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Featured The Gospel and the Torah, the Quran, Christian, Bahai, and other apologetics.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, May 2, 2021.

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  1. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    You are correct about that. According to protestant, catholic and ortodox christianity the other gospels that exist is heretic
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Muslims believe believe in "THE GOSPEL". The Injeel. It is not the four books in the New Testament.

    These four books are not named Gospel by the authors. It is named by the collector and that is internal evidence. If you read the four gospels in the NT, it would say "Jesus preached the Gospel". That means Jesus was preaching the Gospel, not referring to these four Gospels.

    The Gospel the Quran refers to is the message or revelation Jesus was given. Not the books in the New Testament canon.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    They dont even claim that "Jesus was given the four canonical gospels". They claim that they were written by people, although inspired. That is their claim.
     
  4. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    So you believe the orginal Gospel Jesus was given is not in the Bible today?
     
  5. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    Yes thats true
     
  6. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    What do you think of the Baha'i faith?
     
  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    This is the orthodox Muslim belief. Also, by using the singular Injeel, and the use of the word Furqan in the Quran, it is indicating clearly that it is not referring to the Bible at all.

    So yes is the answer to your question sis.
     
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  8. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    I see. Then i learned something new today :blush:
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    The Bahai faith is a fairly new faith begun by Abdul Baha, who is the son of Bahaullah the theology is named after. It arose with a revolutionary called Shiraz who called himself the Bab, which means doorway, gateway, opening for an entrance from one place to another. Anyway, he inherited certain beliefs that existed in the Shii theology since he is from Iran.

    Anyway, to cut things short, their theology is based on Bahaullah who is Abdul Baha's father being the coming Mahdi, Who is only mentioned in some hadith coming from the Al Thalitha (Salisa) hadith which means other party or third party hadith, and the Qaim, which is not Quranic. I just mentioned that because you are believing in the Quranic Islamic theology.

    This is a whole other topic sis. Its a huge topic. :)
     
  10. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

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    You know alot about Baha'i. Do you read much about different religions?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Oh. I read on the Bahai faith because it was the Bahai's here who taught me their religion about a year or two ago. But I must say that their literature is too big and too much to be expert on them. Maybe a little similar to Judaism who also have like a humungous amount of literature. My God. You can never begin or end with Judaism.

    But the Bahai faith comes up in every nook and corner of this forum. So this frequency of their posts mentioning Bahaullah and their faith everywhere in this forum kind of triggered us to read. And yes, I read some. The difficulty with the Bahai faith is that its very difficult to get manuscript evidences, dating, and original scripts. Though I have a collection of some in the original script, like the Bayan of Shiraz, the Kithab al Akdhas, and some other books. Very intriguing and very interesting.
     
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  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Many Muslims do not believe the Bible is legitimate, and do not care to even read them. But I dont think this is the position of the Quran, or instruction of Muhammad. On the contrary the Bible current among Jews and Christians is confirmed as legitimate in the Quran, and Hadith. I believe The world-wide Muslim community interpretations is incorrect and that comes from their clergy.
     
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  13. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Nope. I've long concluded this for myself. Would be nice if some Muslims also realized this and stopped trying to prove that Muhammed is mentioned in the Tanach.
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    While I agree with you in principle, this is the issue,

    Sahih International: Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honoured him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. (7:157)

    The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
     
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  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Yeah. I will try to tell them all.
     
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  16. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

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    Torah in Islam - Wikipedia

    The Wikipedia article disagrees with your statement. I am not sufficiently well versed to argue with Wikipedia on this topic. But I suggest that you edit Wikipedia.
     
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  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I am not interested in editing Wikipedia Clara Tea. If you have some points to discuss, and if you have some scripture to back up what you are saying it is great. But just saying "This website disagrees with you" without knowing the nuances, and telling others to "Edit this website" is not good discussion. It is just appealing to authority, a logical fallacy.
     
  18. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    It seems to me, from comparing the alternate translations, and per the OP, that according to Muslims, when the Quran was written, the Thaurath and the Injeel still existed, and those are what's referred to here.
     
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  19. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Seems odd to me that their god would then let these disappear but leave this verse :shrug: and it's clear many Muslims seem to think they can still find Muhammad in both.
     
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  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Yeah. You are mistaking Islamic theology, the Quran and what Muslims apologetics say on the internet.

    If you wish to have a "Their God vs our God" discussion, you very well could and lets do that. But when you make statements sis, make them with some critical thought and clarification. Not from what "some muslims you know believe". And if you have heard some Muslim apologists and believe "they are absolutely correct" then sis you should accept all apologetics without question. And I know that you are way above that level of intellect.

    The verse you are referring to in the Quran is speaking of the Thaurath and the Injeel. Not the Bible. If you want to discuss if this idea that the Thaurath or/and the Injeel are not referring to the Bible is wrong, then you are more than welcome. But please try to understand the Quran, even if its wrong. When you understand it, then you can question its authenticity, veracity, correctness, whatever you want from a theological or naturalistic platform. No problem.

    But dont just make side remarks based on what you have heard some apologists say on line or somewhere else. I hope you understand.
     
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