you’d done your share of real scholarship, then you’d know too.

I am amazed at your audacity

I’m sure you are. But your amazement and assessment, not coming from any position of scholastic authority, mean nothing in reality.

Who do you think you are?

And the religious authorities, amazed at Jesus’ audacity, also said, “By whose authority do you do these things?” Frustrated, self-imagined “authorities” ask this question of the legitimate all the time.

Did I see you even condoning Catholic idolatry?

No. You misapprehended what I posted, based on your inadequate knowledge of the nature of idols.

 

[sojourner]

An idol is ''assumed'' to have power in and of itself . that ,BTW ,comes from the people , the people that bow to it .

What’s the intent of those bowing? What do they believe? Do you know?

 

[Deeje]

And here we go again @sojourner......why do you bother? I think it’s very apparent that you yourself are part of some fringe cult of “Christianity” that you are afraid to identify, because you can’t take what you dish out.

You profess to know so much, but reveal that you know very little and that your own evaluation of the Christian Faith is “church- based” rather than “Bible-based”.

I am going to let the judge of all of us provide you with the answers to all your assertions.

In view of Matthew 7:13-14 and 21-23....I wish you all the best with that. I’m not getting involved in your ego tripping again.

 

[sojourner]

why do you bother?

Because the glut of misinformation promulgated by self-proclaimed “avid Bible students” bears rebuttal by folks who have actually been schooled in the subject.

I think it’s very apparent that you yourself are part of some fringe cult of “Christianity” that you are afraid to identify, because you can’t take what you dish out

What you *think* is immaterial. I’d hesitate to judge a mainstream, Christian denomination as a “fringe cult.” As a legal representative of that denomination, I have people to protect, and part of that means drawing boundaries between them and unknown entities (such as you) on the internet. If that offends your sensibilities and draws self-superior amusement, I really don’t care. That’s your baggage to deal with. I really don’t care what cults have to say about me; y’all have 0 authority, so far as I’m concerned, denominationally, spiritually, or otherwise, to make any real determination where my own spiritual validity is concerned.

It’s interesting, though, that you feel you have to resort to a poor ad hominem, lacking any real argument.

You profess to know so much, but reveal that you know very little and that your own evaluation of the Christian Faith is “church- based” rather than “Bible-based”.

1) You’re not in a position to evaluate my spiritual and academic qualifications.
2) The Christian Faith is relationship-based. Teacher/student, master/servant, Father/child, Friend/friend...

I am going to let the judge of all of us provide you with the answers to all your assertions

So you think you’re in charge of God, such that God is unable to do that unless you “let” him?

I’m not getting involved in your ego tripping again

You know where the “ignore” button is...

 

[Deeje]

You know where the “ignore” button is...

I sure do. These responses are fruitless.

As Paul said....."Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." (ESV)

We can allow the judge of all of us to make his choice as per Matthew 7:21-23.....

Conversations closed.

 

[cataway]

What’s the intent of those bowing? What do they believe? Do you know?

evidently those people are looking for someone's contact lens.
they all believe they can find it .
do Catholics lose a lot of contact lens when they get close to statues ?

 

[sojourner]

I sure do. These responses are fruitless.

As Paul said....."Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain." (ESV)

We can allow the judge of all of us to make his choice as per Matthew 7:21-23.....

Conversations closed.

Identifying your problem is the first step to healing. Glad you’ve identified it.

 

[sojourner]

evidently those people are looking for someone's contact lens.
they all believe they can find it .
do Catholics lose a lot of contact lens when they get close to statues ?

Statues are notoriously myopic and use contact lenses a lot — but only when no one’s looking. In fact, the Vatican has spoken ex cathedra on that issue. If you find a contact lens that has fallen from a statue, you can redeem it for Unmerited Favor.

 

[cataway]

Statues are notoriously myopic and use contact lenses a lot — but only when no one’s looking. In fact, the Vatican has spoken ex cathedra on that issue. If you find a contact lens that has fallen from a statue, you can redeem it for Unmerited Favor.

well of course they do , a stone idol needs to be able to see clearly who it is thats bowing to them.

 

[metis]

well of course they do , a stone idol needs to be able to see clearly who it is thats bowing to them.

We don't worship idols, so why do you keep lying? Is this what your Governing Body teaches you as being moral in any way?

The Gospel does not allow lying, but maybe the "gospel" of the JW's does?

 

[cataway]

We don't worship idols, so why do you keep lying? Is this what your Governing Body teaches you as being moral in any way?

The Gospel does not allow lying, but maybe the "gospel" of the JW's does?

if people worshiped at idols , what would it look like ? would we see people on their knee's ? kissing the toes ?
do you think it any different in pure pagan religion's ?

 

[metis]

if people worshiped at idols , what would it look like ? would we see people on their knee's ? kissing the toes ?

One should know by now that you can't judge a book by its cover. It is forbidden under Catholic Canon Law to worship any statue or other object, and for you to state otherwise is being dishonest.

do you think it any different in pure pagan religion's ?

One must go by what their intent is, and in some religions and with some people there is that practice. That's their choice, not mine, nor is it the Catholic Church's.

 

[cataway]

One should know by now that you can't judge a book by its cover. It is forbidden under Catholic Canon Law to worship any statue or other object, and for you to state otherwise is being dishonest.

One must go by what their intent is, and in some religions and with some people there is that practice. That's their choice, not mine, nor is it the Catholic Church's.

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck we should check with you because it might really be a cow ?

 

[metis]

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck we should check with you because it might really be a cow ?

But dishonesty would say a duck is a "cow", which you have basically done. And instead of being honest, you double down on being dishonest, somehow being delusional in believing that being dishonest is being honest and God's will.

The bottom line: No matter what fairy tales your leaders may convince you of, Catholic moral teachings prohibit us from worshipping any object. It is morally bankrupt to misrepresent what we do believe just to create a "strawman" that you then skew based on your dishonesty.

 

[cataway]

But dishonesty would say a duck is a "cow", which you have basically done. And instead of being honest, you double down on being dishonest, somehow being delusional in believing that being dishonest is being honest and God's will.

The bottom line: No matter what fairy tales your leaders may convince you of, Catholic moral teachings prohibit us from worshipping any object. It is morally bankrupt to misrepresent what we do believe just to create a "strawman" that you then skew based on your dishonesty.

But you are being dishonest to your self. you know very well you are making excuses to justify the use of objects you can see to worship a god you can not see.
try as you might ,you are not going to fined scriptures to justify the use of any objects in worship .

 

[Deeje]

But you are being dishonest to your self. you know very well you are making excuses to justify the use of objects you can see to worship a god you can not see.
try as you might ,you are not going to fined scriptures to justify the use of any objects in worship .

No, no, no, Catholic people are not encouraged to bow to idols....but they seem to have lost something in their translation of Exodus 20:4-5....

I wonder what part of those verses that form part of the Ten Commandments they can't understand?
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them".

Must be hard when the Pope fails to set the right example.

God's worshippers are commanded not to "make" idols in the form of "anything", let alone bowing down to them and using them in our worship.

I wonder what God thinks of their excuses....

 

[metis]

But you are being dishonest to your self. you know very well you are making excuses to justify the use of objects you can see to worship a god you can not see.

Nice try, per the simple fact that I know Catholic Canon Law on this and you prefer to honor your own lies.

try as you might ,you are not going to fined scriptures to justify the use of any objects in worship .

Like a prayer book or a Bible?

 

[Muffled]

Muffled right off the bat... I must remind you; "Jesus built only one Church he has ONLY ONE body"! Yes Peter was NOT the founder of the Catholic Church "Jesus was the founded"! Jesus handed the Keys to heaven directly to Peter the ROCK! Jesus built his holy church ON ROCK not on sand.. Jesus' Holy Catholic Church will never fail! "The gates of hell will NOT prevail"!

The Church Jesus built can only be; the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church it is the ONLY Church with roots going all the way back to Peter and thus Jesus! ALL....
Muffled all other churches were started by men.. Luther, Smith, King Henry, Russel, White, Calvin.. etc etc etc THOUSANDS of man made churches all CLAIM they have the ONLY Truth but not even two believe the same things!
All man made churches claim "Jesus failed to establish a church" all claim they MUST come to Jesus' rescue and "RE-FORM" what Jesus lost! AS IF...
Muffled as if Satan had somehow overpowered Jesus and Satan TOOK Jesus' holy body from Jesus!

Jesus is addressing this to HIS CHURCH... Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Muffled I am with you always, even unto the end of the world This means Jesus will never leave his Holy Catholic Church built on ROCK!
Muffled I am with you always, even unto the end of the world This means Jesus is STILL with his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church today! It means there is no need to "RE-FORM" Jesus' church!
It means ALL the thousands of Man made churches are not needed, it means they MUST reject the scriptures God' holy word to remain outside of Jesus' Holy Catholic body!!

I believe Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the church but the rest of the church is built by belief in Him.

I believe it is likely that the RCC was established by those who heard Peter preach and had the Holy Spirit come upon them and then returned to Rome. It is probably also where the African church originated as well.

If you mean other than the RCC I would disagree with you. Churches were started by believers in Jesus except for scientology where there is little likelihood that the founder was a believer. The apostle Paul started many churches in Asia and Greece. Those were not RCC churches.

However that may be the churches were founded by believers. Whether they had more truth than the RCC is debatable but there is no doubt in my mind that they were faithful to God in their understanding as they could be.

I believe the claim that only the RCC church has Jesus and is always right to be absolutely false.

 

[metis]

I believe the claim that only the RCC church has Jesus and is always right to be absolutely false.

Nobody's saying that here, and neither does the CC teach this.

 

[Dogknox20]

I believe Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the church but the rest of the church is built by belief in Him.

I believe it is likely that the RCC was established by those who heard Peter preach and had the Holy Spirit come upon them and then returned to Rome. It is probably also where the African church originated as well.

If you mean other than the RCC I would disagree with you. Churches were started by believers in Jesus except for scientology where there is little likelihood that the founder was a believer. The apostle Paul started many churches in Asia and Greece. Those were not RCC churches.

However that may be the churches were founded by believers. Whether they had more truth than the RCC is debatable but there is no doubt in my mind that they were faithful to God in their understanding as they could be.

I believe the claim that only the RCC church has Jesus and is always right to be absolutely false.

Muffled I hope all is well.... I reply... Scriptures tell you "Jesus built A Church". Singular! God cannot lead into chaos or lie... Satan is the father of Chaos! Scriptures tell you "The Holy Spirit is FOREVER with the Church", that the Holy Spirit will "Guide into All Truth"! Scriptures also tell you..
.................................... Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Muffled Did you see it in the verse above?... "Rejecting the Church is rejecting GOD"! All of these thousands of man made churches in Protest against the ONE Church Jesus made on ROCK not on sand have their teachings.. Not even two of the thousands believe and teach the same things!
Church is invisible
Church is NOT invisible
Church is both..

Church has minsters in charge
Church has congregation in charge

Church needs to be formed anew
Church never failed

Church is a building
Church is the congregation

Man is justified by Works and Faith
Man is justified by Faith Alone

Baptism saves
Baptism is only symbolic

This bread is My Body
This bread symbolically is my body

Church is the foundation and pillar of truth
Church is not the foundation of truth

Infant Baptism
No infants baptized

Music in Church
No music in Church

Wine
Grape juice

Jesus is God
Jesus is Not God

Scriptures Alone are all that is needed to find truth
An authority of scripture is needed for finding truth

Mary is the mother of God
Mary is Not the mother of God

Sacrament are biblical
Sacraments are not biblical

Personal relationship in Jesus is Not biblical!
Personal relationship in Jesus is biblical!

Sinners Prayer saves
Sinners prayer is Not biblical does not save

Confess sins to one another
Confess sins to God alone

Scriptures Alone are biblical
Scriptures Alone are Not biblical, a Tradition of Man

Prayer for the dead
No praying for the dead

Priests
Ministers

No woman pastors
Woman allowed as Pastor

Only “WE” my church is the true church
Any church is as good as the next

There is No hell
There is an eternal hell

Soul sleep
Absent from the body present with God

The rapture is biblical
The rapture is Not biblical

Church has authority
Church has No authority

Suffering is the result of sin

Satan is the Brother of Jesus

Jesus was killed on a post not a cross

My church is nature.
etc
etc
etc

There can only be One Truth 2+2=4 One God one bread one faith!

Ignatius of Antioch
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Muffled did you see it? Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church A.D.110