1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The Gospel and the Torah, the Quran, Christian, Bahai, and other apologetics.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, May 2, 2021.

?
  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Other

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    So you said "this is not the issue" very confidently. That means you know exactly this issue very well.

    Can you please explain why this verse is speaking of Injeel in the singular? Is it referring to the Injeel as in the message of Jesus which you yourself considered is one Gospel and is referred to in the singular? Or is it referring to the one particular Gospel out of the canonical four?
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    Those Muslims don't just get their ideas from nowhere. They read the Quran and see it says that they will find Muhammad in their scriptures and that is exactly what many of them attempt to do. It says he will be found in the Torah and the Gospel and what else are we meant to think these texts are? How can we no longer have them? We have copies of the Gospel that are older than Muhammad. There's no argument to what the Gospel is and if the Quran wants to refer to some made up Gospel it can do so but in that case no-one has to take it seriously. If it's not referring to the Torah and Gospel that we have then this verse and other verses mentioning them are completely useless. It seems stupid to me to claim the Quran is talking about something else when the most obvious explanation is that it's referring to the Torah and the Gospel.
     
    #42 Rival, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    So basically you agree with these Muslims right? Do you agree with them completely or only partially? Do you agree with them in everything or just this one verse and their idea they possess about the Taurath?
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    Yes, as I've already said, Christians call it the Gospel all the damn time. I live in a Christian county I know this well. It's clearly something they've been saying for a very long time because it comes right from the books themselves. The books say this is what the Gospel is. Get to your point. What are you trying to argue? That there's some other Gospel that the Christians just all somehow forgot?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    Dude I can't be bothered with this. Just straight up tell me what you think the verse means and we can go from there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    You missed the question completely.

    SO since you agree that the Quran is speaking of the message like the Christians call it "the gospel", is this verse referring to this "message" or one of the four gospels?

    Please try and understand the question.
     
  7. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    It says this

    Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel,

    What do you make of this?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    If you are not bothered, that's your prerogative. The question was asked because your response was "because others say so".

    Let me ask this question. The Quran says that "So woe to those who write the book with their hands then say, "This is from God," so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have gained. - 2:79.

    Do you understand this passage? It spoke of people who dont know the scripture but by hearsay just previously, then in this verse it says that people write the book with their own hands and say this if from God.

    This is the Quranic premise. What do you understand from that?
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    This isn't even the same surah. Here is the context for 7, which no doubt you know.

    156. And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have turned unto You." He said: (As to) My Punishment I afflict therewith whom I will and My Mercy embraces all things. That (Mercy) I shall ordain for those who are the Muttaqun (pious - see V.2:2), and give Zakat; and those who believe in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs and revelations, etc.);

    157. Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad ) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16) , - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad ), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur'an) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful .

    158. Say (O Muhammad ): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah - to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He); It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad ) who believes in Allah and His Words [(this Qur'an), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allah's Word: "Be!" - and he was, i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary),], and follow him so that you may be guided. "

    159. And of the people of Musa (Moses) there is a community who lead (the men) with truth and establish justice therewith (i.e. judge men with truth and justice).

    160. And We divided them into twelve tribes (as distinct) nations. We directed Musa (Moses) by inspiration, when his people asked him for water, (saying): "Strike the stone with your stick", and there gushed forth out of it twelve springs: each group knew its own place for water. We shaded them with the clouds and sent down upon them Al-Manna and the quails (saying): "Eat of the good things with which We have provided you." They harmed Us not but they used to harm themselves.

    161. And (remember) when it was said to them: "Dwell in this town (Jerusalem) and eat therefrom wherever you wish, and say, '(O Allah) forgive our sins'; and enter the gate prostrate (bowing with humility). We shall forgive you your wrong-doings. We shall increase (the reward) for the good-doers."

    162. But those among them who did wrong changed the word that had been told to them. So We sent on them a torment from heaven in return for their wrong-doings.

    163. And ask them (O Muhammad ) about the town that was by the sea, when they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday): when their fish came to them openly on the Sabbath day, and did not come to them on the day they had no Sabbath. Thus We made a trial of them for they used to rebel (see the Qur'an: V.4:154).

    164. And when a community among them said: "Why do you preach to a people whom Allah is about to destroy or to punish with a severe torment?" (The preachers) said: "In order to be free from guilt before your Lord (Allah), and perhaps they may fear Allah."

    165. So when they forgot the remindings that had been given to them, We rescued those who forbade evil, but We seized those who did wrong with a severe torment because they used to rebel (disobey Allah).

    166. So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected." (It is a severe warning to the mankind that they should not disobey what Allah commands them to do, and be far away from what He prohibits them).

    167. And (remember) when your Lord declared that He would certainly keep on sending against them (i.e. the Jews), till the Day of Resurrection, those who would afflict them with a humiliating torment. Verily, your Lord is Quick in Retribution (for the disobedient, wicked) and certainly He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (for the obedient and those who beg Allah's Forgiveness).

    168. And We have broken them (i.e. the Jews) up into various separate groups on the earth, some of them are righteous and some are away from that. And We tried them with good (blessings) and evil (calamities) in order that they might turn (to Allah's Obedience).

    169. Then after them succeeded an (evil) generation, which inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the goods of this low life (evil pleasures of this world) saying (as an excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven to us." And if (again) the offer of the like (evil pleasures of this world) came their way, they would (again) seize them (would commit those sins). Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they would not say about Allah anything but the truth? And they have studied what is in it (the Book). And the home of the Hereafter is better for those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2). Do not you then understand?

    170. And as to those who hold fast to the Book (i.e. act on its teachings) and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), certainly, We shall never waste the reward of those who do righteous deeds.

    171. And (remember) when We raised the mountain over them as if it had been a canopy, and they thought that it was going to fall on them. (We said): "Hold firmly to what We have given you [i.e. the Taurat (Torah)], and remember that which is therein (act on its commandments), so that you may fear Allah and obey Him."

    This talks continuously about the Israelites and even mentions the story of the mountain being held over their heads. Ayah 170 is in the present tense encouraging the Jews to act on what their book tells them to do. It says those who did wrong 'changed the word' from which I take to mean their own behaviours, because the ayat surrounding this one still speak as though the Jews have their scriptures (as have the Christians) and are exhorted to follow them. The other verses also makes clear their behaviours were evil, but that they have studied the book. The next verse then tells them to hold fast to the book. This also is repeated in other ayat.
     
    #49 Rival, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    But @firedragon I am not continuing until you show me your hand. What do you believe these verses mean when they refer to those books?
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    Thats irrelevant.

    If you wish to discuss this, and verse 170 saying "those who adhere to the book", and the Iqamath assalath, you should explain how the Quran speaks to Jews and tells them to do Salat. ;)
     
  12. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    19,719
    Ratings:
    +27,760
    Religion:
    Kemetic Pagan
    Yes. As we both know Salat means a kind of prayer and the Jews have set prayers. So of course it tells them to do Salat. This word isn't limited to Muslims.

    And from this I understand you aren't going to give me an answer, so we're done.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    Oh, please dont continue until I answer your question. The thing is, only now you have asked a question. Earlier you were not. Please be a bit patient, you will not lose anything.

    So to this question.

    This says "Indhahum", as in what they have left with them. In what they have left of the Taurat, they will find it written. This does not mean, they have the whole of the Taurat in a written form.

    Also, how in the world have you concluded the Quran speaks of a written Torah? It only speaks of people writing books on their own and claiming its from God.

    Consider this, and then make your next response.
     
  14. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2020
    Messages:
    946
    Ratings:
    +710
    Religion:
    Monotheist
    Firedragon believe that the real gospel from Jesus is lost. And that the real Torah and Tanakh is lost too.
    @firedragon correct me if i'm wrong

    But very many muslims do believe the opposite of Firedragon. Many muslims do believe the Bible today is what the Quran is refrencing too. You are correct Rival that many muslims believe Muhammad's name is written in the Bible
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    Oh. If you are done its your prerogative. Perfectly yours.

    But you would note, that if you had a little bit of patience, the answer is given.
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    No sis. Thats wrong. Most muslims if not all dont believe the books in the Bible are referred to in the Quran. In fact, I have never in my life met a single muslim who believes the books referred to in the Quran are in the Bible.

    What Muslims believe is that the Bible has some things still left from the original message of God. Some remnants are still there.

    I hope you understand.
     
  17. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2020
    Messages:
    946
    Ratings:
    +710
    Religion:
    Monotheist
    Yes most muslims believe the Bible is a little corrupted.

    But they still believe the Torah and gospels the Quran is refrencing to is in the Bible. Thats why they believe Muhammad's name can be found in the Bible.

    You believe the opposite of those muslims. You believe the gospels and Torah the Quran refrence to is completly lost today. You believe the Bible today is not God's real word at all.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    Sis. You quoted it. It says "Iqamat assalat" which is the exact text from your own cut and paste. So please dont just say "salat means a kind of prayer". This, is another whole topic and I dont think you should make arbitrary statements like that.

    Anyway, since you brought this up, this verse speaks of a book. The Quran begins the 2nd chapter with "Zalikal Kithab". This is the book. That means it is referring to the Quran.

    Or, do you believe that when the Quran says "people of the book" it is specifically referring to the Taurat? Is not it referring to the Christians as well? What about the other scripture that the Quran mentions that was given to Abraham and Musa? How about this verse?

    Say, "We acknowledge God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit peacefully. - 2:136

    How did you infer that the reference to "Kithab" means "Taurat"? Did you consider that the Quran speaks of so many scripture? And when it speaks of the Taurat, how about the revelations given to Abraham and Moses? Quran says "Suhufi ibrahima wa moosa". What about them? What about the scripture given to Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus?

    Think about it.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    10,781
    Ratings:
    +2,942
    Can you quote me a few Muslim scholars or Muslim writings that say this? Because honestly, in my life, I have never come across any learned or even a sophomore believe this. So please quote me.

    Thank you.
     
  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    7,081
    Ratings:
    +2,293
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes, exactly. Specially eastern Christians, call the whole New Testament, "Injil", or Gospel in a singular form. When Muhammad says Gospel in Quran, He must mean, what the Christians Mean by the Gospel, which is the whole NT.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
Loading...