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The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152
Are you familiar with the Buddhist doctrine of the Trikaya, or the three body doctrine? This is very much an attempt to parallel that. In fact, the hypostatic union is along similar lines to explain these different modes of being, or "stations". Trikaya - Wikipedia

I do not believe any human has a divine nature; we have a physical nature (body) and a human nature (soul). Only God has God’s nature.
I was talking in my last post about this radical dualism of the Baha'i. If God is God, and that means God is Infinite in Being, that means there is nothing that can possibly be outside God. If there was, then there is somewhere God is not. If God is not somewhere, then God cannot be Infinite. God cannot be omnipresent if things exist outside God. This is problem a strict dualistic idea of God cannot reconcile. The only way to reconcile it would be to remove Infinity from God and make God a god, a being, an entity out there somewhere.

The Mormons do this, by placing God in outer space relatively near the planet Kolob in the constellation Beetlejuice. The "Throne of God" is seen as a literal object in space somewhere, and not seen as a metaphor for majesty. I am assuming the Baha'i' don't resort to that sort of fantasy and literalism in order to deal with these sorts of problems of terms one runs into a strict dualistic system of thought when dealing with the nature of the Infinite Being of God? Then how do you deal with something existing "outside" of Infinity? How does God remain Infinite?

I do not believe that I kicked Jesus upstairs; I think that Jesus came down from upstairs, since His soul was preexistent in the spiritual realm before His body was born on earth.
Which is exactly what Alan Watts rightly complained about. This notion of coming down from heaven with the message of Truth fully intact, that baby Jesus turned clay birds into real birds, that baby Buddha had lotus blossoms spring up in his footfalls, and all of that, while great mythologies to inspire the imagination, also makes them non-human. Something no one can relate to. "Follow me", as Jesus said, becomes empty words and promises. We can never hope to be "like him", because he is a god-like creature of our mythologies that is unlike us.

I like instead this image, "And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." If Christ is the Manifestation of God, and we are being transformed into his image......................

In that pre-existence His soul was given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God. No ordinary human has that ability and that is what differentiates us from Them.
But yet, I did. I just don't mythologize it with all these trappings of god-like beings from other worlds. I understand this in a very different light, one which I find is actually far more beautiful and hopeful then reifying them into these sort of terms.

I do not believe that God is in anyone, not even in Jesus. That is a Christian belief.
It is actual Jesus' belief too, as well as other authors of the NT. Referring to "Christ in you the hope of Glory", the Spirit in you, and so forth. It is also a Hindu belief. It is also a Buddhist belief (just subbing "Buddha Nature" for God). And so forth.

Again, ordinary humans can potentially reflect God’s attributes, Manifestations of God perfectly reflect God’s attributes and manifest God to humanity, but both are forever separate from God.
And thus God ceases to be Infinite and Omnipresent, reduced to a deity like the gods of Olympus.


There is a wall between us and God in the sense that there is a point beyond which there is no passing...
Again, then God is not Infinite, but finite, like us, only bigger and more powerful, like Super-Superman. Right?

This is the problem we run into when we anthropomorphize Divinity. It creates an image of God that looks just like us, only a lot bigger, like the gods of Olympus. I'm not sure how this problem can be gotten around, without being forced to make God into a god.

I do not believe we can ever be united with the divine because that implies that we can be on the same level with God, a “partner” with God.
Yet Jesus expressly prayed that we all would be united with God as he was. I for one most certainly have experienced this Unity with God. But it doesn't make "me", this human vessel, Divinity. As I said, it is this dual nature of all of us that we can look at the flesh and see its finiteness, yet in touching the Eternal within us, as is in all the world, we realize that we are not separate from God in the least. Not one part of us.

The only thing that creates "separation" is perception. Our awareness of who we are. This is something the great mystics of all ages come to realize when they pass beyond that veil of illusion, your "tree" you can't move past. The reality is however, we can. I have. And if lowly 'ole me can, we all can. I would be saddened for someone to make a diety out of me in their myths, as it would make me seem impossibly beyond them. And I certainly am not.

Baha’is believe that God is forever separate from His Creation and that differs from Christian belief, since Christians believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of them and that they are God’s Children who have a relationship with God, like being part of a God’s family. How do you think anyone can have a “relationship” with an entity that is incomprehensible, exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived?
With the eyes of Spirit, God is not beyond our Knowing. This spirit to Spirit is called Gnosis. I've said this before, that the incomprehensibleness of God, is approaching God with the eyes of reason, the eyes of mind. The eye of Spirit however, can see. I saw, and see. But I do not comprehend with my mind, as that is not the right set of eyes with which to see God.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192
This betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of Divinity. There are no "two Gods". There is only God, and nothing is outside God, including us.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand about the atheists throwing out the baby (God) with the bath water (religion) and I have used this analogy many times. What they are rejecting is not God as much as it is the ideas about God that come from religious beliefs. The problem is, that is where ideas about God come from; more specifically revelation from God to Messengers which becomes religious scripture is the only way to know anything about God. This is my position and the position of all Baha’is. It is illogical to imagine there is any other way to know about God because anything we might imagine is coming from us; so unless God revealed a message to us, there would be no way for us to know anything about God.
And yet, I had two profound experiences of what anyone would call God before I had religion tell me about God. In fact, it was because of those experiences I sought out religion to help me understand. What they presented, in large part, was quite far off the mark. So, I had the words of "authorities", and their claims of prophets telling you about God. Yet, deep within my heart, that gentle, yet insistent voice made clear to me they were not speaking from the place of the Knowledge of God, which can only be truly known by personal experience, not "a sure word", so called. That "sure word" without experience, becomes a projection of one's own ignorance of God.

As I said, I came to hear that voice resonating the psalmist, "I know more than all my teachers". What I was taught, only confused me because it was supposed to be true, and I should trust it, but it violated the most assured, deepest possible experience of God that one could hope for. Again, all of that happened without a preacher, without teaching, without knowledge of religious beliefs, none of that. It happened. I knew enough about God without them, to know they didn't know.

It all goes back to that message. Anyone can imagine anything about God but the fact that different people imagine different things is enough to know that they cannot all be right, because that is logically impossible if what they believe about God is contradictory. By contrast, if we really understand scriptures, there is no contradiction between the ways God is described, which is a good reason to believe all scriptures were revealed by God, One God.
It's not the scriptures that tell you about God. Those 40,000 some Christian denominations all have their prophets too, and yet, they obviously believe contradictory things, all using the same scriptures.

I am a bit lost now. What I am able to parse out is that there is nothing supernatural about Prophets?
The Reality that those who touch into the Depths of the Divine is always there, for any of us to dip into and taste, in however we can. Those who dip deeper are just products of this Fabric of Reality, of Life who through whatever confluence of streams in their lives bring them to this, stand out to us as "special", as a "gift from God". That "specialness", that idea of "chosen" is from our human perspective against a backdrop of natural occurrences. If the right moment came in your life through years of events that put you in a position to "receive" (what I call simply being opened), this is not because you were "chosen" out of the pack by God to be special, to be a preordained voice of his, like a demi-god from eternity (the myth of prophets), but that you just happened to respond.

That "gift" was not for them, but for everyone. They and many others like them, just had the good fortune to encounter it, and for that, they should be seen as humbled people, not exalted above other humans, sent down from God to show us the way. This is why I rebuff this claim that these prophets should be viewed as above us. It's the opposite of what we should understand of them. We should honor them for their sacrifice of their lives in order to Know God and their willingness to talk of it and share. Don't deify them. Don't view them as "unlike" you. See them instead as showing the way for your to follow, where you can be as they. I like to say, it's better to call Jesus brother, than to call him Lord. There's a very real reason why I say this, and you're hearing some of that in here.

What I am able to parse out from this is that you think God is a deist God that does not have a personal nature, a mind or a will of His own, and does not interact with humanity.
Nope. I'm not a deist. I'm a nondualist. I view God as both impersonal and personal. I believe God interacts with all of creation as it is an expression of God's very Being in all things. What I do not believe is God being a big version of humans, caring about this or that current human event, sending special angels or prophets to fix stuff for us. Those that do speak out, can in fact be speaking from that Wellspring of Life, as I've referred to having drunk of myself. But it's not "God's ideas" about what to do, but our own, inspired by that Light that is Eternal Love.

Filled with that in your cup, then your true creative will takes That and pours it forth out of yourself in your understanding of the world as a human being. It's not supernatural, even though it rightly can and should be called, extraordinary and gifted, visionary, and so forth. This is our potential as humans. It's is something that given the right confluence of streams, is the potential of all of us. And that to me, is the Will of God.

Thanks for sharing that awesome experience. :D It sounds more like an NDE experience than a life experience. :)
Actually, that was an experience of nonduality. My first experience prior to that actually did mirror an NDE. I didn't share that one. In that, there was nothing but Light as all time ceased. Infinite Mind, infinite Love, Infinite Grace, Infinite Power, Infinite Knowing, all why seemed but a tiny sliver of Infinity, which was Infinity in itself, with an Infinity of Infinities beyond this.

Then there was life review, where I saw my whole life flash before me with this Knowledge imparted to me that I was never alone. That this Infinite Love that held me like a fragile robin's egg in the Power of its infinite hand was never anywhere but right there the whole time I thought I was alone. When I found myself "back here" again, rivers of tears came flooding out of me, washing away in a torrent all the pain and fear I held within me. It was a couple weeks later that other experience happened as I was walking along outside, trying to process what had happened to me before.

I hope you realize that is not going to happen to everyone, or hardly anyone.
Yes, I do realize that. And in my mind, that does not make me more special, or "above" others. It makes me "fortunate" on one front, and cursed on another. :) It comes with a price. I was left with an unquenchable thirst that religion offered trinkets of beliefs instead of actual guidance of those who knew the way home, having been there themselves. I lost my way for decades trying to find my way Home to begin to dip my cup into that Eternal Wellspring again as before.

That is one reason religion is necessary for the majority of people to have a connection to God, but also so we can know the will of God that comes through revelation.
I want to pick this thought up in another post a little later. There's a lot I'd like to say about it and need to take a break from typing.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is one reason religion is necessary for the majority of people to have a connection to God, but also so we can know the will of God that comes through revelation.
Alight, I'll pick up on this now that I have a little more headspace to focus on this point. Is religion necessary for the majority of people to have a connection to God? I'll try to argue both sides of this to see where it lands.

First, as with most everything there is a tradeoff. Things come at a price. Sometimes that price is worth it, other times it's too costly. At a certain point in one's life, it may be worth it and bring benefit when there is a certain lack, and at another point it may become a hindrance. Let's not forget that even though I had had a direct experience of the Divine, which it was, I ended up seeking out religion to help me know what to do with that. Let me explain why I did, and where that comes to support your position here to a certain extent.

Structures. Frameworks. Religions provide a structure to take faith and spiritual experience and gives us a place to hang the ornaments of Spirit upon. While spiritual experience transcends rational thought, our thinking, reasoning minds which we use to help us navigate the world with, needs to have some way to examine and think about these things in order to help us translate experience into ideas. Experiences themselves are without words, but in order to think about them after the fact, we need a language to look to and use to make sense of them, towards the goal of integrating experience into the collective whole of who we are, body, mind, soul, and spirit.

However, when it comes to spiritual experience, too much rational thought can squelch it. Theologies, doctrines, authoritative "revelations" which are not to be questioned, and so forth, easily become shackles on the legs and around the neck of the spiritual aspirant. While some guidance by Masters is necessary to keep the spiritual novice from known pitfalls, such as the ego co opting spiritual experience and turning it into spiritual pride as an extension of the ego, too much dependence on them will lead to a lack of growth, which by definition requires one's own personal exploration. For instance, some "authority" may tell you, "If you doubt the teachings of the Prophet, you are opening the door to Satan to deceive you and steal your faith." That is a perfect, and absolutely treacherous way to hinder what is necessary for true integration. If you cannot make it your own through your own experience, then that faith is the "faith" of someone else.

On the plus side, religion can introduce someone to God, and the negative, it can prevent them from truly realizing God. When I hear your theology stating unequivocally that Unity with God is not possible, I hear a massive hinderance laid at the feet of the followers of the Baha'i' religion. The effect that would have on someone, like myself, who in fact have directly experienced this, multiple times, would be to steal and deprive them of that Light based upon some mistaken rationalized notion and giving it Absolute Authority over another's own Realization. Tragic, doesn't come close to describing the injustice against the soul of another I hear in this.

I know this from personal experience through the religion I became part of following my experiences. Finally, I had to let that Truth that was "encountered" (a much better word than "revealed"), take the lead over the teachings of the "revelation" that they used to prop up their own projections of their own egos. I had to listen to Truth, even though rationally at the time I had no way to argue my point theologically or metaphysically, or anything other than to say, "I know in my heart, what they say isn't so". Time and experience has proven this true, and I have been able to grow, and continue to grow, pushing my way thought into uncharted territory for myself. I have discovered however, a host of others who have done the same, long before me, so I'm far from alone.

So religion can take some basics to help inspire people to seek God through symbolism, through teachings, etc. And hopefully, that spark of faith in the individual will be ignited and they pursue their path using the structures of the religion to help themselves navigate that world. I heard someone say recently, that "In order to see God everywhere, you first have to see Him somewhere". I think that is very wise. But when religion places barriers at the feet of God and tells the aspirant, "Only Jesus or our prophet could go further, but not you and me", I cry foul to the very heights of heaven itself. Why would anyone say that, other then to maintain control over them, when experience shows that is false?

I get the need to keep discipline and control, but when it prevents growth, that is no longer serving God, but the religion for the religion's sake alone. "Beyond here lay dragons! Go no further! Only the supernatural beings of our religion symbols could do that. Stay put! Stay here. Let us teach you, and you will be safe." I've learned there is a very, very fine, less than a hair's width line between serving God, and serving the ego. Religion, because it speaks of God, can and does easily deceive itself this way.

The primary attribute of God, which is Love, was manifested to you, so because you had that experience you realized you did not need religion to gain near access to God.
But as I pointed out just now above, that is not true. I sought out religion to help me understand and grow that experience. I need to also correct something you said here, that the Love "was manifested to me". It was in that first experience, I mentioned last night which I hadn't shared before. But in that second experience, I became that Love. It was not manifest from outside to me, it poured forth out of me from the Deep, from the Wellspring of Life itself into all of Creation. The word Exchange is the best word I can hope to find to describe that. It was "from everything, to everything, through everything". That Stream of Exchange of the Divine flowed out of me, as well as everything, like the solar flares of the sun. Indescribable, but I try. ;)

But that does not mean everyone can do that.
Another correction here. I did not "do that". Life did that. I did not of any effort of my own "achieve" or attain, or produce anything at all. All I did, was nothing. I just was in the right place that I let it happen. I "allowed" it.

The question is, can that happen to anyone? I would say yes, we all have that already within us, fully. But not everyone is in a place for those floodgates to just open as they did for me at that time in my life under those circumstances. Again, this is absolutely nothing one "achieves" or does to get. It is simply who we all already are, and I just happened to have that window of the soul fly open to allow Spirit to flow through me and become me. I like to put it this way, we all are already fully Enlightened, but we're just not enlightened to the fact of that yet.

How and for whatever reason you had your experience is a mystery of God.
Actually, I have a lot of ideas of why that happened I could share, but that would take to much time. :) It's not a "mystery of God", in the sense that God "chose" to give me that and I can't reason God's choices. As I've said before, it's fully available to all of us at all times by virtue of being the Creation of God. Confluences of many streams is a good way to begin to talk about it. Peak experiences generally have some deep, hidden, underlying reasons within us that open us to these.

You yourself said “I felt unspeakable joy, and love, and compassion for them. Not pity, but a certain sadness and confusion of how they could not see or experience what they were and what the world is.”

Likewise, I feel unspeakable joy to have recognized the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but you can no more understand why than I can understand why you feel joy from your personal experience. I also feel sadness that not everyone can recognize Baha’u’llah because I believe that what He revealed IS the Will of God, and this has great implications for individuals and humanity collectively. Moreover, the biggest implications for individuals won’t be fully known until after we die physically.
Why is it I am getting the feeling you are wishing to compare your experiences with mine, such as saying in effect, "I've had something similar too"? I would never share what I did with you to say I'm better or more spiritual than you. The second I'd do that, is the second I'm not, as that would be the ego puffing itself up. The only reason I shared that was to give context to the subsequent thoughts I have about these topics we're discussing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now onto nonduality. I have a very clear idea that how your religion views God is firmly dualistic. This means that everything is distinctly different from one another. I am me, and you are you. Humans are humans, and God is God. God is Creator, and creation is an object outside of God. This and not that. We are all separate from one another, and separate from God. This is not how I perceive this.
I did read everything you wrote and it is a lot to digest, but I am gathering that the main point you are trying to make is that we are not separate from God, that we are not different.

I agree that we are not completely different from God because we were made in the image of God so we have the potential to reflect the Attributes of God; for example, Good, Love, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Forgiving. However, there are some of God’s Attributes that no human has: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Immaterial. Please note that the Prophets/Messengers of God perfectly reflect the first set of Attributes, but none of the second set of Attributes.

In short, the Attributes of God humans cannot have are what separates humans from God in the sense of making God different and distinct from us, conveyed in this passage:

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

Rather than getting into all the details you posted I want to focus on the main point you were leading up to, the hypostatic union...
So the theological concept of the hypostatic union is non-problematic in understanding, not just the Nature of Jesus, but also of our own. To understand what Jesus was, is to understand what we are.
According to the Christian doctrine of the hypostatic union Jesus was fully God and fully man. Are you saying that you believe that Jesus was fully God and that all other humans can also be like Jesus and thus be fully God and fully man?

Question: "What is the hypostatic union?"
Answer:
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
https://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html
What is the hypostatic union?

There are really no words to convey how I feel when I read this. Jesus was not God. In short, I consider it sheer blasphemy to equate God with a man, and here is the Baha’i position on this:

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

At this juncture, I think it is best that you read what I posted today on the “That darned trinity” thread:

#46 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 11:32 PM
#55 Trailblazer, Today at 1:14 PM
#56 Trailblazer, Today at 1:48 PM

Meanwhile, I have been struggling to get to all your posts and I will, I just have had a lot of “real world” things to juggle and also I keep getting hit by more and more new posts... and I just keep saying, just one more short one. :) I want to be sure I have time to give yours my undivided attention because they do require more thought than most others. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Windwalker...

I guess I am still not grasping what you mean by dualistic and I am not sure that is really the Baha’i stance.

Dualism: the division of something conceptually into two opposed or contrasted aspects, or the state of being so divided. https://www.google.com/search

Baha’is do not divide God and man up into opposing aspects. We simply say we cannot be partners with God or part of God.

You said “God is Infinite in Being, that means there is nothing that can possibly be outside God.” If nothing that can possibly be outside God which would mean that humans are inside of God. That is true in the sense that God can encompass us but we cannot encompass God.

Infinite: limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God" https://www.google.com/search

God is infinite but humans are finite, which is why we cannot ever grasp the intrinsic nature of God. Knowledge of the Essence of God is outside of reach for humans because God is infinite (beyond everything that can either be recounted or perceived) so our finite minds cannot ever grasp the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God.

Baha’is believe that God is omnipresent, just as Christians believe. However, we also believe that knowledge of God is inaccessible to humans, except via the Manifestations of God. Jesus confirms this:

John 14:6 Jesus told him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

So when Christians think God speaks to them directly via the indwelt Holy Spirit I cannot believe that. That originated with Paul. The Holy Spirit is only sent directly to Manifestations of God and we get it indirectly from them manifesting it into the world.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This was taken literally when it was not meant to be taken literally... God in your body does not mean God literally lives in anyone’s body. It means your body and your spirit belong to God, so glorify God with them.

We are made in the image and likeness of God thus we can be like Jesus or God but we cannot be the same as Jesus or God because they occupy a station that is above the ordinary human station. That is why Jesus said nobody could come to the Father but by Him and that He was in the bosom of the Father. This verse is speaking about Jesus before he came to Earth and his relationship with God (his Father). The phase "in the bosom” conveys the eternal intimate communion between the Father and Son. Only a Manifestation of God can have that. An ordinary man cannot have that.

With all due respect, anyone can believe they received a revelation from God, but I do not believe that any human can have direct intercourse with God; inspiration or some kind of spiritual experience is not a revelation. Not even the Manifestations of God got direct communication from God; it came through the Holy Spirit.

As I said above, I do not believe God or the Holy Spirit literally resides in peoples’ bodies; I do not care what religions teach this, I would never believe in a religion that is that irrational.

God does not cease to be Infinite and Omnipresent, reduced to a deity like the gods of Olympus simply because God is not directly accessible to humans. In fact, it is the opposite because any God that was accessible to finite humans would cease to be Infinite. I think we are using the word Infinite to mean different things. ;)

If God is not bigger and more powerful than humans then God is not God. By being partners with that God we are bringing God down to our level, or is it that some people want to raise themselves up to that level? I do not understand why anyone would want to be on God’s level. :confused:

Do you think that we should be able to approach and know an Almighty God, the God that created the entire universe, the heavens and the earth? Put another way, why should an Almighty God make Himself accessible and fully known to the humans He created? This is a Christian belief and it makes no sense to me. It is touchy-feely and it feels all warm and fuzzy but it is irrational and illogical. :rolleyes:

I cannot say what Jesus meant when He prayed we would be united with God. The same words can mean different things to different people. There is nothing in the Baha'i Writings that says we should strive to be separate from God, in fact nearness to God is what is defined as heaven, both in this world and the next; and distance from God is defined as hell. God wants our hearts so if we are not near to God, God cannot have our hearts. :) What stands in between us and the world is love for worldly things, which is related to self and desire. Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow Him and deny self (Matthew 16:24-26).

“Thou art God’s shadow on earth. Strive, therefore, to act in such a manner as befitteth so eminent, so august a station. If thou dost depart from following the things We have caused to descend upon thee and taught thee, thou wilt, assuredly, be derogating from that great and priceless honor. Return, then, and cleave wholly unto God, and cleanse thine heart from the world and all its vanities, and suffer not the love of any stranger to enter and dwell therein. Not until thou dost purify thine heart from every trace of such love can the brightness of the light of God shed its radiance upon it, for to none hath God given more than one heart. This, verily, hath been decreed and written down in His ancient Book. And as the human heart, as fashioned by God, is one and undivided, it behoveth thee to take heed that its affections be, also, one and undivided. Cleave thou, therefore, with the whole affection of thine heart, unto His love, and withdraw it from the love of any one besides Him, that He may aid thee to immerse thyself in the ocean of His unity, and enable thee to become a true upholder of His oneness. God is My witness. My sole purpose in revealing to thee these words is to sanctify thee from the transitory things of the earth, and aid thee to enter the realm of everlasting glory, that thou mayest, by the leave of God, be of them that abide and rule therein….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 237-238


Prayer and meditation are one way that people get close to God but one must also sacrifice that which comes in between them and God.

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 275

When I say there is a Tree beyond which we cannot pass it is in this context. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.

128. the Sadratu’l-Muntahá # 100
Literally “the furthermost Lote-Tree”, translated by Shoghi Effendi as “the Tree beyond which there is no passing”. This is used as a symbol in Islám, for example in the accounts of Muḥammad’s Night Journey, to mark the point in the heavens beyond which neither men nor angels can pass in their approach to God, and thus to delimit the bounds of divine knowledge as revealed to mankind. Hence it is often used in the Bahá’í Writings to designate the Manifestation of God Himself. (See also note 164.) The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. p. 220

164. the sacred Lote-Tree # 148
“The “sacred Lote-Tree” is a reference to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” (see note 128). It is used here symbolically to designate Bahá’u’lláh.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. p. 236


Clearly the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” is the boundary of knowledge we can have about God and means we cannot know more about God than is revealed by the Manifestations of God.

You said: “I saw, and see. But I do not comprehend with my mind, as that is not the right set of eyes with which to see God.” No, we do not comprehend with our mind but rather with our heart... that is why Baha’u’llah wrote:

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Trailblazer said:
“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

You said: “This betrays a lack of understanding of the nature of Divinity. There are no "two Gods". There is only God, and nothing is outside God, including us.” So are we inside of God, or is God inside of us? The reference to two Gods is a warning not to think we can be equal to God, on the same level as God, like a partner with God, because God is without peer or equal. :)[/QUOTE]
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Windwalker...

I guess I am still not grasping what you mean by dualistic and I am not sure that is really the Baha’i stance.

Dualism: the division of something conceptually into two opposed or contrasted aspects, or the state of being so divided. https://www.google.com/search

Baha’is do not divide God and man up into opposing aspects. We simply say we cannot be partners with God or part of God.
I think it is correct we focus on this single point, as so much of everything else I speak of comes from this fundamental understanding. It isn't something easily grasped, so don't feel bad if you struggle to understand it. You certainly would not be alone. I myself can't rationally grasp it either. But if I can present it such a way that it makes sense, then kudos to me. ;)

The definition above is fairly accurate, but needs further explanation. It's not about exact opposites, but rather about dividing between one thing and another thing, making things separate from one another. I am me because I am distinctly different from you. We are not "opposites" per se, such as light vs dark, but we perceive ourselves as separate from each other as a matter of defining reality. In fact, to put a fine point on it, we actually define ourselves in these terms of "this and not-that". The definition from our minds, becomes reality to us, and we become that reality we perceive to be.

So dualism is a perception of distinctions we use to define reality. We define truth and reality in these terms of distinctions. Dualism places boundaries around objects, and also makes a distinction between the subject, the one perceiving, and the object, the thing perceived.

So, naturally, dualism when applied to the subject's, your perception of God, God becomes an object existing outside of you. God is separate, because God is "not-me". God is always seen as 'outside' of you, because the dualistic mind sees everything it perceives in these terms.

But what is really being separated? Who is this "I" that perceives? What is this "God" that is perceived as "Other"?

Traditional theism, which is what I hear being expressed within what you are sharing, is firmly dualistic in nature. God exists outside of us. Creation is "other" to God. God's existence is defined in contrast to other existences, like you were to define your existence in contrast with my existence. God is infinite, we are finite, therefore not-same. Traditional Christianity is also very much this way.

In traditional theism, God is perceived as "wholly transcendent", save for occasional punching of a hole though into this world via miraculous means, i.e, the prophets or 'miracles'. To find God in this dualistic system, you look "upwards" to the heavens and those who proclaim heaven's truth to earth through human messengers. What Light pours forth from "above" comes "down" into us as separate creatures from this Source. (I'm sure you agree with this).

Then you have pantheism, which I assume you have some familiarity with? By contrast, rather than God being wholly transcendent, as in theism, God is wholly immanent. Meaning, God is not other to creation, but is fully non-separate from creation itself. Everything is One, of the same substance, or essence. Everything is God. This perception of reality is known as monism, where distinctions of this and not-that are attempted to be done away with by making everything the "same".

As a brief addition here, which I can explain in greater depth later, I'll mention panentheism. Panentheism brings these two seeming opposites together by seeing God as both "wholly transcendent" and "wholly immanent" at the same time. This of course, paradoxical in nature. In a dualistic system of thought, you can't be both fully not-here and fully here at the same time.

This appears to us to be violation of the rules of logic and reason and our uses of language, which is to be expected. But it is not seen as a problem within a nondualist view. Now, while a panentheistic view of God does not define nonduality per se, it seems to work nicely when one is choosing to speak of God in terms of what God "is" within that framework, as opposed to approaching God as what God is "not", i.e, not man, not creation, and so forth. (too complex to explain more here).

Now to again mention dualism (theism) and monism (pantheism), while monism appears to get rid of dualism by making everything One, it actually is subtly another form of dualism. It is because it divides reality from non-reality, saying the perception of God as "other" is wrong, God is not-other". So it's really the flip side of the same dualistic coin of opposites or distinctions. "This, and not-that". That is dualism, and monism says "This, oneness, not-that, two-ness, or three-ness, etc.".

So any arguments that ensue are simply arguing opposite of this and not-that. It's all just different sides of the dualistic mind. Nondualism does away with that by embracing both as equally true, as well as equally not-true. It understands both as perspectives of the mind, and both as equally real. God is 'other' to us, yet 'not-other'. Both One, and many.

I found this person's blog today which I feel expresses this well. Does Nonduality mean ‘Not Duality’? | Jeff Foster

From his blog,

You have taken yourself to be a separate wave in a vast ocean. You see yourself as a little person in a vast ocean full of other people. You see yourself as an individual in a world which is fundamentally separate from you.

But of course, the ‘separate wave’ in the ocean is not really ‘separate’ from the ocean at all. The ‘separate wave’ is really just the ocean appearing temporarily as a wave. The wave is actually one-hundred percent water, and so in essence, it’s the same as the ocean.

And so really there is no ‘separate wave’ at all. There only appears to be a separate wave. The wave is in appearance only. It is a temporary appearance of the ocean.

You – what you take yourself to be – the person, the character, the ‘me’, only has existence as an appearance, a story appearing now in boundless Being, a story which is ultimately not separate from Being.
Our individuality remains individual, yet the individuality is ultimately an appearance. I do exist as me, as that individual wave, but my existence is not separate from the Ocean. And it could be said easily that my individualism is an expression of the Ocean, as me. Your individuality is an expression of the Ocean, as you. The forms of your wave may differ from the shapes and forms of mine, but we are ultimately United by, through, and within the Ocean, or God itself.

Some waves are higher, some lower, some smaller, some bigger, some flatter, some rounder, but each single wave has exactly the same Wetness. They are not separate from the Ocean. It is the same Wetness in each wave that unites us as both One, and Many at the same time.

The strictly dualistic mind sees another wave and says "other". The strictly monistic mind sees another wave as says "same". The nondual mind see itself and all waves as unique, powerful, beautiful, individual, and forever bound together both in and as an expression of the Ocean itself, which is both within each wave, and each wave itself expressing itself as That from which it arises.

Think of it in terms of Formlessness and form. Form arises from Formlessness, and Formless exists both within, as as form. God is not separate from the Creation which arises from God as Source.

I am both the wave, and the Ocean. I am both man, and God. Not man as God, but not man as not-God, or other-to God either. This is to me the 'mystery' of the hypostatic union. In dualistic parlance, 100% + 100% = 200%. In nondualism, 100% + 100% = Is.

What that translates into is this, again from that blog I just found,

In other words, the appearance of the separate wave is not a problem for the Ocean. The appearance of your life story is itself a perfect expression of Being. In this unconditional love, nothing is denied.​

This challenging to penetrate as it requires a shift in our common place perceptual interpretation of Reality. Dualism is ultimately an appearance of Reality. It is real, yet also not Real at once. For me, I treat and approach dualist mind as a matter of convention and convenience, but not ultimate Truth or Reality. I may see things in that light, and it may offer great insights, but I do not mistake it as Truth. I see no ultimate division when dualism insists upon it.

You said “God is Infinite in Being, that means there is nothing that can possibly be outside God.” If nothing that can possibly be outside God which would mean that humans are inside of God. That is true in the sense that God can encompass us but we cannot encompass God.
But if God is not fully within us, then God does not exist somewhere. That's like saying there is no wetness in the wave, as if it were hollowed out and could exclude God somehow, removing God from existing everywhere equally at once.

God is infinite but humans are finite, which is why we cannot ever grasp the intrinsic nature of God.
But I have already pointed out we in fact can apprehend the intrinsic nature of God in our being, which I make a clear distinction between that peceptivity and the perceptivity of the cognitive mind with relies on the dualistic structures of language.

This may seem a hard concept, but it is key to understanding what I am saying. If you don't quite follow this, then I will happily explain it further.

Knowledge of the Essence of God is outside of reach for humans because God is infinite (beyond everything that can either be recounted or perceived) so our finite minds cannot ever grasp the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God.
But if the wetness of the Ocean is within our own waves, then while the wave cannot comprehend the endless of the Ocean as something outside itself, it most certainly can understand the whole of the Ocean within the wetness of itself. That wetness is the same in each wave. One is not trying to define or understand the Ocean as something outside of oneself, but as the Nature of our very existence as that wave itself.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
continued...

With all due respect, anyone can believe they received a revelation from God, but I do not believe that any human can have direct intercourse with God; inspiration or some kind of spiritual experience is not a revelation.
I do not believe God communicates in terms of human concepts. God communicates God's Being in us, that God Is, that God exists. And the essence of what that is, exists within us, as the Wetness of the Ocean is 100% the same wetness as the Ocean is in its infinite, endless Being.

All "revelation" is the human mind's translation of the Being of God into our human sphere, through our own individuality within God as a human. God is not a human being. We are. We speak what God is, to us. That's the "revelation".

As I said above, I do not believe God or the Holy Spirit literally resides in peoples’ bodies; I do not care what religions teach this, I would never believe in a religion that is that irrational.
There is a big difference between non-rational, and irrational. While God may transcend rationality, making the Knowledge of God a non-rational affair, this does not need to be a violation of reason, or rationality itself. One does not rationally experience love. Love is not irrational.

Now as far as God doesn't exist inside our bodies, then you have declared that God doesn't exist everywhere, and yourself just made God finite.

The irrationality at this point, is the wall that dualism hits where rationality falls apart. The irrationality is to try to make the Infinite fit within a dualistic system which divides this from that. That is where irrationality, violations of logic begin to fall all over itself. Speaking of God in terms of the Absolute with a dualistic system will result in irrationality. You have to move beyond duality if you truly wish for it to not violate reason.

Dualism serves a purpose, up to a point. At which point it becomes a disservice.

In fact, it is the opposite because any God that was accessible to finite humans would cease to be Infinite.
Why? No one is claiming the ego can contain the whole of God. No one is claiming the wave can say of itself, "I alone am the Ocean," denying all other waves or the Ocean itself. The wave is both the wave, and the Ocean. My wave, your wave, all waves. Humility says, "I as the wave am not the Ocean itself. I am the Ocean as this wave. I am a wave, because the Ocean becomes me".

I think we are using the word Infinite to mean different things. ;)
No beginning, no end, not start, no finish, no limits, no boundaries, etc.

I'll let you chew on this for awhile, as I know it's a lot to digest. Ultimately, it's not that complex. It's actually quite simple. But it is complex only in the sense that it requires us shifting how we think about and perceive ourselves and reality. It's like learning to rethink our thinking. Once that happens, it becomes a lot easier, and things touching into these areas about God and the Absolute become far less problematic for us than the challenges that dualism cannot overcome. :)
 

kaat

Storm Animal
Fascinating conversation. It's actually remarkable how far Christians /mono-theists will go to plot out and defend positions. Question though - surely even the most adventurous interpreter would agree that interpretations upon interpretations don't really bring much clarity - if anything, they curry more doubt. Or do I have that wrong?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Fascinating conversation. It's actually remarkable how far Christians /mono-theists will go to plot out and defend positions.
What this is, at least from my perspective, is not a defense of a belief position, i.e., apologetics. I do not take the position I am "right" and he is "wrong". I'm fully aware that these are all perspectives of Ultimate Reality, which each of us choose to call God, for various reasons. And in that light, what we believe is relative to the context, the frameworks of reality we are using; culture, language, awareness, etc. Ultimately, it's an explanation of how and why we can and do see things differently, yet at its core we say much the same things, without needing the other to adopt that way of thinking themselves.

BTW, I've never identified myself as a Christian or a monotheist in this discussion. Clearly, the things I am sharing draw from Christian teachings, but they also draw from Buddhist and Hindu teachings as well as atheistic perspectives.

Question though - surely even the most adventurous interpreter would agree that interpretations upon interpretations don't really bring much clarity - if anything, they curry more doubt. Or do I have that wrong?
I think there is a value to examining how beliefs are formed and held. To tease that apart opens one to 'doubt', which I consider a positive thing. To quote something you may have heard before, "No doubt, no awakening, small doubt, small awakening, great doubt, great awakening." One should always question one's own beliefs and the basis for them. To rest assured in your beliefs as true and absolutely authoritative, puts you at a disadvantage. It stops you at your beliefs.
 
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Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
According to the Baha'i view, God the essence is separate but God's attributes are part of everything. Definitely we are dualistic but in us are all the attributes of God, all that we can know of God. Knowing God in that sense is the same as knowing ourselves.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
According to the Baha'i view, God the essence is separate but God's attributes are part of everything. Definitely we are dualistic but in us are all the attributes of God, all that we can know of God. Knowing God in that sense is the same as knowing ourselves.
Are you familiar with the terms of Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman? I think I am hearing something similar in what you are saying. I found this explained nicely in this article, which to me very much reflects my views, and which I draw from in how I understand what Jesus was really about, as opposed to the more traditional dualistic view of God which the church adopted for itself.

Here's a quick quote from the article which I would encourage you to read the whole thing. @Trailblazer, if you are still confused about what I am trying to explain, read through this and it may help to explain it better than I can. Nirguna and Saguna

NIRGUNA is the eternal all-pervading and omnipresent divine consciousness.
SAGUNA is the manifestation of God in form.
.......

God in Nirguna form is in fact everywhere and in everything, but this is not easily comprehensible or “appealing” to our human intellect. The ultimate goal of humans is to become one in consciousness with the Nirguna form of God. But the medium through which we can reach this goal is the embodied form of God, Saguna.

It is difficult or almost impossible for our intellect to grasp and understand the universal, eternal, all-conscious and omnipresent divine energy. It is much easier for us to have a divine incarnation as a figurehead, towards whom we are able to direct our feelings.
.....

There are two types of Bhakti – Nirguna and Saguna – and both are equally important. For as long as we are unable to understand God and the Master in both aspects, Nirguna and Saguna, and believe in them, we cannot attain MOKSHA (liberation). We should recognise and realise both forms. Whoever has doubts about the Saguna form of God is also unable to realise the Nirguna aspect; and, likewise, meditating only on Nirguna without having Saguna God within your heart, will not lead you to the goal.​
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yet, I had two profound experiences of what anyone would call God before I had religion tell me about God. In fact, it was because of those experiences I sought out religion to help me understand. What they presented, in large part, was quite far off the mark. So, I had the words of "authorities", and their claims of prophets telling you about God. Yet, deep within my heart, that gentle, yet insistent voice made clear to me they were not speaking from the place of the Knowledge of God, which can only be truly known by personal experience, not "a sure word", so called. That "sure word" without experience, becomes a projection of one's own ignorance of God.
All I can say to that is that if you had truly heard from God and got information about God then there would not be a disparity between what Baha’u’llah wrote about God and what you experienced. You can just forget all the other scriptures, and I mean that. :) They do not represent anything that came directly from God through the Holy Spirit. Only the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah came from God and they were recorded as the revelation unfolded... The same is true of the Bab... I would like you to watch this short video because it depicts how the revelation came to the Bab.


The same thing happened to Baha’u’llah and we have witnesses to both revelations in the history of the Baha’i Faith. The same thing happened to Moses and Jesus but the 100 dollar difference is that we have no original accounts of these events except in ancient scriptures and we have no original scriptures. All we have are what men wrote that they purportedly said. That is the Gospels.
As I said, I came to hear that voice resonating the psalmist, "I know more than all my teachers". What I was taught, only confused me because it was supposed to be true, and I should trust it, but it violated the most assured, deepest possible experience of God that one could hope for. Again, all of that happened without a preacher, without teaching, without knowledge of religious beliefs, none of that. It happened. I knew enough about God without them, to know they didn't know.
So what did you know? Can you explain what you learned?
It's not the scriptures that tell you about God. Those 40,000 some Christian denominations all have their prophets too, and yet, they obviously believe contradictory things, all using the same scriptures.
I can believe that... ;) Like I said above, the Bible is not the direct Word of God; it is far removed from anything that ever came from God. Sure, it was the best we had until the Qur’an was revealed, which was a lot more authentic, but now we have the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah so we know what God actually revealed... :) This is not small potatoes, for people who actually want to know about God...
The Reality that those who touch into the Depths of the Divine is always there, for any of us to dip into and taste, in however we can. Those who dip deeper are just products of this Fabric of Reality, of Life who through whatever confluence of streams in their lives bring them to this, stand out to us as "special", as a "gift from God". That "specialness", that idea of "chosen" is from our human perspective against a backdrop of natural occurrences. If the right moment came in your life through years of events that put you in a position to "receive" (what I call simply being opened), this is not because you were "chosen" out of the pack by God to be special, to be a preordained voice of his, like a demi-god from eternity (the myth of prophets), but that you just happened to respond.

That "gift" was not for them, but for everyone. They and many others like them, just had the good fortune to encounter it, and for that, they should be seen as humbled people, not exalted above other humans, sent down from God to show us the way. This is why I rebuff this claim that these prophets should be viewed as above us. It's the opposite of what we should understand of them. We should honor them for their sacrifice of their lives in order to Know God and their willingness to talk of it and share. Don't deify them. Don't view them as "unlike" you. See them instead as showing the way for your to follow, where you can be as they. I like to say, it's better to call Jesus brother, than to call him Lord. There's a very real reason why I say this, and you're hearing some of that in here.
If the Prophets (Messengers of God) were not special in some way, not above us, then why did God choose them to receive an entire revelation? Why did God not reveal that to you or others? I am just trying to be logical. :)

Here is the other problem. Not all people can be attuned to God as you apparently are. It is simply unrealistic to say they can yet they are somehow not trying hard enough, because all people are so different. Even if people wanted to have a “God experience” there are far too many things that interfere with our free will... Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are varies among individuals. Access to God has to be made available to all humans regardless of their constraints, and that is why God sends Messengers. Moat all people can read and it is their free will decision as to whether they want to.
Nope. I'm not a deist. I'm a nondualist. I view God as both impersonal and personal. I believe God interacts with all of creation as it is an expression of God's very Being in all things. What I do not believe is God being a big version of humans, caring about this or that current human event, sending special angels or prophets to fix stuff for us. Those that do speak out, can in fact be speaking from that Wellspring of Life, as I've referred to having drunk of myself. But it's not "God's ideas" about what to do, but our own, inspired by that Light that is Eternal Love.
Let’s carry this thought through. If God is personal and cares about humans how are we going to know what God’s will is for us without some kind of “mediator” between God and man? The Messengers of God do not fix anything. They just reveal God’s will for every age and tell us how to fix what we need to fix. Do you follow any news? If you do you can see the catastrophe that is happening in the world and especially in the United States as a result of people who turned away from Baha’u’llah and are “waiting for Jesus” to return on a cloud from heaven and fix everything that is wrong in the world... Yes, people still believe this sort of thing, at least 50% of Americans believe that Jesus is going to return on a cloud and magically fix everything, even climate change. Had they accepted Baha’u’llah they would know that is a fantasy.

“Inspired by that Light that is Eternal Love” is fine for you and a select few people, but what about everyone else? What about the state of the world? Do you have a plan to fix it? The Baha’is do because Baha’u’llah revealed a detailed Plan. Being “connected” to God on a personal level is not going to fix anything on a mass scale. Sorry, I am just being pragmatic. A new message from God and organized religion is necessary.

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Filled with that in your cup, then your true creative will takes That and pours it forth out of yourself in your understanding of the world as a human being. It's not supernatural, even though it rightly can and should be called, extraordinary and gifted, visionary, and so forth. This is our potential as humans. It's is something that given the right confluence of streams, is the potential of all of us. And that to me, is the Will of God.
That is great for you, but most people will never realize their full potential without an intermediary between them and God. ;)
Actually, that was an experience of nonduality. My first experience prior to that actually did mirror an NDE. I didn't share that one. In that, there was nothing but Light as all time ceased. Infinite Mind, infinite Love, Infinite Grace, Infinite Power, Infinite Knowing, all why seemed but a tiny sliver of Infinity, which was Infinity in itself, with an Infinity of Infinities beyond this.

Then there was life review, where I saw my whole life flash before me with this Knowledge imparted to me that I was never alone. That this Infinite Love that held me like a fragile robin's egg in the Power of its infinite hand was never anywhere but right there the whole time I thought I was alone. When I found myself "back here" again, rivers of tears came flooding out of me, washing away in a torrent all the pain and fear I held within me. It was a couple weeks later that other experience happened as I was walking along outside, trying to process what had happened to me before.
All this I believe happens when we die... You simply got a sneak preview. :) For whatever reason, I believe God selects certain people to have these spiritual experiences.
Yes, I do realize that. And in my mind, that does not make me more special, or "above" others. It makes me "fortunate" on one front, and cursed on another.
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It comes with a price. I was left with an unquenchable thirst that religion offered trinkets of beliefs instead of actual guidance of those who knew the way home, having been there themselves. I lost my way for decades trying to find my way Home to begin to dip my cup into that Eternal Wellspring again as before.
I also lost my way for decades so we have that in common. I lost my way because I turned away from the Baha’i Faith and from God, and not until I started reading what Baha’u’llah wrote with seriousness and sincerity did I find my way back home. There was a lot more to the story than that but I am close to my max for today...:)
I want to pick this thought up in another post a little later. There's a lot I'd like to say about it and need to take a break from typing.
Okay, I am making my way through your posts one by one... I had a flurry of posts from various Christians so I got behind. I say something you said to Truthseeker9 that I want to address, but I will get to it when I get to it... ;)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm getting ahead of you in responses and am tempted to wait till you catch up, but there a few points I wish to make to this while they're fresh to my mind.....

All I can say to that is that if you had truly heard from God and got information about God then there would not be a disparity between what Baha’u’llah wrote about God and what you experienced.
I would very much disagree with this as humans all interpret meaning differently, including Baha'u'llah. This is one of the core problems I have with this evelavationsim of prophets as "above" others. One the one hand, mythologizing them into a symbol may help inspire faith for you, on the other, when it comes time to flap your own wings and fly, they become clipped by this doctrine of infallibility. It prevents one from seeing the next horizon, saying, "Flight is impossible because daddy bird told me I can't," says the hatchling eagle.

You can just forget all the other scriptures, and I mean that. :) They do not represent anything that came directly from God through the Holy Spirit. Only the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah came from God and they were recorded as the revelation unfolded... The same is true of the Bab... I would like you to watch this short video because it depicts how the revelation came to the Bab.
And the problem with this, is because each religious group claims the same thing, each with their doctrines of how theirs were miraculously delivered to them as opposed to the other groups. I get rid of that problem by getting rid of the idea of special revelation altogether. ;)

So what did you know? Can you explain what you learned?
I wouldn't put it in terms of "learned". I would put it in terms of what did I experience. What I experienced is that God is absolute, unconditional Love. I experienced that there is no darkness in God. I experienced pure Love, Light, and Life (listed as my religion here, ;) ). When I am exposed to teachings of others that casts God as evil, punishing sinners by sending them to an eternal hell, nothing in my experience allows for that to be true. For instance.

I can believe that... ;) Like I said above, the Bible is not the direct Word of God; it is far removed from anything that ever came from God. Sure, it was the best we had until the Qur’an was revealed, which was a lot more authentic, but now we have the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah so we know what God actually revealed... :) This is not small potatoes, for people who actually want to know about God...
And the Mormons have scriptures revealed by the angel Moroni....

The issue with any of this, is that myth is all good and find to inspire faith in some, but when taken literally, it would not be allowed to have one single error in it if the myth were true. And they all do. Then when pointed out by the critical eye, what ensues are rationalizations, excuses, denialisms, and place holders like "one day science will prove the Prophet was right, and so forth. All, unsatisfactory answers to the critical mind. All falling short of working for someone who respects and embraces criticality of thought as part of true spiritual growth.

If the Prophets (Messengers of God) were not special in some way, not above us, then why did God choose them to receive an entire revelation? Why did God not reveal that to you or others? I am just trying to be logical. :)
That is actually circular reasoning. "If they were not special, then why are my beliefs true?" They are special - to us. Everyone is equally special to God.

Why is it I did not create a religion? I am a different person with a different personality. There are plenty of charismatic individuals who start religions, some benevolent, others detrimental. They typically fit a certain personality type. A type which I don't have, nor desire to have. I am a different person, and my gifts are my gifts. "Better" is purely subjective to the one placing value on what that is to them.

Here is the other problem. Not all people can be attuned to God as you apparently are.
Again, I am not comparing myself to others. You are doing that. You do that with Baha'u'llah too. As far as me being attuned to God, that is a processes that as part of my personal spiritual development (aside from peak experiences). I could write an entire book on that subject alone. Sometimes, I well not-in-touch with God, but it is always when I am choosing to indulge in the desires of the ego. The key is when not having that Peace becomes something you no longer can get by with, substituting the cheap offerings the ego provides in its stead.

It is simply unrealistic to say they can yet they are somehow not trying hard enough, because all people are so different.
Once again, to refresh your memory, I have never said this. I have never said, nor believe for one second, that it is because people aren't "trying hard enough". What I do believe is that if you are trying, then you will not find God because that effort is an effort of the ego. I will say this in the positive, if someone wants to be immersed in the Ocean, all they need to do is "let go" and fall in. There is no effort, there is no trying in letting go.

If someone says, "I have tried letting go," then I'd say that's the problem. There is no trying, only doing. From experience, letting go is not as easy as it sounds, when you are still holding on to something and not letting it go. As the Buddhists rightly say, "Clinging creates our own suffering". You'd be surprised how much we are clinging to, that we think we are not. When you face death, when you pass through that door, then you release everything from your hands and fall into God. We can do that while still living. I always say, meditation is a rehearsal for the act of dying. Everyone can do it, not everyone is willing to volunteer to do it.

Even if people wanted to have a “God experience” there are far too many things that interfere with our free will... Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are varies among individuals.
Yes indeed. Some have a ton of baggage they cling to, but even those who seem to have less, clinging is still clinging and suffering relative. At a certain point, one realizes that none of it matters, and the only thing that does matter is, letting it go. That's when you find God.

But I need to add, don't assume that's the end, that you've arrived. Hardly. That's just the beginning. You then have to learn how to integrate all aspects of your life with God, including all your own personal histories you have in tow behind you. This is something that is a process, rather than a moment's Realization, as we might like to mythologize.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
continued.....

Access to God has to be made available to all humans regardless of their constraints, and that is why God sends Messengers. Moat all people can read and it is their free will decision as to whether they want to.
Reading anything with the mind not-illuminated will not read it as it is meant to be seen. It's not just the words, but the reader that truly matters over and above the words. I think most people truly do not understand this.

Let’s carry this thought through. If God is personal and cares about humans how are we going to know what God’s will is for us without some kind of “mediator” between God and man?
This is where I wanted to focus primarily. God being personal, does not mean God is a person, like a human is. Love is personal. Is Love a person? Does God "care"? I'd say yes, in the sense that Love is Life and Life is creative, giving of Itself for no reason other than that is Its Nature. The Being of God creates Life through the Nature of God, which is Love. Truth is God. God is Truth. God is Light. God is Love. All of these naturally "care" inasmuch as the whole of Creation is an Expression of the Divine Being itself.

I see no need to ultimately anthropomorphize God as "an entity" that cares or loves us from outside of us, like a parent would their child. In a sense, yes, we can visualize it this way to our minds if it helps us realize God's Being. But if we define God in this sense, that this is what God actually is, that God is what we imagine God is, then we are looking at a projection of ourselves as God, and we will end up frustrated, to say the least. "Why would God let that happen if he loved me??? He must be mad at me for something, or he has some master plan I don't know about, but when I die he may choose to tell me, or not," and on and on the egoic rationalizations send us spiralling into finding answers to satisfy the image of God we have made up in our minds. All the while, we miss God.

What is one reason many don't find God? That's one of them! :)

The Messengers of God do not fix anything. They just reveal God’s will for every age and tell us how to fix what we need to fix. Do you follow any news? If you do you can see the catastrophe that is happening in the world and especially in the United States as a result of people who turned away from Baha’u’llah and are “waiting for Jesus” to return on a cloud from heaven and fix everything that is wrong in the world... Yes, people still believe this sort of thing, at least 50% of Americans believe that Jesus is going to return on a cloud and magically fix everything, even climate change. Had they accepted Baha’u’llah they would know that is a fantasy.
I think your statistic is a little high there. I think those who think that way are probably in the minority in Christian circles. This is the nonsense of the Dominionists, and other fundamentalist nutjobs. They are flying at the magic altitude, where God is a great Magician in the sky that will magically fix everything for them if they remain faithful and true unto death. It's a narcissistic version of religion. It's all about them and their salvation, being the chosen few that God loves. God loves them and hates their enemies, just like them. Again, a projection of where they are at in themselves.

“Inspired by that Light that is Eternal Love” is fine for you and a select few people, but what about everyone else? What about the state of the world? Do you have a plan to fix it?
The "plan" is whatever unfolds at the time coming from a place of Love. The plan is to seek God first, and then from that place of Love, heal the world. Now, as far as that is "fine for [me] and a select few", I would say it is fine for everyone who has ever lived. This is what Jesus taught as the core of his teachings. It is the core of all religion.

Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment in the Law of God. His answer was to "Love God with all your heart, your mind, and your strength. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hand the entire law and prophets". Nothing else. Not master plan for building cities, or setting up infrastructures, or other social programs, etc. "Love God, first. Love your neighbor as yourself," secondly, as an extension and fulfillment of that Love that is God which is Realized in you through you loving God.

It's that simple, and that profound, and that transformative. And, is it for every single person who has ever lived. No other message is necessary. That is the cornerstone of all of it. And all the rest are just window dressings to make a religion look attractive to seekers of Truth.

Being “connected” to God on a personal level is not going to fix anything on a mass scale.
You don't think acting towards other as an extension of the Love of God itself fixes anything? I think you and I have a profound disagreement here! :) Let's spend some time focusing on this. Jesus taught this, that the Kingdom of God was like a tiny mustard seed that grew into a great bush which filled the whole world. That change happens beginning with the individual. That individuals spiritual life is that mustard seed. Having some master plan without that as the core, is doomed.

That is great for you, but most people will never realize their full potential without an intermediary between them and God. ;)
No one will realize their full potential unless that step out from under the tutelage of another. Until then, they are students. Students don't begin to access their full potentials until they leave school. The greatest teachers make students who surpass themselves. That is the highest fulfillment of any teacher. Those that want to keep their students dependent on them, serve themselves only.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone is at the place to do this. Stay in school as long as you are learning. But be careful you end up never realizing you can fly. You are an eagle, afterall. :)
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@ Windwalker
I want to focus on one thing you said, which is the most important thing in all of this. You said “Is religion necessary for the majority of people to have a connection to God?” Most Baha’i would say we need to go through the Manifestation of God (Baha’u’llah in this age) to have a connection to God. I would argue with other Baha’is who might say that religion IS necessary to have a connection with God simply for logical reasons; some people have a connection with God without religion.

What do we need religion for then? Well, some people need it to have a connection to God but I argue that ALL people need it to get a revelation from God. Here are a few excerpts from longer Tablets that explain why we need religion.

“From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the Teachings of this Day Star of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed.Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 67-68

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained….Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 80-81

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

“The purpose underlying the revelation of every heavenly Book, nay, of every divinely-revealed verse, is to endue all men with righteousness and understanding, so that peace and tranquillity may be firmly established amongst them. Whatsoever instilleth assurance into the hearts of men, whatsoever exalteth their station or promoteth their contentment, is acceptable in the sight of God. How lofty is the station which man, if he but choose to fulfill his high destiny, can attain! To what depths of degradation he can sink, depths which the meanest of creatures have never reached!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 206

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf


Unless you and other select individuals like you can reveal what Baha’u’llah revealed then you cannot say we do not need religion. I am just trying to be logical. ;)

Can you understand the patient (humanity) and correctly diagnose its ailments?
Can you adorn humanity with the mantle of justice and wisdom?
Can you endue all men with righteousness and understanding, so that peace and tranquillity may be firmly established among them?
Can you instill the fear of God into men?

Unless you can, then we need Messengers of God and the religions they establish.

Please do not confuse spiritual experience with religion as they have some overlap but they are not synonymous. Religion can help people attain spiritual experiences but that is just one small part of its purpose, as noted above.

The first purpose I listed, to manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed, is the one that is related to spiritual experiences. I cannot say you cannot do that without the teachings of a Messenger of God, but even if you do not think you need them, you have already used them because they were released into the world over 2000 years ago. :) I will give you that you can go it alone having learned what you need to from the teachings of Jesus, but that is only one of the five things I listed. :)

I have no idea why you think that all religion has to stifle spiritual growth and connection to God. That could be confirmation bias owing to your past experience with religion. I can point you to some Baha’is who are very mystical; I am not representative of the Baha’i Faith, we are all different. For example, Truthseeker9 is my god friend of many years on other forums and he meditates and is close to God. Nobody, and I repeat nobody is trying to take your experiences away. Why would they want to? Why would that be necessary? The Baha’i Faith is a very mystical religion. We are enjoined to walk the mystical path with practical feet. Baha’u’llah Himself was very mystical and I am sure you know about the Islamic mystics.

I do not know what you mean by Unity with God. All I ever said is that we cannot have direct intercourse with God or receive direct revelations from God. That is what I believe so if someone other than a Messenger of God says that happened to them I am going to disbelieve it. Why should I take anyone’s word over what Baha’u’llah revealed? After all, anyone can tell me they heard from God. Christians have told me the Holy Spirit speaks to them and they told me what they heard; I know it is wrong so I know they were just imagining that it was God speaking to them

Some people can go it alone with spirituality but they are missing the Will of God for this age if they reject Baha’u’llah. That is a really big thing to miss. :eek: As Baha’is, we are told that if others are not doing what we have been enjoined to do, we should do it ourselves. That is what I have been doing for four years, until I got to this forum and saw other Baha’is doing what I am… It is nice to have company. :)

“Be not grieved if thou performest it thyself alone. Let God be all-sufficient for thee. Commune intimately with His Spirit, and be thou of the thankful. Proclaim the Cause of thy Lord unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth. Should any man respond to thy call, lay bare before him the pearls of the wisdom of the Lord, thy God, which His Spirit hath sent down unto thee, and be thou of them that truly believe. And should any one reject thine offer, turn thou away from him, and put thy trust and confidence in the Lord, thy God, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 280

I must have read this passage dozens of times and I never saw this: “Commune intimately with His Spirit.” Well, maybe there is something I have been missing. :confused: This just proves the point I always make about independent investigation of truth… I mean I have been telling you what Baha’u’llah said when it is better for you to read it yourself since you will probably interpret it differently, given vastly different background and experience.

How about when discipline and control promotes growth? I think spiritual disciple that comes from teachings and laws does just that by focusing on what is most important – God – and enjoining us to turn away from self and the material world of dust.

I do not doubt that you had a profound spiritual experience. Let me make that clear. :D I cannot say what it was because I am not God and I am not you.

I won’t argue that we do not all have the potential for spiritual experiences but we also all have the potential to go to medical school and become a doctor. However, that won’t happen for the majority so I see no point talking about it. It is the same with the Baha’i Faith. Not everyone is going to recognize Baha’u’llah, few will in the present age, but everyone will in the distant future. We are told this is because we are guided and I believe that… I was not even looking. :)

I agree that God chose you to have these experiences just as God chose me to be a Baha’i. It is not a complete mystery but we do not know all the reasons…

“Great indeed is this Day! The allusions made to it in all the sacred Scriptures as the Day of God attest its greatness. The soul of every Prophet of God, of every Divine Messenger, hath thirsted for this wondrous Day. All the divers kindreds of the earth have, likewise, yearned to attain it. No sooner, however, had the Day Star of His Revelation manifested itself in the heaven of God’s Will, than all, except those whom the Almighty was pleased to guide, were found dumbfounded and heedless.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 11

I think a God knew I would be one who would make an effort for Him, even though it took me over 40 years… :eek: After all, God is omniscient so he knows the future…

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

I do not know why you think I am comparing MY experience to YOURS or God forbid that I am saying my experience was better! I am only saying I have had an experience of utmost joy. In fact whenever I watch certain u-tube videos made by Baha’is I break down in tears of joy and gratefulness…When I understand the immensity of this Revelation I feel like a mere nothing… It is as the Bab describe Himself in that u-tube video I posted to you.

I know at those moments I am connected to God in a mystical way… Is that okay with you that I have a “different kind of spiritual experience than you have had? :)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@ Windwalker
I want to focus on one thing you said, which is the most important thing in all of this. You said “Is religion necessary for the majority of people to have a connection to God?” Most Baha’i would say we need to go through the Manifestation of God (Baha’u’llah in this age) to have a connection to God. I would argue with other Baha’is who might say that religion IS necessary to have a connection with God simply for logical reasons; some people have a connection with God without religion.
Good. I agree with this. Obviously it is true in my case. Religion may be necessary for many, but not necessarily for everyone in order for them to know God.

What do we need religion for then? Well, some people need it to have a connection to God but I argue that ALL people need it to get a revelation from God.
This of course I very much disagree with. A "revelation" is what, exactly? Nature reveals God. Isn't that telling us something about God? Can't people gain knowledge of God, cannot God be revealed through communion with Spirit (which you later speak of here)?

We may be struggling in what you consider revelation. I take that in the sense of anything that emanates from the Source to expose our minds to Truth. That comes through many means. I can see the Truth of God revealed in a tiny insect crawling along the arm of my chair. A gust of wind can serve as the means to reveal God to my soul in times I am disconnected inside the swirling darkness of my own thoughts.

"And as I looked a quickening gust
Of wind blew up to me and thrust
Into my face a miracle
Of orchard-breath, and with the smell,—
I know not how such things can be!—
I breathed my soul back into me.

Ah! Up then from the ground sprang I
And hailed the earth with such a cry
As is not heard save from a man
Who has been dead, and lives again.
About the trees my arms I wound;

Like one gone mad I hugged the ground;
I raised my quivering arms on high;
I laughed and laughed into the sky,
Till at my throat a strangling sob
Caught fiercely, and a great heart-throb
Sent instant tears into my eyes;
O God, I cried, no dark disguise
Can e'er hereafter hide from me
Thy radiant identity!"​

~excerpted from the poem Renascence.

Now that's revelation! That is something that occurs of itself without the assist of religion as a go-between. God speaks in everything. It's only a matter of our own seeing and hearing.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct
Whoa! I very much take issue with this! In fact, in this day and age people are advised to take charge of their own health care. You don't just necessarily trust what that one specialist says. You should get a second opinion, at the least.

As a simple personal example, I have had issues where my nose was constantly blocked on one side or the other the majority of the time, for years. I brought it up with my physician who at first gave me a nasal spray with a steroid in it. That sort of worked, for brief periods of time, kind of, but certainly not a long term thing. I was thinking maybe it was dust allergies, and so forth. He then said he could send me into an ENT (Ear, Nose, Throat) specialist, but advised me that they think in terms of surgery, which is their world of truth to them, and that that may not be the best approach. I never went.

Finally, I figured it out myself, and who would have thought the root cause? I then shared my discovery with my doctor to add to his knowledge from what I learned on my own. It was my posture. From doing computer work all day, and at that time a lack of exercise, I was all hunched over. My chest was caved in and my back muscles all stretched out. I was hunched over all the time. My posture standing sucked. I was wrecking all sorts of areas of my body, such as my knees and feet.

I had started taking Tai Chi training classes and discovered all sorts of issue with my body that had crept in over the years. I went to PT a few times working on my legs and hips, and shoulders. Then as I began developing muscles supporting the shoulders, guess what? My nose cleared up, permanently! Now that I am standing and sitting far better and my body is actually supporting me the way it evolved to work, my sinuses are clear and free flowing as well! Imagine that! And as a result of that, my focus is clearer, my mind is sharper, and my quality of life improved by getting better oxygen flow.

Had I not questioned going under a damned knife to fix the problem, had I trusted the ENT approach and not questioned that for myself, I would not have found the root cause of anything, and would have be unnecessarily, and violently only been treating the symptoms, which probably would not have worked anyway, considering the root cause had nothing to do with any of that. So no, don't trust others blindly.

Now, when it comes to Gurus (or Prophets in this case), you most certainly should question them! Gurus are not perfect in all areas of their lives. There are many who are absolutely brilliant and insightful in understanding the depths of Spirit. But on a moral developmental level, for instance, they may actually be less developed than their students! This is a common thing actually, where people are dismayed to find out this brilliant teacher is having sex with his students, for instance.

No one is beyond reproach, and to mythologize them to the point it is essentially called sacrilege to question them, is one thing: Dangerous. Yet, the authoritative passage above says this? "To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct". Wrong. Everyone needs to be held accountable, especially those in positions of authority! If their conduct is beneath their station, it should not be overlooked. To not question is morally, socially, and spiritually irresponsible. It is not an act of arrogance to question, but an ethical and spiritual obligation.

Unless you and other select individuals like you can reveal what Baha’u’llah revealed then you cannot say we do not need religion. I am just trying to be logical. ;)
You yourself just earlier above acknowledged that not everyone needs religion. You should answer yourself on this point. :)

Can you understand the patient (humanity) and correctly diagnose its ailments?
With Wisdom comes discernment. We can in fact grown in such Wisdom. Yes, in very many ways I do see the sources of many of our ills. Yes.

Can you adorn humanity with the mantle of justice and wisdom?
I, as anyone else of sufficient maturity, can offer truths from a place of Wisdom. That people chose to respond is solely up to them.

Can you endue all men with righteousness and understanding, so that peace and tranquillity may be firmly established among them?
That I am able to endure the foibles of humanity with Grace is a matter of my own personal spiritual growth and depth. That others respond to that is nothing anyone, not even Jesus Christ, can elicit from others against their own will. Those with the spiritual Will, respond to Light when it is offered. Can I offer that Light at time? Yes. Do I always? Of course not. I'm still growing. ;)

Can you instill the fear of God into men?
By "fear" of God, I would not take that in the sense of making people afraid of God. That's what the fundamentalists who do not know God do to others. The fruits of that is not liberation at all, but enslavement! But if you mean "fear" in the sense of "reverence", I would say anyone who is able to act from that place of Grace from themselves towards others, typically will elicit a favorable response. That favorable response is to me, but far deeper than that, it is a response to Love, which is a response to God. Again, I'm not that 100% of the time. Very few are, and if they are, they weren't always that.

Unless you can, then we need Messengers of God and the religions they establish.
Actually, very few of the above is why religions are good at what they do. In a nutshell, religions essentially create a structure to support religious aspirations towards Good. It is people who make the religions from the spiritual desires of their own hearts. They are there to support that desire, and hopefully grow it. They are spiritual community, and communities support their members. That is what a religion is for. But ultimately, it comes down to the individual to grow for themselves.

Please do not confuse spiritual experience with religion as they have some overlap but they are not synonymous. Religion can help people attain spiritual experiences but that is just one small part of its purpose, as noted above.
Of course I know that. You are preaching to the choir here. I'm all for the "spiritual but not religious" crowd! You could say I would be numbered amongst them. I like to tell people, "I follow the same religion God does". Can you name one? :)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
continued....

The first purpose I listed, to manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed, is the one that is related to spiritual experiences. I cannot say you cannot do that without the teachings of a Messenger of God, but even if you do not think you need them, you have already used them because they were released into the world over 2000 years ago. :) I will give you that you can go it alone having learned what you need to from the teachings of Jesus, but that is only one of the five things I listed. :)
You know, there's a book which I've never read, but the title of the book says so very much. It's called, "If it weren't for the Buddha, I couldn't be a Christian". I absolutely love that! What's my point? There are teachings out there from many different sources, and not all of them are considered "Prophets" by your religion. Such as Sri Aurobindo, Ramana Maharshi, St. John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, and so on and so forth. It is because of the insights of those like these that my exposure to the teachings of Jesus, which I quote from regularly as you can see, that help to illuminate their deeper understandings. But it is primarily my own practice of meditation, of a devotional nondual approach to everything that takes that Truth I met one day decades ago and lets it unfold within me to the point I am very much finding my way Home.

The frameworks of understandings that others have come to, help to illuminate your own path for you. But, and I advise this strongly, do NOT become married to how you hold these things as true. You absolutely have to allow them to be broken, molded, shaped, or replaced in your thinking when the time comes. Otherwise, you not cross that line from being a spiritual path, to a religion. The last thing, it seems, for most aspiraratents, is to move beyond their religion. You can climb the scaffolding to the top of the building, but at some point, you have to enter the building itself and leave the scaffolding behind.

To quote the Buddha here, "To insist on a spiritual practice that served you in the past is to carry the raft on your back after you have crossed the river". Add to this, to insist on a religious belief that has served you in the past. Let it serve you. Use it to get you across the river. Then get out of the boat and thank it for bringing you thus far on your journey.

I have no idea why you think that all religion has to stifle spiritual growth and connection to God.
I have no idea why you believe I believe this. :) It serves a purpose, just as a mother's breast does to to her offspring. But at a certain point, if you don't learn to eat solid food, you will not fully develop and remain dependent on your mother's milk to survive. Granted, that's a long ways off for many, but I'm just saying, keep that in mind and don't idolize the religion too much. It's not God. God is God.

I do not know what you mean by Unity with God.
Unity with God means that I-Thou relationship is realized in the hyphen mark. :) You realize, experientially, that you are not "other" to God, nor God to you.

That is what I believe so if someone other than a Messenger of God says that happened to them I am going to disbelieve it. Why should I take anyone’s word over what Baha’u’llah revealed? After all, anyone can tell me they heard from God. Christians have told me the Holy Spirit speaks to them and they told me what they heard; I know it is wrong so I know they were just imagining that it was God speaking to them
I question anyone who says God tells them secret things, like how evolution works, the lottery ticket numbers, where to find their lost car keys, and so forth. This is why in no small way do I approach any religions' prophets who claim to have this. For one thing, God doesn't "think" thoughts like people do, so secret knowledge "revealed" to them is some other sort of phenomena. I won't get into explaining that here.

Some people can go it alone with spirituality but they are missing the Will of God for this age if they reject Baha’u’llah.
Oh. No. We, Don't. :) God's Will for this age is the same as for every age. Love. "Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself". "On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets", or all of religion. Everything. "Love is the fulfillment of the Law". "Love works no ill". You can start with that, and end with that, and everything in between is fulfilling God's will, no matter what those solutions you may device take shape into. This a Timeless Truth. Not sure why we need a "new" message when it's found right there. Just repeat it, don't revise it. :)

That is a really big thing to miss. :eek: As Baha’is, we are told that if others are not doing what we have been enjoined to do, we should do it ourselves. That is what I have been doing for four years, until I got to this forum and saw other Baha’is doing what I am… It is nice to have company. :)
And what is that that others aren't doing that you feel is God's Will that is not captured in "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself"?

I must have read this passage dozens of times and I never saw this: “Commune intimately with His Spirit.” Well, maybe there is something I have been missing. :confused:
That's actually the very first thing I saw. I describe my meditation practice as "Communion with Spirit". Indeed it is. Yes, you are missing something if you don't have that experience yet. If you did, I tend to think you might get a lot more of what I'm saying, maybe not in word choices, but certainly in what I'm touching into. :)

How about when discipline and control promotes growth? I think spiritual disciple that comes from teachings and laws does just that by focusing on what is most important – God – and enjoining us to turn away from self and the material world of dust.
Certainly a commitment requires discipline. I set my alarm every morning at a certain time to get up before dawn in order to spend a hour or two on my meditation cushion, every day for over six years. I shifted that practice over to my physical body, which itself becomes of a form of worship of God. I go each morning to swim in water for an hour, meditating with the mind, the body, and the spirit in weighless states, exercising, stretching, and increasing the range of this flesh sack in which Spirit lives. It is a celebration of Life, which is the worship of God.

To do this, is to create a beauty harmony of the body and the mind and the soul and spirit. It is all part of the same pursuit of the Knowledge of God, in the heavens, and on earth, in me. This is available to all of us, in whatever capacities we can explore. Discipline is key, but prior to this, the cornerstone of all of this or any spiritual pursuit and practice is: Intention. The will.

I won’t argue that we do not all have the potential for spiritual experiences but we also all have the potential to go to medical school and become a doctor.
No, actually we do not. Some people do not have the capacity for certain things, such as a man having a baby. But we all have the capacity to know what it is to bleed since we all have blood. We all have the Spirit of God because we are the Creation of God. How much that is developed, or can be, will vary for many reasons. There is no judgment or grade you have to pass to still be God's child.

However, that won’t happen for the majority so I see no point talking about it. It is the same with the Baha’i Faith. Not everyone is going to recognize Baha’u’llah, few will in the present age, but everyone will in the distant future. We are told this is because we are guided and I believe that… I was not even looking. :)
I am guided as well. Are you saying that God doesn't guide those who aren't Bahai'i? If so, I think that's a problem you should examine in your thinking.

I agree that God chose you to have these experiences just as God chose me to be a Baha’i. It is not a complete mystery but we do not know all the reasons…
I don't think God "chose" me to have these experiences. I think who we are responds to God in our own ways that we need to. I'm happy you have found the Baha'i faith to help you find Truth. Just remember, God transcends religion.

I think a God knew I would be one who would make an effort for Him, even though it took me over 40 years… :eek: After all, God is omniscient so he knows the future…
Omniscence is a tricky subject. :) I'll share a snippet thought of mine to maybe make your mind melt a little. How we think of time is conditioned into us as linear creatures. However, there is the non-linear, and things like time are not as they appear to us. All points of time are happening in each 'now' moment. In many ways, our future selves can in some fashion reach back to our past, or current selves. These "influences", can in fact be from us in our future, so to speak.

That voice of assurance, touching our shoulder in times of deep need, could in fact be our own selves sending that to ourselves, loving ourselves in our own pasts. Now, I'm not standing on this as "factual", but it is intended to provoke a certain perspective of how we see ourselves and our own lives situated in time. I can say to some extent I have and do experience this, though I cannot understand it rationally, of course. At his point, it's just thoughts I'm playing with.

Mind melted yet? :)

I do not know why you think I am comparing MY experience to YOURS or God forbid that I am saying my experience was better! I am only saying I have had an experience of utmost joy. In fact whenever I watch certain u-tube videos made by Baha’is I break down in tears of joy and gratefulness…When I understand the immensity of this Revelation I feel like a mere nothing… It is as the Bab describe Himself in that u-tube video I posted to you.
I haven't watched that yet but will. I'm happy and supportive of you having such experiences. They help to open us beyond ourselves to something more.

I know at those moments I am connected to God in a mystical way… Is that okay with you that I have a “different kind of spiritual experience than you have had? :)
Absolutely! I would say that it's all the same thing, just expressed and experienced in different ways. There is no end to it. It only goes deeper, and deeper, and deeper, and deeper, and deeper...... ;)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As promised, I watched the video you shared. I have thoughts, but first from a technical point of view as someone who has worked as a production engineer in the past, currently a musician writing and recording my own music in my recording studio I've built at home.... ouch! I don't mean to rain upon the parade here, but... The level of the music totally overpowers his words the narrator is reading, to the point I can barely make them out. Additionally, the mic he used, the word poor is too good. Grainy, indistinct, thin, etc. Added with the hot levels of the music overlayed on them makes one strain to follow, which does not help in the inspirational nature of the video which was its clearly intended purpose.

Ok, now that that's out of my system, on to the positive side of it. It makes me appreciate how the human heart finds expression in inspiring thoughts and things of beauty like this. Building great temples, stories of faith, of miracles, and so forth create a sense of Hope in us. And that is what truly brings people to find God in themselves through such things. Our mythologies are created to point to the moon, something beyond the fingers pointing. To believe, is what opens faith in us. And faith is the thing in itself. The stories that God would care enough to touch us with Messengers, is about our relationship to God. If we believe, trust, that God Loves us, then we can find God. As I said before, in order to see God everywhere, we have to first see God somewhere. This is the nature of religions. To help us see God somewhere. I appreciate this.

Back to recording stuff again... ;) I feel to share something I recorded on the fly a bit over a year ago while I was staying alone for a couple of months at a lake cabin. I was just beginning to learn playing the bansuri, a Northern Indian bamboo flute at the time. This was just some nice improvisational thing I did while looking out at the lake at sunset. I added some of my photography I took while staying there as a sort of spiritual retreat for myself. I've improved considerably on the flute since then, but I still find this touches the soul for what it was, and when it was. I hope you find some inspiration of your own through this. Hope. Yes, that's a good word.

 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Religion can give you infallible guidance on how to live your life. Also it infallibly gives the laws that society lives by and guidelines for sentencing in the Baha'i Faith. Also it gives the framework for unity. If everyone loved each other there would be unity but that's not reality. Only a few love everybody.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Religion can give you infallible guidance on how to live your life.
I don't believe there is such a thing as one shoe-size fits all solution. Guidance is not infallibility. Guidance is suggestions based on the wisdom of experience, not facts rammed down the throats of others to conform themselves artificially to.

Also it infallibly gives the laws that society lives by and guidelines for sentencing in the Baha'i Faith.
Since when should "faith" be considered infallible fact? I think you mean a different word than faith. You must mean dictatorship and a lack of freedom?

Also it gives the framework for unity. If everyone loved each other there would be unity but that's not reality. Only a few love everybody.
When I say Love, I do not mean egoistic love. I mean the Love of God. And if that doesn't create Unity, nothing can.
 
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