The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

[Windwalker]

I do not believe it is simply a matter of receptivity although I agree some people are more receptive to inspiration from God than others.

I should add there are times when one is more and less receptive too. It depends on how distracted with ourselves we are choosing to be. But I'd say it's always a matter of receptivity, ultimately. If you don't have that radio-dial tuned in well, you don't hear the music on the airwaves.

However, there is no way to know where God is or what God is doing. I have oft referred to this as the “naïve believer syndrome.”

"No way", "Impossible", and so forth. I refer to this is the cynic syndrome.

I can tell you from experience that you can always say where God is, whether you can see God at that moment or not. "Here". "Everywhere". "Never separate", and so forth. When you turn that radio dial and the music is heard, "Oh there it is!" is the response. Would it be correct for the person in his car to say "Who knows where that music was?" The problem was not the broadcast signal was hiding somewhere doing who knows what, but the "stupid end user" who didn't have his radio receiver turn on and dialed in.

"Who knows where the sun is?," the person wonders when he can't see it behind the clouds obstructing his vision. Just because you can't see, doesn't mean it's not exactly where it should be.

So what about these nonbelievers, are you saying they just have to remove the obstacles?

This is an entire thread discussion in itself, but I'll offer some high-level thoughts here. I think "belief in God" itself can be an obstacle to Realizing "God". It's as I said to you, that if you have an idea of what God should look like (especially strong ideas which say things like "that's impossible), you may never see God.

That is very true, and applies to everyone, "believer" and "non-believer" alike. Sometimes, abandoning belief in God is in fact a step forward to actually finding what can be called "God" without all that theological baggage, such as one picks up by placing the words of "prophets" as absolute. Atheists, can in fact be more spiritually advanced than the "true believers", even though they don't call it God.

To go deeper here would require a lot more time and space than necessary right now. It does tie into something the great Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said though, which resonates deeply as truth: "I pray God make me free of God, so that I may know God in his unconditioned being". Amen.

Self and attachment to this world are obstacles for everyone but non-believers have additional obstacles, skepticism and confirmation bias regarding religion.

Ironically, it may actually be removing obstacles for them, as I pointed out above.

True, a belief is a mental thing based upon objective evidence but knowing is a subjective thing.

You are confused here. Belief is a subjective thing, regardless of whether it has "objective evidence" or not. Beliefs are cognitive and rational in nature. Faith on the other hand, is emotional, non-rational (not irrational), intuitive, sensed, felt, etc. Beliefs are ideas of the mind. Faith is a sense of the heart.

I know because I have had the experience of God speaking to me, every time I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

You can also experience that reading a beautiful poem, an inspired piece of music, holding the hand of a dying loved one, swimming in the ocean, or sitting in complete Silence.

I am not “looking” for God because I will never “find” God.

Back to Wise old Yoda here:

Luke: "I don't believe it."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

 

[Windwalker]

What Jesus taught was for another time in history and his message was about having a personal connection to God personal salvation… That is still necessary but it is not the primary message for this new day… The individual must subjugate their own needs for the good of the whole:

You don't think that message was in Jesus' teaching? I honestly don't understand why you say that Jesus' teaching "was for another time in history"? (Other than to artificially make room for your prophet).

In reality, they are timeless truths. That is what makes them so enduring throughout the ages. They are human truths, not cultural truths. "Love your neighbor as yourself" is not some dated thing like "women should keep silent in church". That's cultural, not the teachings of Jesus.

I don't disagree that how Christians thought 2000 years ago is not in need of updating. But that's Christian ideas about Jesus. You can have modern Christian's ideas about Jesus that do vary considerably, and it is the fundamentalists who artificially try to make the past the present (which is in fact, actually, impossible to do). To me, the whole "prophet" model of God, is what is outdated and needing to be set aside as a relic of the past. I'm far more of the mind, to quote scripture here again,

"You show that you are a letter from Christ... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."​

Again, what is this artificial insistence of the "written word"? To me the answer is clear. It's a substitute for the real thing. It's easier to look outside to some authority, than to hear with ears of your own heart and be "living scriptures". The former is religion. The latter, living Spirit.

I abandoned self-seeking five years ago.

Oh my, you have accomplished what even the most seasoned of spiritual sages have failed to do! In my experience, there is an endless onion to unpeel, and each time you think you have arrive, you are only beginning to discover how deep that goes, how there is yet another layer to your self-seeking, to the ego's clinging. It never ends, it seems. You must do a great deal of meditation to have penetrated so deeply. I meditate over an hour a day, and I am at a place where I am no longer surprised to find yet another room in the basement that needs to be emptied.

It reminds me of an old saying, that those who know, know they don't know. Those who think they know, don't.

Things have change, more than a little. Please go back and read the thread header of this thread, which I ended with “Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?”

Well, yes. And that's great. But when you tell yourself you "can't", or "it's impossible", you're going to get stuck hanging out at the train station reading brochures about distant lands, rather than getting onboard the train and going to the destination. You want to know what God's will is? "All aboard!".

I do not deny that God manifests Himself in all of creation. I am sure I already said that and provided a passage that says that. However, scriptures revealed to Messengers of God are superior because they contain information we cannot get from any other source. Baha’u’llah had the knowledge of God.

Nope. No one can walk your path for you. Only you can know what to do, ultimately. You have to. It's not their spiritual path. It's yours.

Learn from others, but to get to the destination, you have to figure out how to move your feet to get on the traincar.

God chooses these individuals and they are not ordinary human beings only but were pre-existent souls in the spiritual world endowed with the ability and capacity to receive God’s message and convey it to us.

So, they are seen exactly as I said, god-like, deity like figures far above us. I prefer something more realistic, like they were just like us, and they did it, so can we.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unmistakable? I still do not understand exactly what you are describing. There is research we can do to determine if Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God or not but there is no way you can prove that God speaks to you. You are free to believe that if you want to, but since there is no evidence for me to look at I am not going to believe it. The reason I believe that Baha’u’llah got a message from God is not because He said that because that would be a circular argument. I believe He got a message from God because there is a boatload of evidence that demonstrate that He was who He claimed to be.

Because I believe Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God I believe He was infallible so I believe everything He wrote is the absolute Truth from God. And now is the time to present the reason why I do not believe that God communicate directly to any human beings:

“To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” 1 No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 98

No tie of direct intercourse means that God cannot communicate to human beings directly.

That is why God sends Messengers/Manifestations of God.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself................ The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

It is noteworthy that God does not even speak directly to His Messengers but rather speaks through the Holy Spirit.

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

Are you saying that you have had such a personal experience? There are many Christians who might believe that since they believe that God communicates to them through the Holy Spirit, but that is not supported by any Baha’i Writings.

I am sorry but I cannot believe you have had a “face to face” encounter with God because I believe that is impossible. Not only did Jesus say it is impossible, Baha’u’llah also said it. Why should I believe you know more than they do? I won’t say it is an extension of your ego because I honestly don’t know… I just know it is not God. That said, I believe the NDE accounts of feeling enveloped in a white light which they felt was God’s Love… That was not God though, because God is too great to ever experience directly.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attainin the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

Even the Manifestations of God were bowled over by the Holy Spirit, and they are specially equipped to receive it. How much less can an ordinary human ever receive it. The Christians really went south on this one, but I think the Muslims cleaned up that mess in the kitchen. The Essence of God is forever hidden from humans… All we can ever know are the Attributes of God and the Will of God that is revealed by the Messenger.

No, I do not expect that I will ever look back and laugh, not even after I die. As far as I am concerned anyone who believes that have “seen God” is delusional. Even the Messengers never saw God. Moreover, I have no desire to experience God directly or see God.

Now don’t tell me that is why I cannot do it, as if all I have to do is want to.

I see you are using the Bible to support your claims. If you do not believe that Jesus was anyone special then why refer to what Paul says in the Bible? Everything Paul believed was based upon Jesus as the Son of God.

Sorry, but I do not believe the Bible is inerrant and it was also misinterpreted by Christians. Not only that, but the Bible is impossible to decipher. What the heck is this supposed to mean anyhow?

1 Corinthians 13:12 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

It could mean so many different things to so many different people… Do you see the problem? Thank God that we now have the Writings of Baha'u'llah so we do not have to refer to the Bible to figure these God things out.

I am happy for you but I still do not believe that you had an encounter with God or the Holy Spirit. That is highly illogical and my beliefs are based upon logic, not mushy gushy feeling stuff. A finite creature cannot have an encounter with an infinite being. You might want to talk to Truthseeker9 some more because he has had some experiences he believes are related to the Holy Spirit and he is a Baha’i. I met him on Delphi Forums and he is my good friend so I know him well. Because he is a Baha’i I trust how he interprets his God experiences.

Sorry, but a religious belief has to be logical for me to believe it. That is why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian. However, you are absolutely correct that God is incomprehensible and that is precisely why you cannot know that you ever experienced God directly! Also, God is too great to experience directly.

Yes, God is Spirit, whatever that means. We can see that Spirit reflected in all of creation but where I take issue is when you say you can experience it directly (encountering the Divine).

The part that is unhealthy is when you say “God revealed himself to them.” Maybe there is something I am not quite understanding though. Just to let you know, there was a Baha’i on another forum I know very well and I look up to him because he is such a knowledgeable Baha’i and he “lives the life” as well. I always complain on that forum that I feel far from God and he once who once told me that I might be closer to God than I think. He duly noted that it is more often those who think they are far from God who are actually close, because they are the ones who are humble. So it just could be that I am close to God and I do not describe it or experience it the same way you do because I am more of a mental person than an emotional person. I really like this passage which says God knows us better than we can ever know ourselves so it follows that only God knows how close or how far we are from Him.

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-93.html.utf8?query=life|vein&action=highlight#gr3
(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to disagree with that. The one who has the experience is like the poker player who thinks he has the highest cards but does not know what the other players are holding. The players who have the scriptures are the ones holding all the high cards, because they have the actual revealed Word of God by which to measure any kind of spiritual experience they might have. Let me give you an example. A Messianic Christian on another forum insisted that He has heard from God through the Holy Spirit and he described it as a kind of “mystical experience.” He told me that he knows that Baha’u’llah is not the Messiah because God told him so. Right away, I knew this man was not really hearing from God because I know Baha’u’llah is the Messiah.

Most skeptics do not have very open minds. I consider myself an open-minded skeptic because it is good to question things, no matter how fully you believe them. As such I proceed to examining and inquiring into anything that they don't fully understand. The fact that I still do not believe it does not make me a cynic. If I believed things that people tell me that are not verifiable in any manner shape or form I would be gullible. Moreover, I believe Baha’u’llah is infallible so that is the baseline from which I measure all other truth claims. If He says there can be no direct intercourse between God and man in more than one Tablet He wrote, then that is good enough for me. Then, if someone like you tells me of their experience, I will open-mindedly try to understand what they experienced.

I agree that skeptics are often cynical and fearful. These are the nonbelievers I have been talking to daily on other forums for four years and they are the ones who cannot believe in Messengers of God because they cannot trust that they are from God since they are afraid if being wrong. But what harm can it do to check out the Messenger? From what they have said they are afraid of being duped.

I guess you think I am a skeptic because I do not “buy off” on God about mystical experiences being God communicating directly since it challenges my religious beliefs so tell me why I should consider a person’s personal experience over a religious belief that has huge amounts of verifiable evidence to back it up?

When Jesus says, "I pray they may all be one, just as I am in you and you are in me" can mean any number of things. You have chosen to interpret in a way that supports what you believe, that it means Oneness with God. To me that is not to be interpreted literally, it is metaphorical and means closeness to God, which is the goal of every Baha’i! BIG GRIN. However, I am sorry to say that I will never believe that we can be “one with God” because that would mean we are partners with God:

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

How do you think anyone can have a “relationship” with an entity that is incomprehensible, exalted above anything that can either be recounted or perceived? This is illogical so I cannot abide by it.

“It is He Who hath called into being the whole of creation, Who hath caused every created thing to spring forth at His behest. Shall, then, the thing that was born by virtue of the word which His Pen hath revealed, and which the finger of His Will hath directed, be regarded as partner with Him, or an embodiment of His Self? Far be it from His glory that human pen or tongue should hint at His mystery, or that human heart conceive His Essence. All else besides Him stand poor and desolate at His door, all are powerless before the greatness of His might, all are but slaves in His Kingdom. He is rich enough to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

So are you saying that only those who have had a genuine experience of God can have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control? I beg to differ with you. Those who follow the teachings and laws of the Manifestation of God for this day can have all those attributes. You really sound like a Christian yet apparently you do not believe that Jesus was anyone “special.” It is true that you can know people by their fruits but Matthew 7:15-20 was referring only to Prophets of God, not to ordinary people.

Matthew 7: 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I am sorry that I again have to disagree with you as per the meaning of John 10:16“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Only a Baha’i can understand the meaning of that because only a Baha’i knows that Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of Christ returned that Jesus promised to send. The one fold and the one shepherd was what Isaiah envisioned long before Jesus walked the earth. Isaiah used symbolic language to describe the future He saw:

Isaiah 11:6-9 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. There will only be one religion, the religion of God.

For obvious logical reasons, this can never come to fruition until everyone believes in One God and One Religion… It will happen but it is going to take a long time….

 

[Trailblazer]

I should add there are times when one is more and less receptive too. It depends on how distracted with ourselves we are choosing to be. But I'd say it's always a matter of receptivity, ultimately. If you don't have that radio-dial tuned in well, you don't hear the music on the airwaves.

"No way", "Impossible", and so forth. I refer to this is the cynic syndrome.

I can tell you from experience that you can always say where God is, whether you can see God at that moment or not. "Here". "Everywhere". "Never separate", and so forth. When you turn that radio dial and the music is heard, "Oh there it is!" is the response. Would it be correct for the person in his car to say "Who knows where that music was?" The problem was not the broadcast signal was hiding somewhere doing who knows what, but the "stupid end user" who didn't have his radio receiver turn on and dialed in.

"Who knows where the sun is?," the person wonders when he can't see it behind the clouds obstructing his vision. Just because you can't see, doesn't mean it's not exactly where it should be.

This is an entire thread discussion in itself, but I'll offer some high-level thoughts here. I think "belief in God" itself can be an obstacle to Realizing "God". It's as I said to you, that if you have an idea of what God should look like (especially strong ideas which say things like "that's impossible), you may never see God.

That is very true, and applies to everyone, "believer" and "non-believer" alike. Sometimes, abandoning belief in God is in fact a step forward to actually finding what can be called "God" without all that theological baggage, such as one picks up by placing the words of "prophets" as absolute. Atheists, can in fact be more spiritually advanced than the "true believers", even though they don't call it God.

To go deeper here would require a lot more time and space than necessary right now. It does tie into something the great Christian mystic Meister Eckhart said though, which resonates deeply as truth: "I pray God make me free of God, so that I may know God in his unconditioned being". Amen.

Ironically, it may actually be removing obstacles for them, as I pointed out above.

You are confused here. Belief is a subjective thing, regardless of whether it has "objective evidence" or not. Beliefs are cognitive and rational in nature. Faith on the other hand, is emotional, non-rational (not irrational), intuitive, sensed, felt, etc. Beliefs are ideas of the mind. Faith is a sense of the heart.

You can also experience that reading a beautiful poem, an inspired piece of music, holding the hand of a dying loved one, swimming in the ocean, or sitting in complete Silence.

Back to Wise old Yoda here:

Luke: "I don't believe it."
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

I can agree that a person has to be receptive but that is no guarantee they will hear anything and it certainly does not mean they will hear the same thing as others hear… We are all individuals.

I refer to it as the rational believer syndrome when people realize that there is no way to know where God is or what God is doing.

I agree that God is omnipresent but what does that mean?

I would not expect anyone to just believe in God with no evidence that God exists. Sometimes that comes in the form of a personal “God experience.” I know two lifelong atheists who became believers overnight because of personal experiences that they had. Interestingly, the first thing they did was come to a Baha’i forum. Then one of them also went on a Christian forum. My point is that once they knew God existed, they wanted to find out what God had revealed. Obviously not many people are going to have such a personal experience. I sincerely believe it was God who decided to convey His existence to these people.

I agree that atheists can be more spiritually advanced than believers. However, I think that most people want to believe in God if they can. For any atheist I have known that means evidence and I cannot say I blame them because I would not believe without any evidence. I would be an agnostic.

How do you think they can remove the obstacles to experience/belief in God? I think they first have to be sincerely interested in believing and then they have to put forth an effort.

I agree. Belief is both objective and subjective and faith is subjective.

True, I can experience God in silence and in silence and in many things. Music and animals are the ones at the top of my list. I ride my bike to work 13 miles each way and it is often very dark and peaceful in the morning because the traffic is not that heavy that early. I recite prayers for about an hour before I put the radio on for the last half hour of my journey, Christian radio. God really comes across loud and clear in that music.

The spiritual experiences I have had were when reading Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

To be clear, Jesus’ spiritual teachings are eternal, but the message of personal salvation is not what we need for this new day in history. I do not know what you have to compare religions and say one is better than the other because that is not a Baha’i belief. From a Baha’i point of view every religion has a specific purpose to fulfill which corresponds to the Mission of the Prophet that established that religion, and after that purpose has been fulfilled then humanity moves on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution. Moses freed the slaves from bondage and Judaism established the One God concept, which laid the foundation for all the religions that would follow. Jesus focused on the redemption of the individual and the molding of his conduct, and stressed the necessity of inculcating a high standard of morality and discipline into the individual, as the fundamental unit in human society... Islam, the succeeding link in the chain of Divine Revelation, introduced the concept of the nation as a unit and a vital stage in the organization of human society. Then Baha’u’llah came and proclaimed the oneness of the entire human race and revealed a plan to unite all of mankind under One God, and to eliminate religious and sectarian antagonism and the hostility between races and peoples, as well as differences among nations. That is what Isaiah 11:6-9 is all about.

You hit the nail on the head. Of course we cannot know for certain what Jesus actually said, but nothing Jesus purportedly said needs updating, it is timeless and still applicable today. It is what the Church did to change that, the overlay they put on it, that needs changing and has since it was put on! So all Baha’u’llah did was renew the spiritual Truths of Jesus, bring back to life what so many people have forgotten over time since the Church doctrines that focused on original sin, the crucifixion, the resurrection, and being saved led them away from the teachings of Jesus as in the parables.

For example, notice the similarity between these eternal spiritual truths:

Matthew 7 “Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.”
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

I see no reason why we have to choose between the scriptures and the living Spirit. Ideally it should be both. Isn’t that what Jesus taught? I know Baha’u’llah taught that. The scriptures are just to educate us so we can live the life. Most people need that. Not all people can just be spiritual unaided. Notice that part in bold below. That is what Jesus did with His teachings and Baha’u’llah has done the same with His.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

You might have misconstrued what I meant by self-seeking. I meant I am not seeking anything for myself anymore because I do not want anything. I am referring to the material things and activities other people enjoy. All I want to do now is serve God and others. I was much different earlier in my life, I was selfish. I had a lot of baggage from childhood, psychological problems, but I spent a long time in recovery working on myself in counseling, 12 step programs and homeopathic treatment. During those years God and the Baha’i Faith were the furthest things from my mind. Homeopathy changed my life more than anything else because it worked on the vital force and cut through all the layers one by one. I intuitively knew I would not be able to help anyone else until I helped myself. I am not saying I have “arrived” anywhere but I have come a long way, and that is because whenever I decide to do something I go whole hog on it, I never do it halfway...

I had really lost sight of God and I had been angry at Him for a long time, so I was at a turning point five years ago. I was either going to try to seek God and do something with the Baha’i Faith or not. So I started on a Baha’i forum, and then I branched out to other forums, and started learning about other religions, mainly Christianity, as well as cajoling with a lot of nonbelievers. I found my place talking to nonbelievers because I could really relate to them since I understood how they felt since I also had “issues” with God. I also had a new religion they were curious about since they were mostly fallen away Christians. There is a lot more to that story but I won’t tell it now.

Suffice to say I had a bit of a “falling out” so about three weeks ago I left the forum I was on for four years comprised mostly of nonbelievers and then I came here and it felt like coming home... Not only did I have my nonbelievers but also a lot of cool believers like you... Mind you, the only believers I have been talking to on forums were traditional Christians and Jews and Baha’is. I had no idea there were so many believers who are not religious. I really like the variety of beliefs and non-beliefs we have here. I can relate to non-religious believers because I have never been religious like most Baha’is, but rather consider myself spiritual. I say that because I am not involved in the religious organization although I still believe everything the religion teaches. I have never been a conformist so religion is difficult for me but I am so “in love” with the teachings of Baha’u’llah, and that is why I became a Baha’i.

So for the last five years I have been trying to accomplish several things, learn more about Baha’i and other religions and get closer to God and share with others if they are interested in what I have to say. Although I am the one putting forth the effort, I know that none of what I am able to do is coming from me; I am aided by God through the Concourse on high and a company of His favored angels. It is with me constantly.

Don’t take everything I say so seriously I am very open-minded and open to change... As I just said above, my whole life has been a process of change based upon self-reflection and searching for truth for the last 33 years... I do not believe anyone “arrives” just because they join a religion. Moreover, it is a Baha’i belief that we are all on a spiritual journey that is never-ending. I think I resisted getting on the train until five years ago because I intuitively knew what that would mean to my life... I cannot get my old life back. FROWN SMILE

Just because I believe Baha’u’llah had the knowledge of God and I believe what He wrote and try to live by it does not mean I am not walking my own spiritual path. It is a Baha’i belief that we are all responsible for our own spiritual growth. Baha’i is not Christianity, it is very different. I actually do not depend upon others, I have always been self-sufficient, but I do like the company of like-minded people and even people who believe differently because I think we can all learn from each other.

The Baha’i Faith is different from Christianity in that Jesus came in the station of the Son but Baha’u’llah came in the station of the Father. That is too involved to explain right now but suffice to say that means that Baha’u’llah is above an ordinary man because He is made of the substance of God. What that means I cannot say because it is a mystery. Suffice to say, Baha’u’llah is not someone we try to emulate and that was not His role. He spoke for God and He spoke with great authority because this is a new age of humanity and his mission was to usher it in and write the blueprint instructions humanity will need to build the Kingdom of God on earth. His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha, who was the Centre of Baha’u’llah’s Covenant is kind of like Jesus is to Christians and he is considered the Exemplar because we are to strive to be like him. Ideally we can be like Abdu’l-Baha because he was just a man, although a very spiritual man.

 

[Windwalker]

I can agree that a person has to be receptive but that is no guarantee they will hear anything and it certainly does not mean they will hear the same thing as others hear… We are all individuals.

If this is true as you say, which I do agree with, that we don't all hear the same things, then why all this over-emphasis on the importance of a "prophet of God"? Isn't that a belief we all need to hear the same thing?

I refer to it as the rational believer syndrome when people realize that there is no way to know where God is or what God is doing.

Considering our unconscious minds know things we don't consciously, then what you say is true, in this sense. If however, you can open that door, then it's perfectly obvious. But at least in the meantime, rationally, you can at least know God isn't away, off somewhere else, but fully right here, like knowing the sun is behind that cloud. Our conscious minds are very much like that overcast sky.

I agree that God is omnipresent but what does that mean?

Think of it like this. Everything that exists are like pencil drawings on a piece of paper. Each drawing is uniquely different, of many shapes and sizes, simplicities and complexities, different colored pencils, and so forth. You are are one of these complex patterns of drawings.

Now, take a look at all these drawings all at once. What do they all depend upon universally for their existence? What gives them their existence as drawings? What is foundational to their being? The answer is the paper they are drawn upon. Without that paper, there can be nothing drawn. They cannot exist without the paper. The paper is fundamental to their being.

Spirit is that paper which is everywhere at once, and nowhere in particular. It is an infinite sheet of paper with no edges, and nothing that exists, exists outside it, nor can exist outside it. It is no object itself in that way, and my calling "it" an "it" is a misnomer in that language cannot speak in non-linear or nondualistic terms this way.

Another way to think of God is in terms of Silence and music. The silence itself is not the sounding of the notes, but silence is what makes the notes, the notes. In a piece of music, that silence is "omnipresent". Does this help?

I would not expect anyone to just believe in God with no evidence that God exists. Sometimes that comes in the form of a personal “God experience.” I know two lifelong atheists who became believers overnight because of personal experiences that they had.

Well, yes. I agree. I'm not sure why someone claims they know something about God is true based on the words of someone else, while they lack personal experience. An interesting thing here is, that in you speaking of these atheists who became believers overnight because of personal experience, you didn't say to them, "How do you really know that was God"? That's interesting, isn't it?

Interestingly, the first thing they did was come to a Baha’i forum. Then one of them also went on a Christian forum. My point is that once they knew God existed, they wanted to find out what God had revealed.

Well, even though this is a bit anecdotal of an example given it's just two individuals, it is still interesting nonetheless. The things my mind are thinking of are types of people and personalities that need to find answers external to themselves.

In fact, I did that same thing myself when I was younger. Then in time I came to realize they didn't have answers to questions like these, only strongly held beliefs based on how they read and interpreted things. It soon enough became a case for me where these words from the psalmist rang true to me, "I have more insight than all my teachers."

While that is not true at all times, on my given path, it certainly became true back then, and I soon outgrew them and had to break away from the clutches of their authoritarian views of God. God is much larger than their ideas of God. God is much larger than anyone's ideas of God, including these "prophets".

Obviously not many people are going to have such a personal experience. I sincerely believe it was God who decided to convey His existence to these people.

Why do you selectively believe it in this case, and not in others where you have been adamant that it is impossible to know?

I agree that atheists can be more spiritually advanced than believers. However, I think that most people want to believe in God if they can.

That is not necessarily true. I'm going to pick up this point when I return to my reply later today. So... don't get ahead of me and type another reply before I finish.

 

[Windwalker]

Picking up again....

I agree that atheists can be more spiritually advanced than believers. However, I think that most people want to believe in God if they can.

I'm not sure people want to believe in God, per se, but rather the real desire, if they have it, is to find Ultimate meaning to existence. A God image may not be necessary. But in a sense, since God generally represents that, what you say is true in principle. But it's not like they're told about God from a particular religion's perspective and say, "I want to believe in that, if I could". The image of God that some people hold, would never work for some people, myself included.

For any atheist I have known that means evidence and I cannot say I blame them because I would not believe without any evidence. I would be an agnostic.

But the kinds of evidence I generally hear being asked for is about proving God as some sort of entity exists, like a Bigfoot or something. Such nonsense as trying to "prove God" using science and such, is horribly misguided and frankly ridiculous, and I primarily include all of this Christian apologists, trying to "prove" the resurrection, and such absurdities. Misguided, is a really my nice way of saying deeply ignorant.

How do you think they can remove the obstacles to experience/belief in God? I think they first have to be sincerely interested in believing and then they have to put forth an effort.

Well, yes. But to become interested is the key. And this isn't true for atheists specifically, but anyone to want to give two hoots for the larger questions of life, of which God represents that. Even people who may be part of a religion and give a token, "sure I believe God exists", for the most parts don't pay it much mind aside from an intellectual placeholder on how stuff happens, and whatnot. It has little to do with any actual personal interest in pursuing the knowledge of God. I'm pretty sure you're going to agree with me here.

But to the question, what does it take? Evidence? No. I think it's more essential than that. I think the question has to be pressing enough to matter. The question, comes first. I'd say what leads most people to really question the meaning of life itself, is a deeply personal, basic existential question. Their minds and hearts have a deeper yearning to understand themselves in the face of the Universe. "Who am I?", is not a question a lot of people bother to look at, as they just live out their lives content with the food on their plate and getting sex to fulfill basic drives for existence. If they feel secure, they're content, and all that other stuff doesn't matter.

Until it does.

And that's the big question. When does it matter? I would say it matters when the inertia of the security and contentment conveyor belt taking them through life becomes disrupted. Something, most often, is jarring enough, threatening enough, or just reaching the end of the rope enough where fulfillment is thrown into deep question. Often this is in the form a traumatic event that shakes one loose from the neat and tidy little world they found themselves safe and secure within.

Aside from that, there are some souls that are just born attuned to the subtler things of reality, of which God is mostly seen and known. They have questions about their being, such as I recall as a youth of only 13 standing with a chainsaw cutting wood, then pausing and looking up through the trees at the sky and asked the question of it, why I exist. I thought about existence itself, and what did it mean to be me in the face of this?

That early question is still being pursued by me to this day! I have some much deeper thoughts about that now, however.....

So, certain personalities may just have a proclivity towards that, like some are drawn to be musicians, or poets, or dancers. But even for those like me, even then you can find yourself lost on that conveyor belt of culture and end up needing something to jar you back to your senses, and open that "natural talent", to call it that, to go pursuing the Deep. I guess, I'm sharing a bit about myself here.

I agree. Belief is both objective and subjective and faith is subjective.

To clarify, belief itself is a subjective activity. But it's beliefs are generally about objective things it can look at, process, manipulate, store away, etc. Whether what it believes can be substantiated as "objectively true", is incidental to the subjective act of believing itself. Do you follow this?

True, I can experience God in silence and in silence and in many things. Music and animals are the ones at the top of my list. I ride my bike to work 13 miles each way and it is often very dark and peaceful in the morning because the traffic is not that heavy that early.

That sounds wonderful! I'm a bike rider, and it's a very meditative experience for me. I look forward to it to spend time with God, in that sense.

I recite prayers for about an hour before I put the radio on for the last half hour of my journey, Christian radio. God really comes across loud and clear in that music.

Inspirational music does have its place.

The spiritual experiences I have had were when reading Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

But do you limit it to that? It sounds to me like you can find God in other activities as well. The wonderful thing is when they are all God speaking to you, just in different ways. That's the key to a truly spiritual life.

 

[Trailblazer]

If this is true as you say, which I do agree with, that we don't all hear the same things, then why all this over-emphasis on the importance of a "prophet of God"? Isn't that a belief we all need to hear the same thing?

No, absolutely not, believe me... Baha'is do not all hear the same thing when they read what Baha'u'llah wrote. We all march to the beat of our own drummer. True, we all believe the same teachings and theology but we all apply them differently and we all relate to God very differently.

Considering our unconscious minds know things we don't consciously, then what you say is true, in this sense. If however, you can open that door, then it's perfectly obvious. But at least in the meantime, rationally, you can at least know God isn't away, off somewhere else, but fully right here, like knowing the sun is behind that cloud. Our conscious minds are very much like that overcast sky.

Technically speaking, our unconscious minds do not know anything because our unconscious is the repository of feelings and thoughts we are unaware of... So the goal as I see it is to become conscious of those so they do not control our behavior from behind the scenes... My good Buddhist friend called that "living consciously." I know God is right here, but I do not pretend to know what God is doing or thinking... I actually like they mystery of not knowing.

Think of it like this. Everything that exists are like pencil drawings on a piece of paper. Each drawing is uniquely different, of many shapes and sizes, simplicities and complexities, different colored pencils, and so forth. You are are one of these complex patterns of drawings.

Now, take a look at all these drawings all at once. What do they all depend upon universally for their existence? What gives them their existence as drawings? What is foundational to their being? The answer is the paper they are drawn upon. Without that paper, there can be nothing drawn. They cannot exist without the paper. The paper is fundamental to their being.

Spirit is that paper which is everywhere at once, and nowhere in particular. It is an infinite sheet of paper with no edges, and nothing that exists, exists outside it, nor can exist outside it. It is no object itself in that way, and my calling "it" an "it" is a misnomer in that language cannot speak in non-linear or nondualistic terms this way.

i think of God as the paper without which we cannot exist.

Another way to think of God is in terms of Silence and music. The silence itself is not the sounding of the notes, but silence is what makes the notes, the notes. In a piece of music, that silence is "omnipresent". Does this help?

Thanks, but I try not to think too much about what I know I cannot ever understand, an infinite God. I just believe that God is omniscient so He knows what is going on at all times... How God can be everywhere all at once is beyond my pay grade.

Well, yes. I agree. I'm not sure why someone claims they know something about God is true based on the words of someone else, while they lack personal experience. An interesting thing here is, that in you speaking of these atheists who became believers overnight because of personal experience, you didn't say to them, "How do you really know that was God"? That's interesting, isn't it?

The reason that Baha'u'llah (and the other Prophets) knew about God is because of their personal experience. I do not need to have the personal experience in order to benefit from what they knew because I believe they had the experience. Moreover, God is not going to reveal to me what He reveals to Prophets so it makes sense to me to reap the benefits of what they revealed.

I believe these atheists because of the way they described their experience and the effect it had upon their lives... That is unmistakable. Only the real God could have such a profound effect upon a person. Also, I take what people tell me about their experiences at face value unless there is a reason not to believe them. For example, there was once this man on another forum who said that God revealed things to him and that God was like a big machine in the sky, and he had all manner of strange beliefs that conflicted with my beliefs. I could not believe that God ever said that to him. The man also had a history of manic-depressive illness.

I do not question that you have had a mystical experience because I have no reason to question it. There are Baha'is who have had mystical experiences; I do not understand what happened but I do not tell them nothing happened.

Well, even though this is a bit anecdotal of an example given it's just two individuals, it is still interesting nonetheless. The things my mind are thinking of are types of people and personalities that need to find answers external to themselves.

The purpose of Prophets is not so we can find answers external to ourselves; it is so we can find answers within ourselves.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and have evinced such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

In fact, I did that same thing myself when I was younger. Then in time I came to realize they didn't have answers to questions like these, only strongly held beliefs based on how they read and interpreted things. It soon enough became a case for me where these words from the psalmist rang true to me, "I have more insight than all my teachers."

While that is not true at all times, on my given path, it certainly became true back then, and I soon outgrew them and had to break away from the clutches of their authoritarian views of God. God is much larger than their ideas of God. God is much larger than anyone's ideas of God, including these "prophets".

Whereas it may well be true that you might have more insight than other believers, I do not believe it is possible for you to have more knowledge than a Manifestation of God such as Baha'u'llah, because God only reveals that knowledge to selected individuals who are chosen. As such, I might have more insight than another Baha'i about what Baha'u'llah revealed or they might have more insight than I do, based upon personal experience, but Baha'u'llah has more knowledge and insight than any of us. We cannot "be" a Manifestation of God although we can manifest the attributes if God.

Why do you selectively believe it in this case, and not in others where you have been adamant that it is impossible to know?

I meant it is impossible to know for certain, but I believe they had those experiences. Maybe one reason I believed it is because of the way they described it. I was so taken with one of their experiences that I copied it from his personal message to me into a Word document to refer back to later. When I read it I cry. He is clearly one of the most spiritual people I have ever met, so humble. I have no idea what happened to him after that. He came to the Baha'i Forum and then he left although he pops in once in a while.

That is not necessarily true. I'm going to pick up this point when I return to my reply later today. So... don't get ahead of me and type another reply before I finish.

Okay, I look forward to that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Picking up again....

I'm not sure people want to believe in God, per se, but rather the real desire, if they have it, is to find Ultimate meaning to existence. A God image may not be necessary. But in a sense, since God generally represents that, what you say is true in principle. But it's not like they're told about God from a particular religion's perspective and say, "I want to believe in that, if I could". The image of God that some people hold, would never work for some people, myself included.

I agree, it is that they want to know the purpose of their existence, not that they are looking for a God of religion. However, from all the interaction I have had with nonbelievers, I think some of them want to know if a God exists because on a subconscious level they know this is important. But I think so many people are genuinely lost and confused because there are so many ideas about God out there. This happens whenever a new Revelation of God is revealed because the Holy Spirit thus released stirs up so much energy.

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 31

But the kinds of evidence I generally hear being asked for is about proving God as some sort of entity exists, like a Bigfoot or something. Such nonsense as trying to "prove God" using science and such, is horribly misguided and frankly ridiculous, and I primarily include all of this Christian apologists, trying to "prove" the resurrection, and such absurdities. Misguided, is a really my nice way of saying deeply ignorant.

I agree that science is not going to ever prove God exists, that is just silly. The only evidence that God exists is what God provides, logically speaking, and the only evidence God has ever provided is the Messengers of God and the scriptures that they revealed. That does not preclude God revealing Himself to a individuals such as the atheists I cited but there is no point waiting for that to happen because it is a rare occurrence. As such, when nonbelievers ask me for evidence I tell them that Messengers are the only evidence. However, I have also suggested that they pray and ask God to guide them to the truth.

Well, yes. But to become interested is the key. And this isn't true for atheists specifically, but anyone to want to give two hoots for the larger questions of life, of which God represents that. Even people who may be part of a religion and give a token, "sure I believe God exists", for the most parts don't pay it much mind aside from an intellectual placeholder on how stuff happens, and whatnot. It has little to do with any actual personal interest in pursuing the knowledge of God. I'm pretty sure you're going to agree with me here.

Yes, I definitely agree with you. Many religious people I know do not really give two hoots about the Truth from God. All Baha'is I know do care about pursuing the knowledge of God, but many Christians I know do not give a tinkers damn, Imo, because they believe they know everything and they are saved and forgiven... Jews I know also hold the position that they know everything about God, less the saved and forgiven part. I don't like getting started like this but it is my pet peeve. Admittedly, I am biased by the fact that I do not have a wide exposure to Christians and Jews, just some at work and a few on forums.

But to the question, what does it take? Evidence? No. I think it's more essential than that. I think the question has to be pressing enough to matter. The question, comes first. I'd say what leads most people to really question the meaning of life itself, is a deeply personal, basic existential question. Their minds and hearts have a deeper yearning to understand themselves in the face of the Universe. "Who am I?", is not a question a lot of people bother to look at, as they just live out their lives content with the food on their plate and getting sex to fulfill basic drives for existence. If they feel secure, they're content, and all that other stuff doesn't matter.

That's it. You hit the nail on the head. Whether they are a nonbeliever or a believer, they have to care about their purpose in life, more than mere survival in the material world and physical pleasures. So, no matter who they are, if (a) they don't care or (b) they think they have figured that out, they are not going to be searching for God's Truth... I think you will like the Tablet of the True Seeker. Below is a paragraph close to the end that really describe the way I feel.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh,p. 269

Aside from that, there are some souls that are just born attuned to the subtler things of reality, of which God is mostly seen and known. They have questions about their being, such as I recall as a youth of only 13 standing with a chainsaw cutting wood, then pausing and looking up through the trees at the sky and asked the question of it, why I exist. I thought about existence itself, and what did it mean to be me in the face of this?

I cannot say I recall thinking about this as a child, I was too busy surviving a difficult childhood. I do believe i was guided to the Truth, perhaps as recompense for what I had to endure, perhaps because God knew what I would do later... and it was later, much later, before I finally realized the gem I had all along.

That early question is still being pursued by me to this day! I have some much deeper thoughts about that now, however.....

So, certain personalities may just have a proclivity towards that, like some are drawn to be musicians, or poets, or dancers. But even for those like me, even then you can find yourself lost on that conveyor belt of culture and end up needing something to jar you back to your senses, and open that "natural talent", to call it that, to go pursuing the Deep. I guess, I'm sharing a bit about myself here.

Thanks for sharing. I understand better where people are coming from when I have a personal sense about them... It seems funny to me how some people relate to posters on these forums, not as people but as ideas... I cannot think about people that way; the posters here are people just as much as if they were standing in my living room. I returned to the Baha'i Faith five years ago after a long hiatus, but I did not really get jarred into a personal quest for God until June 2014, when I had a spiritual experience as the result of a major crisis.

To clarify, belief itself is a subjective activity. But it's beliefs are generally about objective things it can look at, process, manipulate, store away, etc. Whether what it believes can be substantiated as "objectively true", is incidental to the subjective act of believing itself. Do you follow this?

Yes, I am following all of this. I have often told people "I know" God exists and I get a lot of guff for this, and even some believers told me I cannot know, I can only believe... No, I know, and I do not need any objective proof. This kind of certitude is not something one can put into words, it does not come from religion.

That sounds wonderful! I'm a bike rider, and it's a very meditative experience for me. I look forward to it to spend time with God, in that sense.

Inspirational music does have its place.

I do not ride the bike for recreation, but I have to get to work, and I do not like cars, a long story for maybe another day. However, it has worked fine for me because I have three hours a day alone on my bike, even though where i live I am often alone and wet. It is also good for my health. I love Christian music as I find these Christians have a very good idea of who God is and have their priorities straight, although admittedly I have to get past the way they relate to Jesus as God and Savior and that He rose and is going to return. I am good at filtering.

But do you limit it to that? It sounds to me like you can find God in other activities as well. The wonderful thing is when they are all God speaking to you, just in different ways. That's the key to a truly spiritual life.

Activities, what are those? I do not have any time for any activities other than work, getting to and fro, and forums. That's okay though, that is just where I am at in my life right now... I do go for coffee once in a while and I love watching all the wild animals and birds all we have on our deck... I also love and see God speaking to me in my 11 cats! They probably speak to me more than anything else in life, aside from on forums.

 

[Windwalker]

No, absolutely not, believe me... Baha'is do not all hear the same thing when they read what Baha'u'llah wrote. We all march to the beat of our own drummer. True, we all believe the same teachings and theology but we all apply them differently and we all relate to God very differently.

Would you say there are those who don't agree with some of the teachings? Like, say, in Christianity you have Christians who don't believe Jesus bodily rose from the grave, or that humans are born with a fallen, sinful nature, or that the doctrine of blood sacrifice for sin in an outmoded idea with its past in tribal cultures?

Technically speaking, our unconscious minds do not know anything because our unconscious is the repository of feelings and thoughts we are unaware of... So the goal as I see it is to become conscious of those so they do not control our behavior from behind the scenes... My good Buddhist friend called that "living consciously." I know God is right here, but I do not pretend to know what God is doing or thinking... I actually like they mystery of not knowing.

Yes, technically speaking it's not in our conscious awareness, but at the same time it is taking in everything it encounters. Our conscious mind filters out what it values and disregards the rest. But it is still there, influencing, informing, etc.

As far as knowing what God is thinking or doing, I think the thing is that for me I don't think of God in these terms, as it would seem to suggest some independent entity, over there somewhere, with thoughts, ideas, feelings, and emotions even, such as angry, jealous, happy, sad, and so forth. Ascribing any of these to God is of course to me an anthropomorphic projection. But here's the thing. Even though that language about God "doing" and "thinking" doesn't register with me, I'll share with you how I interpret these sorts of expressions such as you are providing.

What you are expressing to me is simply a reversal of roles. It's not that God is thinking something else, but you are. You are not in tune. The radio dial isn't quite aligned and the music is static on the airwaves. You are somewhere else, not God. Think of it in terms of what David expressed in one of the Psalms, "Take not your Spirit from me", or other expressions of humans who wonder where God is, "Why have you left me. Why have you forsaken me," and so forth. All this is a humans externalizing their own feelings of absence within themselves. It's a projection onto God from their own thoughts as God "doing something".

God can't be anywhere but fully 10,000,000% closer to everyone than our own breathing is to us. It "feels" like God is gone, because we have made God absent from our awareness. And that's all it is. So when you say "I don't know what God is thinking", you're saying you feel a disconnect from the awareness of God with your mind and spirit. Well.... you need to fix that then, I'd say.

i think of God as the paper without which we cannot exist.

Well, yes. That is exactly what I said.

Thanks, but I try not to think too much about what I know I cannot ever understand, an infinite God.

No one would ever expect you or any other human to understand God. At least not with the mind. However, with our being we can understand God. But that understanding however is ever evolving, ever exploring deeper into the Abyss that is all of Life. Each season of change in our lives opens us to deeper and deeper understanding of that Infinite Ocean. There is no end to it. There is no end to God. There is no end to the heights and breaths and depths of living and being alive under God's sun shining on us in every second, in every molecule of our being in these bodies.

We can understand that. Yes. I encourage you to try. "Taste and see, the Lord is good", as the poet said.

I just believe that God is omniscient so He knows what is going on at all times... How God can be everywhere all at once is beyond my pay grade.

And so following suit with what I said above, I think what you are really expressing is your sense that God must know your thoughts, because God isn't "out there", at least in how you may sense that unaware to yourself, yet.

We are all connected to God, and frankly our thoughts penetrate into the fabric of the universe and God Itself. Please don't put those "dirty thoughts" inside God's Mind. I think of what Mahatma Gandhi said, "I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet." We're here in God's Mind. Let's not walk through his Mind with our dirty feet. We have to live Here too.

I'm going to pick up some more thoughts later, so I'll finish the reply then.

 

[Trailblazer]

Would you say there are those who don't agree with some of the teachings? Like, say, in Christianity you have Christians who don't believe Jesus bodily rose from the grave, or that humans are born with a fallen, sinful nature, or that the doctrine of blood sacrifice for sin in an outmoded idea with its past in tribal cultures?

I would say that Baha'is all agree with the teachings of Baha'u'llah but we might interpret them a little differently. We all believe in the same core theology such as progressive revelation and that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. We do not have any man-made doctrines such as Christians have a blood sacrifice for sin. We have the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah to refer to so we do not need doctrines. We also have the Writings of the appointed interpreters of Baha’u’llah’s Writings, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, which are part of what we refer to as the “Authoritative Writings” of the Baha’i Faith.

Yes, technically speaking it's not in our conscious awareness, but at the same time it is taking in everything it encounters. Our conscious mind filters out what it values and disregards the rest. But it is still there, influencing, informing, etc.

As far as knowing what God is thinking or doing, I think the thing is that for me I don't think of God in these terms, as it would seem to suggest some independent entity, over there somewhere, with thoughts, ideas, feelings, and emotions even, such as angry, jealous, happy, sad, and so forth. Ascribing any of these to God is of course to me an anthropomorphic projection. But here's the thing. Even though that language about God "doing" and "thinking" doesn't register with me, I'll share with you how I interpret these sorts of expressions such as you are providing.

What you are expressing to me is simply a reversal of roles. It's not that God is thinking something else, but you are. You are not in tune. The radio dial isn't quite aligned and the music is static on the airwaves. You are somewhere else, not God. Think of it in terms of what David expressed in one of the Psalms, "Take not your Spirit from me", or other expressions of humans who wonder where God is, "Why have you left me. Why have you forsaken me," and so forth. All this is a humans externalizing their own feelings of absence within themselves. It's a projection onto God from their own thoughts as God "doing something".

God can't be anywhere but fully 10,000,000% closer to everyone than our own breathing is to us. It "feels" like God is gone, because we have made God absent from our awareness. And that's all it is. So when you say "I don't know what God is thinking", you're saying you feel a disconnect from the awareness of God with your mind and spirit. Well.... you need to fix that then, I'd say.

When I say I do not know what God is thinking or doing I mean I do not know what God is thinking or doing, because God is unknowable. That is different from saying I am out of tune with God for even if I was in tune with the Spirit of God I still could never know what an unknowable God is thinking. If God is conscious of His creation, has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, than in some sense God thinks, although not like a human, since God transcends all human limitations and forms:

Shoghi Effendi writes: What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

No one would ever expect you or any other human to understand God. At least not with the mind. However, with our being we can understand God. But that understanding however is ever evolving, ever exploring deeper into the Abyss that is all of Life. Each season of change in our lives opens us to deeper and deeper understanding of that Infinite Ocean. There is no end to it. There is no end to God. There is no end to the heights and breaths and depths of living and being alive under God's sun shining on us in every second, in every molecule of our being in these bodies.

I agree God is infinite and as such there is no end to what understandings we can have of God but we will never know God’s Essence, not even Baha’u’llah, although He knows God in some way that is impossible for us to understand:

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

I honestly do not know what this passage means, to attain the presence of God. I hope I will understand that better after I die.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

And so following suit with what I said above, I think what you are really expressing is your sense that God must know your thoughts, because God isn't "out there", at least in how you may sense that unaware to yourself, yet.

Yes, I believe we God is closer to us than our life vein, which means we are closer to Him than we know. However, if we shut God out, God’s love cannot reach us. That is where I have an issue at times. I associate suffering with God and thus it is difficult to love God.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovestMe not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

 

[kaat]

I am new to this forum. I came here about 10 days ago. This will be the first thread I post ...

Helluva 1st post! & Welcome.

Forgive me for not going through the thread yet; I prefer to base my initial reaction on the original point ...

Well, well, well. Your ideas immediately put me in mind of a central conundrum I had/have ...

When I got interested in spirituality, it first seemed obvious that I would believe in a Christian-style God. It's in my culture. But I never got there.

See, for me, it is not logical to "choose" what you believe in. Which I guess means I am demanding some sort of evidence. And none of them Christians, or anyone else, has any actual evidence. Why believe? It's more like "hope", isn't it? To be perfectly honest, I've often pissed people off when I hear some flowery description of a "God experience", and say: That's one dumb reason to believe, isn't it? Plus, it's scientifically known that "revelatory" experiences are real, and frequent, and totally false, in our brains.

And yet, still even now, I have a sense of a "calling" from a God. Some weirdos have even told me I will meet God. To which I say: Fine. I'll wait here, and believe it when I see it. Is my thinking flawed?

And on top of all this, I have ALWAYS recognized and "envied" what believers get as a result of believing. Great, great post, my friend - do more like it - the big questions, for me.

Oh, and my Buddhism is a natural result of all this - I don't consider it religious in the slightest - more like psychology or philosophy. I don't understand reincarnation at all, and thus I'm comfortable to be labelled a "radical" Buddhist.

Martin

 

[Windwalker]

The reason that Baha'u'llah (and the other Prophets) knew about God is because of their personal experience.

Ditto. Theological understandings, memorizing scriptures, following all the practices, pale by comparison in the face of firsthand personal experience. Once personal experience is added, everything one once believed is now taken in an entirely different light, with new a fuller meaning held within a fuller context. Without the context, it's all just glimmers of light poking through a little here and there.

I do not need to have the personal experience in order to benefit from what they knew because I believe they had the experience.

True to some extent, but as I said a thin ray of light in a darkened room may offer some guidance to the door, but once the Door is opened, Light fills the entire room with its Presence and everything becomes visible.

Moreover, God is not going to reveal to me what He reveals to Prophets so it makes sense to me to reap the benefits of what they revealed.

But, why? This makes no sense at all to me. I would say, once again, this is that role-reversal, projecting that it is God withholding something from you, when it is in fact yourself holding God at bay. When you are ready, then you open the door. It's not God barring the door from you, but yourself barring yourself through, frankly, a lack of faith.

I believe these atheists because of the way they described their experience and the effect it had upon their lives... That is unmistakable.

Again, ditto. As I said, especially if you have had such an experience yourself, 'like recognizes like'.

Only the real God could have such a profound effect upon a person.

Yep. But yet, theologically you place limits on God in people's lives, saying things like "only" the prophets, not you." I find that very wrong, and a problem where one's religious beliefs become partly responsible for keeping someone limited in their spiritual awakening.

A simple analogy is the children's story of the little engine who could. "I can't make it, I can't make it," results in a self-fulfilled prophecy. But when you are told yes you can, and you take courage from this, looking to others ahead of you who have, then you may find you realizing your true potentials. Any "prophet" that says you can't, "only I can", in some attempt to control their religion, creates a very real disservice to their sincere followers.

The purpose of Prophets is not so we can find answers external to ourselves; it is so we can find answers within ourselves.

And once you are able to, then you can become a prophet too, sharing from the reservoir of your own personal insights into the nature and being of God.

Whereas it may well be true that you might have more insight than other believers, I do not believe it is possible for you to have more knowledge than a Manifestation of God such as Baha'u'llah, because God only reveals that knowledge to selected individuals who are chosen.

Why? Who is it that decided this? That Light is available to all of humankind, without any withholding to anyone. This notion that God selects only one or two people to reveal himself to is nothing more than a projection of one's own realization of their shortcomings in this regard, and an excuse for themselves. "There are just something we aren't meant to understand," sorts of comments are a cop-out for one's own shortcomings. Don't blame God. Blame yourself, take responsibility, and grow.

Rather than deifying these prophets as god-like creatures, I realize that we actually can surpass them, as it should be. Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

Why does your religion place a glass ceiling on God, artificially placing its prophets at the top? Just repeating, 'that's just the way it is', is not addressing the very real question.

As such, I might have more insight than another Baha'i about what Baha'u'llah revealed or they might have more insight than I do, based upon personal experience, but Baha'u'llah has more knowledge and insight than any of us. We cannot "be" a Manifestation of God although we can manifest the attributes if God.

In Buddhist beliefs, we can be a Buddha ourselves. It's not limited to a class of people, which is a distinction you are making. I don't agree with that distinction. Do the Baha'i' limit the Buddha as someone separate and distinct from everyone else's potential, that only the Buddha, would be the Buddha? Buddhists themselves do not believe this. They believe we all have that Buddha nature, and it is just a matter of Realizing that.

 

[Windwalker]

We all believe in the same core theology such as progressive revelation and that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. We do not have any man-made doctrines such as Christians have a blood sacrifice for sin.

But the former is as much a "man-made doctrine" as the substitutionary atonement doctrine is. They are each simply a device for the enactment of faith - a symbol of faith in other words, which are not meant to be scrutinized too closely in order to remain effective. To believe in something is the key, and it has to make enough sense to be "believable" enough to function.

The blood sacrifice doctrine made plenty of sense back then, given the context of the age it was created against the backdrop of the Jewish religion, as well as the Mystery religions of the day. Same thing with a "progressive revelation" doctrine, to try to answer the question of why there are so many religions all saying different things in an age of global awareness on the rise. Baha'u'llah was not the only one doing that sort of thing in the context of the age he lived in. There were quite a number of prophets on the rise each trying to make sense of the emerging world as it was.

We have the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah to refer to so we do not need doctrines.

That doesn't make any sense. Doctrines being created and believed in has nothing to do with having the extant manuscripts. Doctrines are interpretations of the meanings of the writings, regardless if you have the originals or not.

When I say I do not know what God is thinking or doing I mean I do not know what God is thinking or doing, because God is unknowable.

But you seem to be confused still and didn't understand what I meant before. You are talking your rational mind not knowing something. God is not however "unknowable" with our being. We can very much know God with the soul and spirit, like the way a rose knows a warm spring rain.

This is something people in this age are often confused about. There are many different ways to know something, and the rational way is just one set of the many eyes we humans have. In this day and age, we tend to glorify the rational as the only "real" way. And that is nonsense. In fact, I'd call it the dullest of ways.

To quote from Albert Einstein,

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”​

That is different from saying I am out of tune with God for even if I was in tune with the Spirit of God I still could never know what an unknowable God is thinking.

Your heart would know. Then you just have to learn how to get your conscious mind to follow. This by the way, is why meditation is a vital practice. It teaches you how to hear and see with those eyes first as you set the seeking mind aside. Then the mind quitely learns to follow, and not try to lead all the time.

If God is conscious of His creation, has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, than in some sense God thinks, although not like a human, since God transcends all human limitations and forms:

I agree in that God's Mind; God's Will, etc, have nothing to do with God having cognitive thoughts, stringing together ideas in a linguist framework that creates mental objects for God to ponder and process the way a human brain does. The Mind of God to me is best understood as the Loving Intention of God's Being, his Essence, its Nature. If God has any "thought" it is singular, and that thought is Love. Grace. Compassion. But that "thought" and God's Being, are one and the same. To know God's Being, is to know God's Mind, and Will or Intent.

Shoghi Effendi writes: What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe.

I am unaware of any scientist or materialist that believe this, or at least never state it as a matter of science. I think this person is misinformed.

I agree God is infinite and as such there is no end to what understandings we can have of God but we will never know God’s Essence, not even Baha’u’llah, although He knows God in some way that is impossible for us to understand:

Well, then I know something more that Baha'u'llah does. I honestly don't see why anyone who has ostensibly had a mystical experience of God would say you can't know God's essence. It's not possible to rational define or explain this in a way that the cognitive mind can hold and comprehend, but as I said several times now, that is not the only way one knows something.

If you know God at all, you know God's essence. You do not need to know the totality of God with the rational mind, in order to know God's essence. In fact, I will say that to know the smallest "portion" of God, is to know all of God in that one sliver of Infinity. You can swallow the entire ocean, in a single swallow, as the Buddhists say.

I honestly do not know what this passage means, to attain the presence of God. I hope I will understand that better after I die.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

It sounds like he believed in reincarnation? But aside from this, I dislike the idea of "attaining" God's Presence. It's like saying I'm going to try to attain my lungs. You already have them. You just need to learn how to know them, rather than just ignoring them while they just do their thing.

Yes, I believe we God is closer to us than our life vein, which means we are closer to Him than we know. However, if we shut God out, God’s love cannot reach us. That is where I have an issue at times.

As does everyone. I've learned that God is always there just waiting for us to be done whatever else it is we are trying to do in ourselves to reach God. The instant we drop all that, then God is seen by us, and "he" was never anywhere but there the whole time. It's really just a matter of us choosing to open the faucet and let the Water flow. But alas, for some reason, we like to turn that faucet shut, thus depriving ourselves of God.

I associate suffering with God and thus it is difficult to love God.

That's interesting. I was just having a discussion a couple days ago with a Catholic friend of mine, and he said that is why he relates to Christ, because he shared in his suffering, thus bringing him closer to God. Maybe you should try Christianity?

 

[Trailblazer]

Helluva 1st post! & Welcome.

Forgive me for not going through the thread yet; I prefer to base my initial reaction on the original point ...

Well, well, well. Your ideas immediately put me in mind of a central conundrum I had/have ...

When I got interested in spirituality, it first seemed obvious that I would believe in a Christian-style God. It's in my culture. But I never got there.

See, for me, it is not logical to "choose" what you believe in. Which I guess means I am demanding some sort of evidence. And none of them Christians, or anyone else, has any actual evidence. Why believe? It's more like "hope", isn't it? To be perfectly honest, I've often pissed people off when I hear some flowery description of a "God experience", and say: That's one dumb reason to believe, isn't it? Plus, it's scientifically known that "revelatory" experiences are real, and frequent, and totally false, in our brains.

And yet, still even now, I have a sense of a "calling" from a God. Some weirdos have even told me I will meet God. To which I say: Fine. I'll wait here, and believe it when I see it. Is my thinking flawed?

And on top of all this, I have ALWAYS recognized and "envied" what believers get as a result of believing. Great, great post, my friend - do more like it - the big questions, for me.

Oh, and my Buddhism is a natural result of all this - I don't consider it religious in the slightest - more like psychology or philosophy. I don't understand reincarnation at all, and thus I'm comfortable to be labelled a "radical" Buddhist.

Martin

Glad you liked it. It was my first thread and I have not made any more since I can barely keep up with the threads I am posting on!

I do tend to pour out my thoughts and feelings. I am on a spiritual journey and forums like this one have helped me immensely because sharing and learning from others really helps me find myself. Hopefully I help others along the way because I believe it is more important to help others than myself. I already spent many years working on myself so I am in another phase of my life now. I still have my own spiritual journey which is never-ending but hopefully I can help others learn what I have learned…

You said you have a sense of a “calling” from a God so it sure sounds like you are on the right road.

I believe that everyone has the capacity to believe in God and I think it is logical to “choose” what you will believe in. That is one reason we have free will and an innate capacity to know God, but if people really want to believe in God they have to search for Him by looking for the evidence… It is all about the evidence because that is the only way anyone can know if God exists.There is no objective evidence because God is not an entity that can be found or seen in the material world. The only evidence God provides are the Messengers/Prophets that God chooses to represent Him, so we have to check them out to determine if they are from God or not.

Some people have God experiences and they find God that way but that is only evidence for them. Not all of us are tuned into to the God wavelength. We want cold hard evidence.

We never “meet God.” Jesus said that no man has ever seen God and Baha’u’llah said that God is beyond anything that can either be recounted or perceived. We cannot “know God” except through the Messengers God sends who manifest God’s attributes and reveal God’s will for the age in which they appear.

I do not believe in reincarnation at all so I would never make a good Buddhist. I see no reason why we would ever have to come back to this mortal world once we have died, that would be the worst punishment imaginable. The Baha’i Faith has about the coolest beliefs about the soul and the afterlife of any religion, and much more was revealed by Baha’u’llah than in any former religions. The soul and the afterlife are for the most part a mystery but at least we can know the function of the soul and have a general idea about the afterlife. There is no brochure however, so admittedly the whole idea is a bit frightening to me, as I like to know what the accommodations will be like and what I will be “doing” for all of eternity. Faith in God’s Promises is great but I am a detail-oriented person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ditto. Theological understandings, memorizing scriptures, following all the practices, pale by comparison in the face of firsthand personal experience. Once personal experience is added, everything one once believed is now taken in an entirely different light, with new a fuller meaning held within a fuller context. Without the context, it's all just glimmers of light poking through a little here and there.

But, why? This makes no sense at all to me. I would say, once again, this is that role-reversal, projecting that it is God withholding something from you, when it is in fact yourself holding God at bay. When you are ready, then you open the door. It's not God barring the door from you, but yourself barring yourself through, frankly, a lack of faith.

Yep. But yet, theologically you place limits on God in people's lives, saying things like "only" the prophets, not you." I find that very wrong, and a problem where one's religious beliefs become partly responsible for keeping someone limited in their spiritual awakening.

Any "prophet" that says you can't, "only I can", in some attempt to control their religion, creates a very real disservice to their sincere followers.

And once you are able to, then you can become a prophet too, sharing from the reservoir of your own personal insights into the nature and being of God.

Why? Who is it that decided this? That Light is available to all of humankind, without any withholding to anyone. This notion that God selects only one or two people to reveal himself to is nothing more than a projection of one's own realization of their shortcomings in this regard, and an excuse for themselves. "There are just something we aren't meant to understand," sorts of comments are a cop-out for one's own shortcomings. Don't blame God. Blame yourself, take responsibility, and grow.

Rather than deifying these prophets as god-like creatures, I realize that we actually can surpass them, as it should be. Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

Why does your religion place a glass ceiling on God, artificially placing its prophets at the top? Just repeating, 'that's just the way it is', is not addressing the very real question.

In Buddhist beliefs, we can be a Buddha ourselves. It's not limited to a class of people, which is a distinction you are making. I don't agree with that distinction. Do the Baha'i' limit the Buddha as someone separate and distinct from everyone else's potential, that only the Buddha, would be the Buddha? Buddhists themselves do not believe this. They believe we all have that Buddha nature, and it is just a matter of Realizing that.

You are one of the lucky ones. Not all of us are that fortunate. I do not believe that personal experiences can be ordered up like a burger at a restaurant.

Not to be contentious, but the “guidance” offered by Baha’u’llah is more than any one human could ever receive. I am talking about the teachings and the laws and those only come through Messengers which can be applied universally.

The reason God is not going to reveal to me what He revealed to Baha’u’llah is that I was not chosen because I do not meet the qualifications to receive and convey the knowledge of God. I am not special. For me to think I am that important that God would choose me to speak to would be rather arrogant.

So God is not withholding anything from me and I am not barring the door so God cannot get in. Speaking of barring, this is what Baha’u’llah wrote that He had no direct relationship to God, the “essence of all created things.” I do not believe that God speaks to anyone directly, not even the Messengers, and God only speaks to the Messengers through the Holy Spirit.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings, p. 4

I do not need to have had the God experiences those atheists had in order to believe they were real. I do not question that God communicates in some way to selected individuals, but God sure does not reveal an entire religion to them. The obvious reason God communicated to these atheists is because they were sincerely searching for God and God knew this was the best way to reach them at that time. God does not need to do that for me because I am already a firm believer. That makes logical sense.

So why does God not communicate to all atheists? The answer is quite simple. There was something “special” about those atheists, they were chosen in a sense, because they were sincere and deserving. Likewise, some people are guided by God to be Baha’is, and there is a mystery as to why. There are some hints though, such as these:

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 145

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

Those speak for themselves, no explanation is necessary.

I am not saying that people cannot have a spiritual awakening without a Prophet, but I see no conflict between spiritual awakening and religious beliefs. Many religious believers are very spiritually awake, so that is the evidence. Religious beliefs do not place limits on God, God sets the limits beyond which there is no passing. Have you ever heard of the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing”? The Manifestations of God stand on the All-Highest Throne, and they are the Tree beyond which there is no passing. That means they are the only way to access and know about God. They are the Luminaries of learning and wisdom that come from God in every age.

“The signs of God shine as manifest and resplendent as the sun amidst the works of His creatures. Whatsoever proceedeth from Him is apart, and will always remain distinguished, from the inventions of men. From the Source of His knowledge countless Luminaries of learning and wisdom have risen, and out of the Paradise of His Pen the breath of the All-Merciful hath continually been wafted to the hearts and souls of men. Happy are they that have recognized this truth.” Gleanings, p. 144

The Baha’i belief is really is no different than the Christian belief: John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Are both Christianity and the Baha’i Faith wrong? That is highly unlikely given all the spiritual truth that can be found in their respective scriptures.

A Prophet of God who says in so many words that only Prophets get a revelation from God is simply telling the truth that He received from God, and that truth is evidenced by the fact that nobody else ever has received a revelation from God. I do not see how that is an attempt to control anyone or how it is a disservice to the followers. The fact remains that we cannot be Prophets unless God chooses us to be a Prophet. That is just logical and it is the way it has been throughout the history of mankind.

Why would anyone would even want to be a Prophet, unless it they wanted a following? A person who has personal insights about God can share that with others without being a Prophet.

God decided that it is not possible for you to have more knowledge than a Manifestation of God such as Baha'u'llah, because God only reveals that knowledge to individuals who are chosen. They bring the Light and then the Light is available to all of mankind. God is omniscient so God knew who would be suitable to receive His revelation and convey it to humanity. The Writings of Baha’u’llah constitute 15,000 Tablets and for a period of years He wrote verses equivalent to the Qur’an in one day and night. Clearly, He was more than just a man, not that this is the only evidence.

What one might want to ask is why they think they can surpass a Prophet like Jesus or why they would even want to? Jesus taught humility. All the Great Prophets taught humility.

John 14:12 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”

That verse needs to be taken in context of that chapter. Jesus said that because He was leaving that His followers should do the work He had been doing and that together they could do greater works. There is a big difference in saying that one can do great works and saying that one can be a Prophet, receive a Revelation from God and mediate between God and man. John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

The reason that my religion places Prophets above ordinary humans is because God chose them and God placed them there. That is the best answer I can give. If people do not want to believe this they can choose not to. Baha’u’llah did not care who believed in Him. The question I have is why people would not want to believe in a Prophet if He indeed had information from God.

Obviously there is a difference between Buddhist beliefs and Baha’i beliefs. A big difference is that Buddhists do not even believe Buddha was a Prophet of God, they just believe he was a great teacher. So a student can learn enough to also be a great teacher. But a human cannot be a Prophet (Manifestation of God) because they were not chosen by God.

I do not think Christians believe they can be a Christ and they place Jesus on a level above an ordinary human. That does not preclude us being followers of the Light and manifesting the attributes of God. We just cannot receive and convey messages from God because only a Prophet can do so because Prophets have a third station we do not have. This explains the difference:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 151

 

[Trailblazer]

But the former is as much a "man-made doctrine" as the substitutionary atonement doctrine is. They are each simply a device for the enactment of faith - a symbol of faith in other words, which are not meant to be scrutinized too closely in order to remain effective. To believe in something is the key, and it has to make enough sense to be "believable" enough to function.

The blood sacrifice doctrine made plenty of sense back then, given the context of the age it was created against the backdrop of the Jewish religion, as well as the Mystery religions of the day. Same thing with a "progressive revelation" doctrine, to try to answer the question of why there are so many religions all saying different things in an age of global awareness on the rise. Baha'u'llah was not the only one doing that sort of thing in the context of the age he lived in. There were quite a number of prophets on the rise each trying to make sense of the emerging world as it was.

That doesn't make any sense. Doctrines being created and believed in has nothing to do with having the extant manuscripts. Doctrines are interpretations of the meanings of the writings, regardless if you have the originals or not.

But you seem to be confused still and didn't understand what I meant before. You are talking your rational mind not knowing something. God is not however "unknowable" with our being. We can very much know God with the soul and spirit, like the way a rose knows a warm spring rain.

This is something people in this age are often confused about. There are many different ways to know something, and the rational way is just one set of the many eyes we humans have. In this day and age, we tend to glorify the rational as the only "real" way. And that is nonsense. In fact, I'd call it the dullest of ways.

Your heart would know. Then you just have to learn how to get your conscious mind to follow. This by the way, is why meditation is a vital practice. It teaches you how to hear and see with those eyes first as you set the seeking mind aside. Then the mind quitely learns to follow, and not try to lead all the time.

Well, then I know something more that Baha'u'llah does. I honestly don't see why anyone who has ostensibly had a mystical experience of God would say you can't know God's essence. It's not possible to rational define or explain this in a way that the cognitive mind can hold and comprehend, but as I said several times now, that is not the only way one knows something.

If you know God at all, you know God's essence. You do not need to know the totality of God with the rational mind, in order to know God's essence. In fact, I will say that to know the smallest "portion" of God, is to know all of God in that one sliver of Infinity. You can swallow the entire ocean, in a single swallow, as the Buddhists say.

It sounds like he believed in reincarnation? But aside from this, I dislike the idea of "attaining" God's Presence. It's like saying I'm going to try to attain my lungs. You already have them. You just need to learn how to know them, rather than just ignoring them while they just do their thing.

As does everyone. I've learned that God is always there just waiting for us to be done whatever else it is we are trying to do in ourselves to reach God. The instant we drop all that, then God is seen by us, and "he" was never anywhere but there the whole time. It's really just a matter of us choosing to open the faucet and let the Water flow. But alas, for some reason, we like to turn that faucet shut, thus depriving ourselves of God.

That's interesting. I was just having a discussion a couple days ago with a Catholic friend of mine, and he said that is why he relates to Christ, because he shared in his suffering, thus bringing him closer to God. Maybe you should try Christianity?

Progressive revelation is not a man-made doctrine because it is clearly stated in the Writings of Baha’u’llah. Substitutionary atonement is not stated in the Bible; it was concocted by reading various verses and slapping them together to make a doctrine that men agreed upon. That is why it is man-made. Progressive revelation is not a symbol of faith; it is the core theology of the Baha’i Faith, its primary theological underpinning. If was revealed by Baha’u’llah and perhaps others picked up on it. Anyone can call themselves a prophet but Baha’u’llah was the only Prophet sent by God in this new age.

It is a Baha’i belief that the Coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah in 1844 ushered in a new age of humanity, beginning a whole new religious cycle. This new age is referred to as the Golden Age. This Golden Age of humanity will last for at least 500,000 years.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it...” The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117

The Bab and Baha’u’llah released the Holy Spirit released into the world stimulated the industrial revolution and all the new inventions and the scientific discovers took off. Along with that new religious movements sprung up.

1844 What hath God wrought?

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

Mere coincidence?

Doctrines are when the scriptures are interpreted to mean what is not expressly written in the scriptures and then taught by the religion.

Doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group.https://www.google.com

The interpretations of meanings of Baha’u’llah’s Writings by His appointed interpreters (Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi) are not doctrines, they are explanations of what Baha’u’llah meant. Baha’u’llah gave them the authority to interpret His Writings by virtue of His Covenant that passed down succession of authority. The Christian religion had no such covenant so it was just men who took it upon themselves to create these Church doctrines. There Church doctrines do not accurately represent what Jesus said, as do the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Christians might argue that they do but that can be torn to shreds. For one example, Jesus never said He was God, so that Church doctrine came about as a misunderstanding of Bible verses.

God is knowable to some people with their being, but by virtue of having scriptures that everyone can understand God is made knowable to everyone. Moreover, nobody can know all of what was revealed in scriptures “with their being.” God gave us all a rational mind to use. I do not consider that dull. Not everyone can relate to God the way you do and that is the salient point… God needs to be accessible to everyone, not just a selected few mystical people. To say that everyone can do it is just not logical because everyone has different capacities. However, everyone can read or be read to.

Speaking of mysticism, the Baha’i Faith is a very mystical religion. Some Baha’is are more mystical than others, but Baha’is are enjoined to walk the mystical path with practical feet. Baha’u’llah’s most mystical work is called The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys.

I know all about meditation and most Baha’is meditate as we are enjoined to do so although it is not a law. But even with being “in tune” with God in meditation, I still could never know what an unknowable God is thinking, even if I might imagine I do.

You might be defining Essence differently than I do, but it is a Baha’i belief that we cannot ever know God’s Essence. We can only know God’s Attributes and God’s Will through what Manifestations of God reflect and reveal:

This passage is referring to the Essence of God as a mystery:

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.” Gleanings, pp. 165-166

I do not know what “attaining the presence of God” means. There are many mystical things in Bahaullah’s Writings which I do not fully understand. No, Baha’is do not believe in reincarnation. Once our body dies and our soul departs from this world it never comes back. In brief, this is what we believe:

"With regard to the soul of man. According to the Bahá'í Teachings the human soul starts with the formation of the human embryo, and continues to develop and pass through endless stages of existence after its separation from the body. Its progress is thus infinite."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 31, 1937)

"Concerning the future life, what Bahá'u'lláh says is that the soul will continue to ascend through many worlds. What those worlds are and what their nature is we cannot know. The same way that the child in the matrix cannot know this world so we cannot know what the other world is going to be."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 18, 1932)
Lights of Guidance (second part)

I agree that God is always there waiting. That is the point of this Hidden Word:

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

There are various and sundry reasons why people turn off the God water faucet, or never turn it on. I think the primary reason for most people is that they are too attached to the worldly things and the heart cannot be divided between world and God. That is not an issue I have.I know what my reasons are but they are rather personal.

The issue I have with God and suffering goes much deeper than you know. No religion is going to resolve it, not even the explanations given for suffering in the Baha’i Faith. Nor is there any magic wand that God holds.

 

[kaat]

Okay, I am truly sorry. Just tell me you folks are really serious about all this, and that I shouldn't mock it, and I'll go away. Otherwise, well, it's more fun than taking candy from a baby.

 

[kaat]

You are one of the lucky ones. Not all of us are that fortunate. I do not believe that personal experiences can be ordered up like a burger at a restaurant.

Not to be contentious, but the “guidance” offered by Baha’u’llah is more than any one human could ever receive. I am talking about the teachings and the laws and those only come through Messengers which can be applied universally.

The reason God is not going to reveal to me what He revealed to Baha’u’llah is that I was not chosen because I do not meet the qualifications to receive and convey the knowledge of God. I am not special. For me to think I am that important that God would choose me to speak to would be rather arrogant.

So God is not withholding anything from me and I am not barring the door so God cannot get in. Speaking of barring, this is what Baha’u’llah wrote that He had no direct relationship to God, the “essence of all created things.” I do not believe that God speaks to anyone directly, not even the Messengers, and God only speaks to the Messengers through the Holy Spirit.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings, p. 4

I do not need to have had the God experiences those atheists had in order to believe they were real. I do not question that God communicates in some way to selected individuals, but God sure does not reveal an entire religion to them. The obvious reason God communicated to these atheists is because they were sincerely searching for God and God knew this was the best way to reach them at that time. God does not need to do that for me because I am already a firm believer. That makes logical sense.

So why does God not communicate to all atheists? The answer is quite simple. There was something “special” about those atheists, they were chosen in a sense, because they were sincere and deserving. Likewise, some people are guided by God to be Baha’is, and there is a mystery as to why. There are some hints though, such as these:

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p. 145

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings, pp. 266-267

Those speak for themselves, no explanation is necessary.

I am not saying that people cannot have a spiritual awakening without a Prophet, but I see no conflict between spiritual awakening and religious beliefs. Many religious believers are very spiritually awake, so that is the evidence. Religious beliefs do not place limits on God, God sets the limits beyond which there is no passing. Have you ever heard of the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing”? The Manifestations of God stand on the All-Highest Throne, and they are the Tree beyond which there is no passing. That means they are the only way to access and know about God. They are the Luminaries of learning and wisdom that come from God in every age.

“The signs of God shine as manifest and resplendent as the sun amidst the works of His creatures. Whatsoever proceedeth from Him is apart, and will always remain distinguished, from the inventions of men. From the Source of His knowledge countless Luminaries of learning and wisdom have risen, and out of the Paradise of His Pen the breath of the All-Merciful hath continually been wafted to the hearts and souls of men. Happy are they that have recognized this truth.” Gleanings, p. 144

The Baha’i belief is really is no different than the Christian belief: John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” Are both Christianity and the Baha’i Faith wrong? That is highly unlikely given all the spiritual truth that can be found in their respective scriptures.

A Prophet of God who says in so many words that only Prophets get a revelation from God is simply telling the truth that He received from God, and that truth is evidenced by the fact that nobody else ever has received a revelation from God. I do not see how that is an attempt to control anyone or how it is a disservice to the followers. The fact remains that we cannot be Prophets unless God chooses us to be a Prophet. That is just logical and it is the way it has been throughout the history of mankind.

Why would anyone would even want to be a Prophet, unless it they wanted a following? A person who has personal insights about God can share that with others without being a Prophet.

God decided that it is not possible for you to have more knowledge than a Manifestation of God such as Baha'u'llah, because God only reveals that knowledge to individuals who are chosen. They bring the Light and then the Light is available to all of mankind. God is omniscient so God knew who would be suitable to receive His revelation and convey it to humanity. The Writings of Baha’u’llah constitute 15,000 Tablets and for a period of years He wrote verses equivalent to the Qur’an in one day and night. Clearly, He was more than just a man, not that this is the only evidence.

What one might want to ask is why they think they can surpass a Prophet like Jesus or why they would even want to? Jesus taught humility. All the Great Prophets taught humility.

John 14:12 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.”

That verse needs to be taken in context of that chapter. Jesus said that because He was leaving that His followers should do the work He had been doing and that together they could do greater works. There is a big difference in saying that one can do great works and saying that one can be a Prophet, receive a Revelation from God and mediate between God and man. John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

The reason that my religion places Prophets above ordinary humans is because God chose them and God placed them there. That is the best answer I can give. If people do not want to believe this they can choose not to. Baha’u’llah did not care who believed in Him. The question I have is why people would not want to believe in a Prophet if He indeed had information from God.

Obviously there is a difference between Buddhist beliefs and Baha’i beliefs. A big difference is that Buddhists do not even believe Buddha was a Prophet of God, they just believe he was a great teacher. So a student can learn enough to also be a great teacher. But a human cannot be a Prophet (Manifestation of God) because they were not chosen by God.

I do not think Christians believe they can be a Christ and they place Jesus on a level above an ordinary human. That does not preclude us being followers of the Light and manifesting the attributes of God. We just cannot receive and convey messages from God because only a Prophet can do so because Prophets have a third station we do not have. This explains the difference:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 151

WOW! How many eons have you spent interpreting your way to .... this?