The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

[Link]

When I left Islam for five years, my mind was twisted in a way to find faults in Quran. But emotionally the reason I was motivated to leave Islam and find faults was the idea of hell for disbelievers (I knew the concept of mustafeen and it was not that being the problem).

How you emotional phrase a moral question like for example, why suffering exists in the world, will make you disbelieve very easily. This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

Here is a poem I wrote way back:

Say Islam was true
And I was a Jew
Would God torture me
For what I did not see?

In the name of justice
Pain as the flames burn
Days turn into weeks
Weeks into years
All for disbelief
I will have no relief

Billions of years pass by
Justice is still not served
All good is rejected
My good actions are ineffective
And I would not burn if my mind was reflective?

This is the creed that I use to follow
But now I realize such a creed is shallow
Whomever desires other than the true religion
Let him burn in the fire?!
As oppose to loving him, having compassion for him
Appreciating his good,
Honoring his struggles,
Being his friend,
No! No! That is not the way!

For God is enemy of those whom disbelieve!
Friend and Protector of those whom believe!
All are reduced to the lowest of the low!
Except - of course - for those all special and great believers!
Everyone but them, to hell they go!

All astray souls - be prepared for increasing burning!
For none but the guided will have peace!
Is that the remembrance that is suppose to bring ease?
Peace you say?
Bowing Five times a day!
To a Lord whom will watch humans burn in agony?
Having the believers laugh at them for the sake of an irony?

A Lord whom tortures everyone but the righteous guided?
A Lord whom loves not the disbelievers!
Hates them with a strong hatred!
And all this teachings is suppose to be sacred?

Most Merciful, Most Compassionate is he called by all!
But threatens all to hell, except those whom respond to the call?
If you have to be righteous to enter heaven.
What mercy was ever spread in creation?
Or is God accepting regret from a righteous person
Truly a show of ultra mercy, forgiveness, and compassion?
As if it's not justice to accept his regret and reformation!

At the end, O Lord of Islam!
If you are to burn me for this heresy
Then you truly were not a Lord of Mercy.
Not Worthy of Worship, not worth anyone's time.





Comment: The idea of hell being denied by the wicked people is all over Quran. At the end, the battle between truth and falsehood in my view, will be a battle between soothsayers type religion and the Prophets and sent ones religion, and there will not be different versions of the latter, because Mahdi and Jesus will bring miracles. It's just at this point, some will accuse them of being sorcerers and gained their power through skill and knowledge rather then being given that power from God which is disbelief in God's Lordship.

 

[Windwalker]

This is why it's important for me to pay attention to the proofs and insights in Quran proving hell and particular to disbelievers and the different levels of it because without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam.

If I'm understanding correctly, your heart and moral compass tells you hell is unjust and a form of terrorism in order to get compliance to obeying God. But if it weren't for finding proof in the Quran it's really real, you would reject it? Do you think we as humans should deny our hearts and instead become heartless, if we are to be true believers in God?

 

[JoshuaTree]

Only when you love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul can you love your neighbor as yourself and overcome sin, death, and the power of the devil crossing over from the darkness into the lightness. God is in control of all that was, all that is, and all that ever shall be but we cannot realize this until a time and place of God's choosing. EVERYONE plays an important part in God's perfect plan, but everyone just don't know that yet.

My opinion hell is what you make if it, if hell is God's will for me then I'll play my part in His plan the best I can.

 

[joe1776]

Like some other animals, we humans can be trained using the reward and punishment method. Reward works pretty well on its own, as does punishment. But the two combined are a very powerful way to coerce people to get them to do what you want them to do.

The founders of Christianity and Islam cleverly invented Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) to persuade people to accept their doctrine and to stick with it. The method works especially well when offered to children before they are capable of much doubt.

 

[Link]

If I'm understanding correctly, your heart and moral compass tells you hell is unjust and a form of terrorism in order to get compliance to obeying God. But if it weren't for finding proof in the Quran it's really real, you would reject it? Do you think we as humans should deny our hearts and instead become heartless, if we are to be true believers in God?

You misunderstood.

 

[Link]

I believe Quran proves hell as a concept in itself and has proofs why disbelievers of various levels deserve it and not only deserve it, why God's compassion won't save them from it if they don't repent and change in time.

This is different then to say I believe Quran is a book from God and then because it talks about hell, I believe in hell.

It's two different things. I believe the latter is very hard to maintain. To maintain belief of hell simply because Quran says so is very hard, and for me especially, since I was not acquainted with eloquent miracles of Quran that much or knew very little about eloquence.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe Quran proves hell as a concept in itself and has proofs why disbelievers of various levels deserve it and not only deserve it, why God's compassion won't save them from it if they don't repent and change in time.

This is different to say I believe Quran is a book from God and then because it talks about hell, I believe in hell.

But if it were not for what you see in the Quaran, you find it offensive and would not believe it otherwise? "Without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam," are your words.

To me this reflects the conflict I had in Christianity as well, which sent everyone but themselves to hell as well. My soul could not fathom any of that as true, despite what they read from the Bible. My heart could not allow that. I could not embrace a God that would do something that my very own soul saw as horrifying and the opposite of love. I would have had to sever my own consciousness and heart in order to continue believing it. I could not do that myself. So I left.

 

[Link]

But if it were not for what you see in the Quaran, you find it offensive and would not believe it otherwise? "Without that proof and eloquently emphasizing on it, I would not be able to stay in Islam," are your words.

To me this reflects the conflict I had in Christianity as well, which sent everyone but themselves to hell as well. My soul could not fathom any of that as true, despite what they read from the Bible. My heart could not allow that. I could not embrace a God that would do something that my very own soul saw as horrifying and the opposite of love. I would have had to sever my own consciousness and heart in order to continue believing it. I could not do that myself. So I left.

But the proofs themselves in Quran, convince me. It's not that the Quran says so, it's the proofs and insights to hell I derived it from Quran. Actually this is not fair to say. I realized from teachings of (1) Quran (2) Ahadith to compliment it (3) reasoning with respect to wahdatal Wujood (4) Signs within oneself.

It's these 4 combined that made come to belief in it. I didn't believe in Quran so the proofs in Quran had to prove me hellfire. Proving Messengers doesn't prove Mohammad (s) to be one or Jesus (a) to be one and hellfire has independent proofs. You don't need to believe in Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) to be convinced of the proofs for it in Quran.

 

[Windwalker]

But the proofs themselves in Quran, convince me. It's not that the Quran says so, it's the proofs and insights to hell I derived it from Quran. Actually this is not fair to say. I realized from teachings of (1) Quran (2) Ahadith to compliment it (3) reasoning with respect to wahdatal Wujood (4) Signs within oneself.

It's these 4 combined that made come to belief in it. I didn't believe in Quran so the proofs in Quran had to prove me hellfire. Proving Messengers doesn't prove Mohammad (s) to be one or Jesus (a) to be one and hellfire has independent proofs. You don't need to believe in Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) to be convinced of the proofs for it in Quran.

So what do you do about that feeling of atrocity in the act of sending people to be tortured because they failed to convert to a religion? Are you okay with that?

Would you be okay with it, if say some group tied human beings to a post and then let them on fire for not converting to a religion? Would you celebrate that, or be horrified and repulsed by that? If you were told this was God's will, would you join in and feel no remorse whatsoever? I personally doubt that, and that should tell you something, I would think.

 

[PureX]

The idea of hell is emotionally draining.

So is the reality of it, I suspect.

 

[Link]

So what do you do about that feeling of atrocity in the act of sending people to be tortured because they failed to convert to a religion? Are you okay with that?

Would you be okay with it, if say some group tied human beings to a post and then let them on fire for not converting to a religion? Would you celebrate that, or be horrified and repulsed by that? If you were told this was God's will, would you join in and feel no remorse whatsoever? I personally doubt that, and that should tell you something, I would think.

Like I said, it's how you phrase things that change perspective. A lot of people don't believe in God because of suffering in this world. But if you phrase why we are in fallen world correctly, it may convince them, otherwise.

I can phrase the question of hell like I did in my poem, and not listen to God's proofs for it, then I would remain a disbeliever in hell.

But if I give God a chance to prove it, and give a chance of the family of his reminder to prove it, then it maybe the way they phrase it convinces me from a different better perspective.

 

[Windwalker]

But if I give God a chance to prove it, and give a chance of the family of his reminder to prove it, then it maybe the way they phrase it convinces me from a different better perspective.

So then, if say your parents who raised you and loved you body, mind, and spirit, just did not see God in the way the particular religion you decided upon did, how would it make you feel to see them as going to hell, despite the fact that you know them as unconditionally loving human beings who raised you as part of their own lives?

It's one thing to try to convince ourselves rationally a belief like hell, in order to keep ourselves in a religion we like. But it's another thing to live with a belief that your own parents are damned by the God you worship, while you yourself would never imagine such a horrible, unjust fate upon those whom you love. That is a major, massive conflict of faith. It's the conflict I faced too. Thankfully, Love won out.

 

[Link]

Salam

Again, you are phrasing it in a way that makes the belief look bad. I'm going to later today or sometime this week phrase it in a way that if not proves it, at least, gives it more credibility.

 

[Windwalker]

Salam

Again, you are phrasing it in a way that makes the belief look bad. I'm going to later today or sometime this week phrase it in a way that if not proves it, at least, gives it more credibility.

Try to find a way to make it morally palatable, that anyone who knows what it is to love and be loved by another human being, can be okay with a God doing something that violates their own innate sense and awareness of love. If you can do that, that would be meaningful.

Trying to find a rational argument to justify an unjust or terrifying belief, does not convince the soul very well. And it is the soul that needs to believe. The soul needs to get behind and support it. Otherwise, that belief, as well argued at it may be, in failing to convince the heart, fails altogether. That's what I discovered myself.

 

[Link]

Try to find a way to make it morally palatable, that anyone who knows what it is to love and be loved by another human being, can be okay with a God doing something that violates their own innate sense and awareness of love. If you can do that, that would be meaningful.

Trying to find a rational argument to justify an unjust or terrifying belief, does not convince the soul very well. And it is the soul that need to believe. Otherwise, that belief, as well argued at it may be, in failing to convince the heart, fails altogether. That's what I discovered myself.

I agree with you. Which is why I will try to emotionally show why I believe in it.

 

[sun rise]

The founders of Christianity and Islam cleverly invented Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment)

It's hardly limited to those two religions. Reward and punishment is part of the personal egoic self. Watch atheist parents with children and you'll often see it in action.

We are slowly growing up as a species and need that carrot and stick less and less.

 

[osgart]

I know my mother has never heard of the Quran all her life. She is deceased. Am I to think her love is in vain?

What's your book say about that?

You don't think a person apart from your book can know love, compassion?

I'll take hell over this heaven gladly.

 

[Link]

Quran says the idea of hell itself won't increase most but in aversion and in running away. Per Quran, God is not doing it to attract humans to follow the truth (carrot and stick), since most humans through their desires - will further run away from Islam because of this notion. However, he does praise those who fear in him and believe in his wrath and the next world as in both hell and paradise.

I think we have to start with the worst case scenario. For that, I won't even talk about Pharaoh and their oppression, since that can be said to be fiction, let's talk about a criminal we are aware of in recent times. I'm going to talk about Sadam Hussein and why I believe God will torture him forever.

Then we will go to lesser cases of evil after.

 

[Link]

Through reasoning though, I believe warning about hell, should ignite a human to seek truth regarding it. It's insanity not to seek the truth with that threat, to not be certain of hell not existing, and teaching other humans and preaching it doesn't exist or is temporary.

In terms of attraction though, Quran says it causes them to only run away further.

The balance Quran is saying, is that the truth is against our low desires but we must with the heart reflect over the truth of the matter and see God's wrath with respect to evil.

Once we accept it with respect to evil there is more dialogue as to why disbelievers are in category of the dark souls and evil ones. This is two different topics though.

The concept of hell and the justice with respect to disbelievers. They are related but two different proofs are required.

The concept of hell for the evil ones like Saddam Hussain, I think we can prove it through emotionally and rationally seeing through their crimes, they deserve it.

What is harder to see, is the silent towards oppressors being a source of help to oppressors and the need to take side of God's truthful kings in the battle between good and evil.

God is the true King of humanity and we have to respond to his call. But the proof of that is different.

To me I remember days of arguing why God will have compassion and not punish Sadam. But my heart swerved with respect to God a great swerving.

Everything in extremes is never good almost. Courage might make us do stupid things in extreme, it ceases to be courage but foolishness at that point.

Compassion is good in it's place, but if we can't condemn Sadam to hell forever, it ceases to be praiseworthy because it's gone all over the place and in extreme.

 

[JoshuaTree]

Quran says the idea of hell itself won't increase most but in aversion and in running away. Per Quran, God is not doing it to attract humans to follow the truth (carrot and stick), since most humans through their desires - will further run away from Islam because of this notion. However, he does praise those who fear in him and believe in his wrath and the next world as in both hell and paradise.

I think we have to start with the worst case scenario. For that, I won't even talk about Pharaoh and their oppression, since that can be said to be fiction, let's talk about a criminal we are aware of in recent times. I'm going to talk about Sadam Hussein and why I believe God will torture him forever.

Then we will go to lesser cases of evil after.

God will torture him? Forever?