"The god of this age"

[WyattDerp]

So, if the Mirror says, I am the Sun it is True.

No. A symbol is not the thing. But then again you said "True" and not "true", maybe you didn't mean to say it's actually true...

* How we confuse symbols and things

Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Blight":

Give me truths;
For I am weary of the surfaces,
And die of inanition. If I knew
Only the herbs and simples of the wood,
Rue, cinquefoil, gill, vervain and agrimony,
Blue-vetch and trillium, hawkweed, sassafras,
Milkweeds and murky brakes, quaint pipes and sun-dew,
And rare and virtuous roots, which in these woods
Draw untold juices from the common earth,
Untold, unknown, and I could surely spell
Their fragrance, and their chemistry apply
By sweet affinities to human flesh,
Driving the foe and stablishing the friend,--
O, that were much, and I could be a part
Of the round day, related to the sun
And planted world, and full executor
Of their imperfect functions.
But these young scholars, who invade our hills,
Bold as the engineer who fells the wood,
And traveling often in the cut he makes,
Love not the flower they pluck, and know it not,
And all their botany is Latin names.
The old men studied magic in the flowers,
And human fortunes in astronomy,
And an omnipotence in chemistry,
Preferring things to names, for these were men,
Were unitarians of the united world,
And, wheresoever their clear eye-beams fell,
They caught the footsteps of the SAME. Our eyes
And strangers to the mystic beast and bird,
And strangers to the plant and to the mine.
The injured elements say, 'Not in us;'
And haughtily return us stare for stare.
For we invade them impiously for gain;
We devastate them unreligiously,
And coldly ask their pottage, not their love.
Therefore they shove us from them, yield to us
Only what to our griping toil is due;
But the sweet affluence of love and song,
The rich results of the divine consents
Of man and earth, of world beloved and lover,
The nectar and ambrosia, are withheld;
And in the midst of spoils and slaves, we thieves
And pirates of the universe, shut out
Daily to a more thin and outward rind,
Turn pale and starve. Therefore, to our sick eyes,
The stunted trees look sick, the summer short,
Clouds shade the sun, which will not tan our hay,
And nothing thrives to reach its natural term;
And life, shorn of its venerable length,
Even at its greatest space is a defeat,
And dies in anger that it was a dupe;
And, in its highest noon and wantonness,
Is early frugal, like a beggar's child;
Even in the hot pursuit of the best aims
And prizes of ambition, checks its hand,
Like Alpine cataracts frozen as they leaped,
Chilled with a miserly comparison
Of the toy's purchase with the length of life.

*sigh*

We don't even have poets worth **** anymore.

 

[Shermana]

The satan is symbolic representation of selfish desires.
I think John said such things "selfish forces". I don't remember the exact verse.

Okay, so would you like to answer what I asked about what its meaning in Job would be?

An Age in the holy Books is the time between Two Divine Prophet.
For example, between Moses and Jesus was one Age (about 1500 years).
(on average about 1000 years)

Where does it say this is the length?

So, from Adam till Noah was one age. From Noah to Abraham another Age. From Abraham to Moses another Age.
Each Age starts with appearance of a Manifestation of God, such as Abraham, or Noah, or Adam.

Now Abraham is a "Manifestation" too? There is nothing that indicates an "Age" is such a 1000-1500 year time period.

Let's go back to the Analogy of the Mirror and the Sun.
If a Perfect Mirror is placed in front of the Sun, what do we see in the Mirror?
We see the Sun. So, if the Mirror says, I am the Sun it is True. and if the Mirror says, I am the Mirror, and the Sun is in sky, that is also True.
That is why, Jesus said "who ever has seen Me, has seen the Father", but also He alluded to Himself as a Prophet, and said the Father is greater than I.

Jesus was the representation of the Father but not the Father himself. That does not make him a manifestation.

"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world." - Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

It appears Baha'ullah had his own definition of "Manifestation" that differs from standard English usage. Perhaps in Farsi or whatever he spoke the word translates to something else.

Here is the difference:
each one of us is like a mirror. but a Divine Prophet is a "perfectly polished Mirror", an spotless Mirror, that can perfectly and fully Manifest the Will and attributes of God to the World.
So, in this analogy, we are not perfectly clean mirrors, that fully reflects the Attributes of God.
Hence the scripture calls Jesus "image of God", but it also says God created all of us in His Own image.
The difference is the Divine Prophets are embodiment of Holy Spirit. We are not. But if we clean Our Heart, and become more detached from Worldly things, then the Mirror of our Heart can reflect the attributes of God better and better.

In addition to having a strange use of "Manifestation", what does "embodiment" mean in your special use of the terms? Do you believe the attributes of God change over the "ages"?

It seems to me, you might have thought, "incarnation" is the same as "manifestation". If that's the case, then I have to say, these are two different things. Jesus was not incarnation of God. But He was a Perfect Mirror, that Manifested the Image of God.

And it seems to me you have a different idea of what "manifestation" and "manifested" means than what standard English uses it as.

Yes, Moses was also a Manifestation of God.

I am not sure what you mean by "Divine Logos incarnated".

Do I have to get into the Memra/Logos Theology here too?

I guess you are arguing about the word.

Indeed. If you're using a strange semantic to discredit a valid interpretation of scripture, then there will be argument.

No a mirror is not manifestation by itself. But when it is placed in front of the Sun, then the Sun is "Manifested" in the Mirror. Hence it becomes a Manifestation of the Sun.

A reflection is not the manifestation of the object being reflected.

This why Jesus said "I am not Good, only God is Good"
Can be understood as, Jesus by Himself is not Good, but since He manifests the image of God, then He is God (Good).

No, he's saying that only God is good. That verse does not have any implication that Jesus is declaring to be God. This is comparable to how badly Trinitarians twist verses.

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” - Baha'u'llah

Okay, so Baha'ullah believed he was God, great. That doesn't change the actual meaning of the Scripture in question.

Yes, he does. That is why Jesus annulled some of the Laws of Moses. such as "whoever breaks the Sabbath shall be put to death"

Nope, as I've argued countless times on the forum, Jesus did NOT annul or change some of the laws, what he was annulling was Pharisee misinterpretations. Otherwise, he'd be not only contradicting himself but he'd be being a false prophet. I don't want to have to turn this into another argument on what Jesus meant when he said it wasn't a sin to heal on the Sabbath, which today even modern Jews agree on. Jesus said anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the Kingdom. He said not one jot or iota of the Law shall be broken. Jesus did not break the Sabbath just because the Pharisees accused him of it, likewise, he was not using Demonic powers just because they accused him of it. He was explaining what was and wasn't allowed since the beginning.

He also changed many other teachings.

Again, no he did not, as I've argued more times than I can remember about this on this forum alone, he was arguing against wrong Pharisee interpretations of the Law and explaining what Moses meant from the beginning.

Does the Scriptures says, that "prince of this world" is Satan? or that is the mainstream interpretation again?

You're the one who said that Prince of this world was the same as Prince of the air. There's a reason in this particular instance why its the mainstream interpretation. I don't always agree with the mainstream interpretation on critical doctrinal verses, but on this one, Jesus's words are pretty clear. I think I explained why it would be strange to assume he'd be remaining silent regarding a being that would NOT be coming against him, and 1800 years later, and not immediately.

"There will be rumors of war" is part of the signs that must happen right before the second coming of Christ. and in Baha'i View that was fulfilled before and early 19th century. (There was many many wars, king against king, nation against nation)

And the "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" is about Jesus's words that are going to start fights between believers in the various Jewish sects.

Because I am not arguing who this verse is addressing. What I am discussing is who is "God of the Age"

You just said earlier that it relates to Jesus saying that he has come to make those who think they see blind.

But generally, I think the verse is not limited to only Pharisees, but also all their likes, who even exist today. In general anyone who does not clean the Mirror of His Heart, becomes blind in a spiritual sense

And who exactly was the message intended for? Are those who are blinded those who are already blinded by their own intellectual dishonesty?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay, so would you like to answer what I asked about what its meaning in Job would be?

Briefly in My view that is a whole symbolic story to teach that we should not blame God for things. It's not like there was actually a person Satan talking with another person, Lord. Job also, although in part of the story is a reference to the Prophet Job who was righteous, but also in part of the story may represent People of Job. So, the scriptures is using this indirect addressing, to use Job as expression of His people, who were blaming God.
But I feel that is whole different topic....

Where does it say this is the length?

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Peter 3:9 (also in Psalm)

Day of Lord, in my view, is a Term that is used, for appearance of Manifestations of God, in every about a 1000 years.
The Six day of creation of Adam, in Baha'i View, is 6000 years spiritual creation of human civilization, from Adam till year 1844, when the Bab appeared on the seventh day.

Now Abraham is a "Manifestation" too? There is nothing that indicates an "Age" is such a 1000-1500 year time period.

Well, Jesus said, before Abraham He existed. That means, that His type existed, not that He Himself physically existed. Type is the Manifestation of God, which is a different creation that regular human beings.
If the rose flower that exist this spring, says, I was last spring too, that doesn't mean, itself with the same particle existed, but it is the same type that was last spring.

Jesus was the representation of the Father but not the Father himself.

Depends what you mean by representation.
I would say, He was representative of God, in a sense that He was given Authority to act on behalf of God.

But let's say, if we draw the picture of the Sun, then we have an image or representation of the Sun. But that is not the relation between Divine Prophet and God for the light of the Sun is not reflected by a picture or representation. But if we use a Mirror, then the light is reflected. Hence the Manifestation is a better term.

That does not make him a manifestation.

Depends how you define Manifestation. If to you Mean Manifestation as in incarnation, then you are right. See below from dictionary:

It appears Baha'ullah had his own definition of "Manifestation" that differs from standard English usage. Perhaps in Farsi or whatever he spoke the word translates to something else.

I think the Word Manifestation is a very Good Translation of the Word "Mazhar".
Let's go back to your dictionary:
"An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something"
manifest - definition of manifest by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

" To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal"

Since when a divine Prophet appears, the Will and attributes of God are revealed and demonstrated through them, they are called the Manifestation of God. Since the coming of a divine Prophet is the indication of reality of God, they are called Manifestation.


Now, the difference between God and His Manifestation is this:

In the Divine Prophet, the Attributes and Will of God are fully manifested, but NOT the essence of God. That means, the essence of God is different than Manifestations. God is infinitely higher than Manifestations.

Similar to comparing the Image of the Sun in Mirror, with Sun Itself.


These are the usage of the Word:

"He manifested his character in his behaviour."

That means that for example, God has certain attributes, such as "Power, Glory, Kindness, Patience, Justness, ..."
These attributes are revealed into the World through His Divine Manifestations, who are His Mirrors.

In addition to having a strange use of "Manifestation", what does "embodiment" mean in your special use of the terms?

Well, when I said embodiment, i didn't mean literally.
According to this terminology that Spirit is inside the Body, then Our Body is the embodiment of the Spirit. But for Manifestations of God, they are the embodiment of Holy Spirit, which is a higher creation than spirit.
But in reality, the spirit is not a physical thing of any form and is not literally inside the Body. For example, it is said "Love" is in the Heart. But it is not really inside the Heart physically.

Do you believe the attributes of God change over the "ages"?

No, God is Absolute Perfection, and there is no change in God. He can neither get better, nor get worst. "I am what I am"

Do I have to get into the Memra/Logos Theology here too?

Not that if you don't feel like.

No, he's saying that only God is good. That verse does not have any implication that Jesus is declaring to be God. This is comparable to how badly Trinitarians twist verses.

That's right. I think you misunderstood me. Since I agree with what you say.

Okay, so Baha'ullah believed he was God, great. That doesn't change the actual meaning of the Scripture in question.

No, He did not. People of His time thought He claimed to be God, and He responded to them:

“Certain ones among you, have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.’ By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs... My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will.... I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors....” Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, p. 228.

Nope, as I've argued countless times on the forum, Jesus did NOT annul or change some of the laws, what he was annulling was Pharisee misinterpretations.

Then I won't argue since you seem to have done too much about this before.
What about the Law of divorce? and How about, the Law of Noah, Abraham comparing to Moses Law?

You're the one who said that Prince of this world was the same as Prince of the air.

No, Prince of this world is Not the same as Prince of the air. "Prince of the air" is the evilness in the World. Prince of the World in our View is Baha'u'llah

And who exactly was the message intended for? Are those who are blinded those who are already blinded by their own intellectual dishonesty?

I think the Message is Primarily for the Divines of the Age. The Clergy who before the coming of the Manifestation, are considered Seeing. They are considered Seeing, because, they are learned among people.
So, for example, Before Jesus comes, the Jewish Divines were considered the Seeing. Before Baha'u'llah comes, the Muslim Clergy were considered Seeing.
But for example, before Jesus starts His mission, Peter was only a Fisher Man. He was not a learned. Likewise there was even a Prostitute. These were blinds. But when Jesus came, those who were blind, became Seeing, since they believed in Him, and those divines who were seeing, were considered blinds in the sight of God. What caused those Seeing to become blind, was their "Pride".

In fact the story of Satan, means, that even if a human is as good as He can be, to the Level of an Angel, if "Pride" takes over him, He can turn to an evil person.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

....that Jesus himself has blinded people for merely being "insincere" which is not so much indicated in the text as much as non-believers in general, which would by your own logic only apply to the Pharisees and no other unbeliever or insincere believer.

How did Jesus or the God of the Age blinded the unbelievers?
I think this verse is primarily indented for the Divines of the Age.

The parabol of the Ignorant Divines of the Age, is that of a Bat.
The parabol of the guidance from God is the Light of the Sun.
When the Light comes, the Bats do not like to face the Sun. Since these Divines has been the leaders and became famous for their knowledge among people, when the Promised one comes Who is the Source of Light of knowledge, these Divines don't like a new man takes their place of leadership and fame. Therefore they who are like the Bats hate the Light and go into their own darkness of ignorance, and do not see the Truth that has come, hence the Good News (Gospel) of Coming of the Sun of Truth have caused their mind to be blinded:

"The God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 cor. 4:4

The Satan is not a real existence. In my view the idea that there is a Satan who goes inside the body, and influences people is a mere superstitious due to misinterpretations.

 

[CG Didymus]

The biggest prove is that Religion must be in harmony with science and logic.

When was any religion in harmony with science and logic? And, when was, man's science and logic, in harmony with religion? The extremes of one seem to take us away from belief in the other. (Which I think that is what Baha'is believe. The extremes of either are bad). Like with the Christian vs. science debate now dealing with creation vs. evolution. Where do Baha'is stand? With the Christians and their God or the atheistic scientists that logically and scientifically wants to eliminate god from the equation? Is science right? Are Christians?

In post 40 you said,

An Age in the holy Books is the time between Two Divine Prophet.
For example, between Moses and Jesus was one Age (about 1500 years).
(on average about 1000 years)

So, from Adam till Noah was one age. From Noah to Abraham another Age. From Abraham to Moses another Age.
Each Age starts with appearance of a Manifestation of God, such as Abraham, or Noah, or Adam.

Huge problem, (not to mention they all said different things, so they reflected a different "god")if all the main characters from the Hebrew Scriptures are "manifestations" than what about the main characters in all religions, since Baha'is believe all of them to be sent from God? Just to add in the some of the big names from other religions messes with the 1000 year "age" thing. So we add in Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, etc. How about prophets from China and Egypt and other countries and civilizations? How does the age thing work then? But then what about minor prophets? If the others are big mirrors, what are they? Like a ladies compact?

Shermana made a great point in post 39,

...the Devil may not be a part of MODERN Judaism but it most certainly seemed to be real for the Qumran sects (Essenes), especially judging by the War Scroll and others, and it wouldn't make sense for Jesus to be talking about the Devil to the Pharisees in the Gospels if the concept wouldnt' register on them back then.

Regardless of science and logic, an evil spirit-being was real back then and it is right now to a lot of people. In religious logic, the good god needs an adversary. Christianity needs a real devil. Does it make logical sense? To them yes. Does it make scientific sense? Most people in modern science aren't only trying to get rid of the devil, they're trying to get rid of God too. How can a religious person trust what science says?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When was any religion in harmony with science and logic? And, when was, man's science and logic, in harmony with religion? The extremes of one seem to take us away from belief in the other. (Which I think that is what Baha'is believe. The extremes of either are bad). Like with the Christian vs. science debate now dealing with creation vs. evolution. Where do Baha'is stand? With the Christians and their God or the atheistic scientists that logically and scientifically wants to eliminate god from the equation? Is science right? Are Christians?

If any religion contradicts with science, then it is not a true religion. It is superstitious.

Just to add in the some of the big names from other religions messes with the 1000 year "age" thing. So we add in Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, etc. How about prophets from China and Egypt and other countries and civilizations? How does the age thing work then? But then what about minor prophets? If the others are big mirrors, what are they? Like a ladies compact?

Well, there are several terminologies.
One is a dispensation, which is the duration between two revelations.
For example between Islam and Baha'i Faith was about 1000 years.
Every about a 1000 years the religion of God is renewed, with a new Book.

Baha'u'llah said:

"...the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus the Gospel; in the days of Muḥammad the Messenger of God the Qur’án..."

But an Age, it seems to me is a different term than dispensation. So, I think in one age there may come several minor prophets, as well as more than One Manifestation of God.
So, If I said, an age is the time between two divine Prophets, it was not an accurate statement. I meant to say, that a dispensation is the time between two major revelations. But for example, Buddha came between Moses and Jesus, but I think for a different Geographic Area on earth, to renew the religion for them.
So, for example between Adam and 1000 years after Adam, there may have been more than One Manifestation of God who appeared among different people, but Universally the religion of God was renewed. The Minor Prophets are not Manifestations of God in Baha'i belief.
So a Day of God is 1000 years. An Age may be the same as a Day of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." Exodus 9:12

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." John 12:40

 

[james2ko]

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." Exodus 9:12

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them." John 12:40

I've been questioning myself whether 1 Co 4:4 is a reference to satan. If satan can only do what God allows, then it's safe to assume God is ultimately in control of this age/world. Here are a few more supporting passages suggesting God, in His infinite wisdom, can and does suspend free will:

Mar 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Deu 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, [why?]that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day. [fulfill His divine will]

Jos_11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Isa_63:17 O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance.

Rom 9:18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.​

 

[Shermana]

If satan can only do what God allows, then it's safe to assume God is ultimately in control of this age/world.

So what is the point of being the "Prince of the Power of the Air" if being such a "Prince" means no actual direct authority? Even if THE god is in charge, that doesn't mean that "the god of the world" is the same being. Angels are in fact referred to as "gods" yet they aren't completely in charge.

 

[james2ko]

So what is the point of being the "Prince of the Power of the Air" if being such a "Prince" means no actual direct authority? Even if THE god is in charge, that doesn't mean that "the god of the world" is the same being. Angels are in fact referred to as "gods" yet they aren't completely in charge.

God gave satan restrictions on the treatment of Job and he obeyed???? This irrefutably illustrates satan is subject to God's authority and can only do what He allows.

 

[Curious George]

Could it be the interpretation of God in that given age? For instance on Christian could criticize another Christian's Christ.

 

[Shermana]

God gave satan restrictions on the treatment of Job and he obeyed???? This irrefutably illustrates satan is subject to God's authority and can only do what He allows.

Right, and he could have very well given Satan instructions on who he could tempt and fill the Spirit of. Which would still make Satan "The god of this age".

So again, what does "Prince of the Power of the Air" mean?

 

[james2ko]

Right, and he could have very well given Satan instructions on who he could tempt and fill the Spirit of. Which would still make Satan "The god of this age".

So again, what does "Prince of the Power of the Air" mean?

I agree satan is the "god" of this age. My point is since Satan can only do what God allows, it makes God ultimately responsible for the blinding and or hardening of those whom He wills to harden (Rom 9:18). Satan is merely God's unwitting agent or tool used to accomplish this.