The Great Architect of the Universe

[URAVIP2ME]

We humans seem very limited, compared to this immense universe.
So obviously (to me) chances are slim we can unravel the mystery behind this universe.
Nothing comes from nothing is a worldly view. But there can be other dimensions, where maybe exist other realities "something came from nothing"
When I see this universe our line "Nothing comes from nothing" might be a "human truth", but I don't see it as a Universal Truth.
I think the "God concept" was invited by a smart and humble guy, who figured out, that all this "stuff" is way out of his league.

I agree it is a worldly view, a human view, and Not a scriptural view that nothing comes from nothing.
The Bible's view (God's view) is that the ' something supplied ' is by God, is by His spirit as per Psalms 104:40
Thus, God's Power, God's Strength is the dynamic energy force needed to create the visible material world.
- Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 32:17

 

[Thief]

So why couldn't multiple people have been first rather than someone?

I get your I am statement. It is as if Isuddenly realised he was self aware.

What is my reflection reflecting from and what is creating the echo (unless you were being metaphorical here)?

What did I create the substance from?

science is seeking the answers to the questions you ask
so far......no luck

for now....we get to wait for the last breath
God and heaven will appear to see whatever stood from the dust
THEN you ask Him.....to His Face

 

[Thief]

but hey.....what about all that dark energy?
what about all that dark matter?

science claims it has to be there
always was (even before the creation of light)
is now
and likely to be......forever

 

[Aman Uensis]

Someone had to be First

But what is being first in the face of infinity?

Imagine that existence is a painter's canvas. God is the artist and each brushstroke is an element of existence - the trees, the rocks, the seas and the things that dwell amidst all of it.

If this painting is our existence, what canvas does God inhabit? Keeping in mind that God stands apart from our canvas in order to see the entire picture and effect it. And to reference the original poster's game analogy, if God wished to communicate with us here, He/She/It must do so within the rules of this existence - if a game designer wished to visit their game world they would have to program themselves into it using the same code.

Logically then, God inhabits a canvas apart from ours. But whose? We can say God was the first. But in order to exist as the first there would have to be an existence before God, a fabric of some kind of reality.

 

[Thief]

If this painting is our existence, what canvas does God inhabit?

prior to the creation of light
God was God of the Dark

and instruction was given thousands of years ago
Go to your closet and close the door
and the Spirit that knows you will hear your prayer

it's kinda dark in there......right?

and if the Spirit would speak to answer your prayer
would you stay in the closet?

 

[Aman Uensis]

Everything in existence comes into existence from an already existing material

Infinity also poses some questions for this argument as well. When scientists propose theories for the universe having come into being from nothing, their "nothing" is still something. Whether it's a vacuum or a void, there is still something. But I've been trying to take it one step further and imagine a state of non-existence. Does anyone think this could be possible? There being no such reality or fabric of reality or existence to speak of. Me personally, I think not. Because then we really could say that nothing comes from nothing which in itself might be a paradox if considering non-existence because something has to exist in the first place.

And now I've gone and confused myself...

But I do think infinity is something more than it seems. Something to do with God, science and existence itself.

 

[Aman Uensis]

prior to the creation of light
God was God of the Dark

and instruction was given thousands of years ago
Go to your closet and close the door
and the Spirit that knows you will hear your prayer

it's kinda dark in there......right?

and if the Spirit would speak to answer your prayer
would you stay in the closet?

But what I'm saying is that if one believes God exists, then what existence does God inhabit? For something to exist they must abide by the rules of that existence. Even God.

Just want to say I'm not discounting anything here, whether God or science. Just a curious mind

 

[Thief]

I've seen a theoretical physicist make demonstration.....
with an equation on the board that ends with ….infinity plus infinity plus infinity........
infinitely

he then strikes a thoughtful pose for the camera as he self narrates....
Physicists have a problem with infinity

 

[Thief]

But what I'm saying is that if one believes God exists, then what existence does God inhabit? For something to exist they must abide by the rules of that existence. Even God.

Just want to say I'm not discounting anything here, whether God or science. Just a curious mind

your first line displays why God
does not answer prayers by shifting reality

and the devil said to Him.....
if you BE the son of God
step from this high place and the angels will catch your fall

the Carpenter didn't fall for that one

neither will I

 

[Twilight Hue]

Many, by observing nature, see it as extremely complex and orderly. And they use the analogy, that since we do not know of anything in the world that looks designed but isn't designed, then there must be a design behind creation. Also we know that in the real world " nothing comes from nothing" (ammended: Everything in existence comes into existence from an already existing material), therefore everything had to come from something and had to be created.

Lets give them that that analogy is true for arguments sake.

But if analogy works for there being an intelligent designer then surely I can use analogy to carry the logical conclusion further.

From analogy we could deduce that the world has AT LEAST one designer. Since we know that complex designed things in this world are not necessarily the result of one persons designs. With regards to video games, in which whole worlds are created, multiple people are employed to create one of these games (world). Therefore to say that the world was designed answers that there was at least one designer but possibly and most likely (due to the complexity of creating complex video game worlds) multiple designers, hence multiple Gods. Through analogy I would think that it is most likely that multiple Gods exist rather than one.

Also, the analogy that nothing comes from nothing in the real world (ammended: Everything in existence comes into existence from an already existing material), concludes that everything had to have been made from an eternal material as well, since nothing just pops out of thin air and everything is constructed from existing materials. So using this analogy, there has to either exist an eternal material apart from the God(s) that he/she/it created the world from or everything existed was made using the being of the God(s), therefore everything is the God(s).

Is this use of analogy logical and consistent with the usual use of analogy to prove that an intelligent designer exists? And if it is logical then why wouldn't this logic refute your beliefs like some explain that the use of these types of analogies logically refute the argument that a God doesn't exist?

(Correct me if I am understanding the ID argumentation wrong)

You , we, I don't know that.

I'm convinced we live in a continuum. There's an infinite component negating any beginning or end involving all dimensions that we are aware of.

It's a pretty safe bet to say you will never get to the beginning or to the end of anything in a continuum. Just the beginning and end of form and energy that we are familiar with.

It's what the concept of God is based on whereas the rest of the universe is indifferent with such concepts.

 

[Aman Uensis]

Physicists have a problem with infinity

And so does God, as I've demonstrated. Which suggests to me that infinity may be greater than God and science. Or that it at least renders the point moot. After all, if we achieved the purpose of life then there would be no point in going on would there? So there can be no absolute truths in order to keep the machine that is existence going.

All I'm saying is that maybe God is far more than what we've been led to believe. If there is one. Or two or three. I don't wish to hijack this thread so I'll probably start my own on this subject sometime. Thanks to the original poster for such an inquisitive post!

 

[Thief]

After all, if we achieved the purpose of life then there would be no point in going on would there?

I have an answer for that

but do your fresh post

 

[osgart]

God booted up the universe with DOS 1.0, we are nothing more than updated files in a sub directory.

I like the idea that if existence exists then there can't be non existence within the existence, so infinity is a natural result within any existence.

Whether the universe is neverending the same as it is in our part of it is up for debate. To me we live on a knifes edge within a one time event of existence in the narrowest of windows. So a billion years would be fleeting though it is extremely long for humans.

Any thoughts on why God would make our predicament as it is would be of interest.

Our universe definetly seems to me like it is on a one way trip. No possibility of it returning to its original state or any state like that.

If existence is not self perpetuating then perhaps what lies beyond our existence is perpetual. Because non existence is an impossibility for things that fundamentally exist. And existence can't come from non existence.

Does our existence exist fundamentally? My guess is no. I tend to perceive the universe as in a highly stable phase of existence whereas billions of years from now it will become unstable. I bet the stability we experience on Earth is nothing more than a phase that eventually ends. And then perhaps the rules of physics will one day be no more.

So timing is everything for the existence of life. But then one can argue that wherever the opportunity for life exists life will definetly arise, and our specialness isn't as special as some might perceive it.

Its mysteries all the way down, and definetly not turtles.

 

[Samael_Khan]

science is seeking the answers to the questions you ask
so far......no luck

for now....we get to wait for the last breath
God and heaven will appear to see whatever stood from the dust
THEN you ask Him.....to His Face

If a God does exist, it would be interesting for him to answer these questions if I ever meet him.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Infinity also poses some questions for this argument as well. When scientists propose theories for the universe having come into being from nothing, their "nothing" is still something. Whether it's a vacuum or a void, there is still something. But I've been trying to take it one step further and imagine a state of non-existence. Does anyone think this could be possible? There being no such reality or fabric of reality or existence to speak of. Me personally, I think not. Because then we really could say that nothing comes from nothing which in itself might be a paradox if considering non-existence because something has to exist in the first place.

And now I've gone and confused myself...

But I do think infinity is something more than it seems. Something to do with God, science and existence itself.

I think our imagination is limiting. It is cool to comprehend possibilities, but at bets the theories about God are possibilities and we shouldn't say that one possibility is definitely true. In reality we just have too little information to know these things.

The thought experiments are fun though. I often get confused myself.

 

[Samael_Khan]

You , we, I don't know that.

I'm convinced we live in a continuum. There's an infinite component negating any beginning or end involving all dimensions that we are aware of.

It's a pretty safe bet to say you will never get to the beginning or to the end of anything in a continuum. Just the beginning and end of form and energy that we are familiar with.

It's what the concept of God is based on whereas the rest of the universe is indifferent with such concepts.

I agree that we don't know. But intelligent design proponents say that we do know through logic. But I think that their method inevitably should lead them to other conclusions that negates their own view, which is what I am exploring.

 

[Aman Uensis]

So using this analogy, there has to either exist an eternal material apart from the God(s) that he/she/it created the world from or everything existed was made using the being of the God(s), therefore everything is the God(s

This goes to the heart of what I am saying. The inference that God must exist on some kind of external material (a canvas so to speak), doesn't necessarily preclude or negate the existence of God. Just that there is something more than God. At least the God we have come to know as God. A computer programmer (or a team) that creates a digital world determines the rules of said world and is essentially a God to that world, but inhabits their own world with its own set of rules. Like you say, God could be everything and my logical mind is much more inclined to believe in a more universalist being than the traditional paternal one.

A creator of any kind creates from what they know. And if God created the Devil then it means the Devil was already in God to begin with.

 

[Samael_Khan]

This goes to the heart of what I am saying. The inference that God must exist on some kind of external material (a canvas so to speak), doesn't necessarily preclude or negate the existence of God. Just that there is something more than God. At least the God we have come to know as God. A computer programmer (or a team) that creates a digital world determines the rules of said world and is essentially a God to that world, but inhabits their own world with its own set of rules. Like you say, God could be everything and my logical mind is much more inclined to believe in a more universalist being than the traditional paternal one.

A creator of any kind creates from what they know. And if God created the Devil then it means the Devil was already in God to begin with.

I fully agree with this.

 

[McBell]

Many, by observing nature, see it as extremely complex and orderly. And they use the analogy, that since we do not know of anything in the world that looks designed but isn't designed, then there must be a design behind creation. Also we know that in the real world " nothing comes from nothing" (ammended: Everything in existence comes into existence from an already existing material), therefore everything had to come from something and had to be created.

Lets give them that that analogy is true for arguments sake.

But if analogy works for there being an intelligent designer then surely I can use analogy to carry the logical conclusion further.

From analogy we could deduce that the world has AT LEAST one designer. Since we know that complex designed things in this world are not necessarily the result of one persons designs. With regards to video games, in which whole worlds are created, multiple people are employed to create one of these games (world). Therefore to say that the world was designed answers that there was at least one designer but possibly and most likely (due to the complexity of creating complex video game worlds) multiple designers, hence multiple Gods. Through analogy I would think that it is most likely that multiple Gods exist rather than one.

Also, the analogy that nothing comes from nothing in the real world (ammended: Everything in existence comes into existence from an already existing material), concludes that everything had to have been made from an eternal material as well, since nothing just pops out of thin air and everything is constructed from existing materials. So using this analogy, there has to either exist an eternal material apart from the God(s) that he/she/it created the world from or everything existed was made using the being of the God(s), therefore everything is the God(s).

Is this use of analogy logical and consistent with the usual use of analogy to prove that an intelligent designer exists? And if it is logical then why wouldn't this logic refute your beliefs like some explain that the use of these types of analogies logically refute the argument that a God doesn't exist?

(Correct me if I am understanding the ID argumentation wrong)

It is merely a variation of the "Life has to come from life" claim.
Which is fine until the one making the claim makes an exception for their god.

Same with the "Nothing from nothing" claim.
It is fine until the god exception.

Which, at least in my mind, shoots a hole in the argument big enough to put the universe through.

 

[Thief]

If a God does exist, it would be interesting for him to answer these questions if I ever meet him.

if God exists?

are you assuming a lack of faith will prevent meeting Him?

I believe God and heaven are willing to wait until your last breath
and then see whatever stands from the dust

whether you believe or not

if you don't believe.....well then
I believe you have a surprise coming your way