The fall of man; Free will

[waitasec]

You're crossing one idea with all the others.
You'll never get it that way....

THEN Chapter Two.
A story of manipulation...not creation.
The physical nature of Man is altered....he is cloned.
The spiritual nature is altered....he was given a choice.
He took it.

It was never a story about falling from grace.
It is told that way, to explain why we die.
THAT is where the ongoing misconception comes up.

Previous generations believed we die because the first two people,
made a bad choice.

Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men.

what does that mean...
infants die, have they acquired knowledge? We can go as far as abortion, with this idea are we then not taking a life/murder because it has not acquired knowledge?

 

[Willamena]

ego is self worth, self image and self confidence

Right.

god held adam accountable for realizing his self worth. So is it evil to recognize your self worth?

There's no accountability in the story. No accounts, and nothing to pay. Rather, the consequence of realizing the worth of self is death, the eventual lost of that self.

infants die, have they acquired knowledge?

In that they have not yet acquired a sense of self that will be lost, I doubt that they realize death.

(I myself didn't realize it until I was about 9.)

 

[waitasec]

Right.


There's no accountability in the story. No accounts, and nothing to pay. Rather, the consequence of realizing the worth of self is death, the eventual lost of that self.

I don't mean accountable as in a debt to pay, but being held responsible for your your choices

"the consequence of realizing the worth of self" I understand as the consequence of freedom of will because adam had the power to choose.

god held adam responsible for realizing his free will

In that they have not yet acquired a sense of self that will be lost, I doubt that they realize death.

(I myself didn't realize it until I was about 9.)

are you saying the realization of self depends on the realization of your eventual death?

 

[PolyHedral]

Rather, the consequence of realizing the worth of self is death, the eventual lost of that self.

Death, in the physical sense, is merely a consequence of biology. It is theoretically possible, through various technologies, for the mind to be sustained for thousands or millions of years. Do you mean something else?

 

[Thief]

what does that mean...
infants die, have they acquired knowledge? We can go as far as abortion, with this idea are we then not taking a life/murder because it has not acquired knowledge?

This is out of context....
stick to the fall of man.

 

[waitasec]

You're crossing one idea with all the others.
You'll never get it that way....

THEN Chapter Two.
A story of manipulation...not creation.
The physical nature of Man is altered....he is cloned.
The spiritual nature is altered....he was given a choice.
He took it.

It was never a story about falling from grace.
It is told that way, to explain why we die.
THAT is where the ongoing misconception comes up.

Previous generations believed we die because the first two people,
made a bad choice.

Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men.

what does that mean...
infants die, have they acquired knowledge? We can go as far as abortion, with this idea are we then not taking a life/murder because it has not acquired knowledge?

This is out of context....
stick to the fall of man.

how is that out of context? what did you mean by,
"Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

"That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men."

so these rules don't apply for todays Man? Make yourself a little more clear please, just don't leave me hanging with "This is out of context..." explain how it is out of context, if you can

 

[Blackdog22]

I have a teenager. I give her space, freedom, privacy - all to an extent that a child should have. I tell her, when she's out with friends, don't do this or that. When she disobeys, she is punished. I love her so much, I hate to punish her but I want her to learn right and wrong and responsibility. God was, is, and forever will be. He knew what Adam was going to do before he was even created. Entrapment? Freewill. Learning process. Responsibility for our actions. Consequences. The beauty of it to me is this, God knew how terrible we were all gonna turn out, but He loves us so much, He made us anyway.

I guess every parent is guilty of entrapment, because we know our children are going to make bad decisions and mistakes - yet we allow them the space to make them so that they can learn.

I have watched this thread for about a day and it seems not everyone is understanding what exactly it is that God did. This post shows that more than anything. The difference between God and us and You and your little girl is you taught her right from wrong, and then gave her the choice to obey. That is great!

However that is not what God did at all, and I think you can kinda see that, but would rather slightly twist it to make the story seem better than it actually is. (not that I think your a bad person, people do this a lot in religions.) A better example of what God did would be to say: You raised your child without any knowledge. When she did something wrong you told her it was good, when she did something good you told her it was good. She got rewarded either way. You child is now incapable of knowing what is right or wrong in your eyes. You then place a bomb in your backyard, and wonder off. You make it very tempting to detonate the bomb, but not only that. There is a man in your backyard (snake) that you knew was back there. He shows her exactly how to arm the bomb and tells her she only has to press a button and mommy will come back. She does it and her and the entire world blows up.

But according to you doing this is good, and hey after all she had free will right? Or was she tricked? Were you just a little irresponsible? And do we have the right to judge you based on that? If you had the capability of destroying us all would that still make what you did right?

 

[Thief]

how is that out of context? what did you mean by,
"Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

"That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men."

so these rules don't apply for todays Man? Make yourself a little more clear please, just don't leave me hanging with "This is out of context..." explain how it is out of context, if you can

I believe my statements are self explanatory.
Are you really up for this?

 

[Willamena]

I don't mean accountable as in a debt to pay, but being held responsible for your your choices

"the consequence of realizing the worth of self" I understand as the consequence of freedom of will because adam had the power to choose.

god held adam responsible for realizing his free will

Accountability springs from responsibility - that a debt is owed to someone who was wronged means that that someone owns guilt or responsibility for their actions. Ownership is only possible when there's a self to possess these things. That, self and all these concepts related to self, are the "fruit" in the story. They are what was "eaten" (we are what we eat).

are you saying the realization of self depends on the realization of your eventual death?

The ideas are codependent, yes. What is it that is lost in "death"? The body remains, the accomplishments and works remain, the idea of the person remains. We mourn the missing presence of something... self. And when we have something to lose, we begin to value it.

 

[Willamena]

how is that out of context? what did you mean by,
"Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

"That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men."

so these rules don't apply for todays Man? Make yourself a little more clear please, just don't leave me hanging with "This is out of context..." explain how it is out of context, if you can

It's not the acquisition of another's knowledge (anyone's knowledge) that the story is about. It's about you (and me, and him, and her...) learning about self, a self can be lost. These "rules" apply to you, here, now. Only ever you, here, now --where your self is hiding, in there.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Hi everybody, haven't been around in a while.

1) Man IS an animal, we're just the smartest animals.

2) If you put a kid that knows nothing about smoking next to a lit cigarette and keep telling him how much you hate smoking, they're going to want to smoke that cigarette out of curiosity, and any responsible parent would know this. A truly all-powerful god would have given man this knowledge from the jump or done away with the tree, and avoided this situation completely. This is just another myth to try and justify why we act the way we do; The reality is that humans are bad because they want to be. We're not the man in this story, we're the serpent.

 

[it's_sam]

We're not the man in this story, we're the serpent.

I agree, but I also think we are being given a chance to resist it or become it. Perhaps the last question is, adam or the snake? To wich I would reply both you cannot be innocent without the truth of what it means, otherswise you are just ignorant of your actions.

 

[waitasec]

My question is simple...

did adam know/understand he was doing something evil when he decided to disobey?

and for some reason you don't want to answer it... instead offered a convoluted reply

A story of manipulation...not creation.
The physical nature of Man is altered....he is cloned.
The spiritual nature is altered....he was given a choice.
He took it.

It was never a story about falling from grace.
It is told that way, to explain why we die.
THAT is where the ongoing misconception comes up.

Previous generations believed we die because the first two people,
made a bad choice.

Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

i get you are talking about a 'spiritual life' BUT in this nonsensical fable god said, you will die if you eat the forbidden fruit...but was god speaking in the physical sense or the spiritual sense? Because in your christian view they both happen, right? Now if we have a spiritual life does one that live on forever, according to your faith YES...ONLY if you have faith in Jesus BUT we die physically in order for the spiritual life to live forever...this genesis story is an improbable concoction because our freedom of will is the only thing god COULD NOT CREATE

either adam knew he was doing something evil or not- my guess in this silly tale is not....and to suggest this 'loving god' knew adam/eve were going to fall doesn't make god so loving, does it?

That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men.

with all due respect, that is where you stuck your foot into your mouth

what does that mean...
infants die, have they acquired knowledge? We can go as far as abortion, with this idea are we then not taking a life/murder because it has not acquired knowledge?

I believe my statements are self explanatory.
Are you really up for this?

bring it on, that's why I'm here

 

[waitasec]

Accountability springs from responsibility - that a debt is owed to someone who was wronged means that that someone owns guilt or responsibility for their actions.
Ownership is only possible when there's a self to possess these things.

adam was found liable, responsible (being blamed) and answerable for disobeying god

who was wronged in this fantastic fable?

That, self and all these concepts related to self, are the "fruit" in the story. They are what was "eaten" (we are what we eat).

that's what I mean by freedom of will...that is the most basic thing about us
when adam realized he had the ability to choose, was that the fall?

The ideas are codependent, yes. What is it that is lost in "death"? The body remains, the accomplishments and works remain, the idea of the person remains. We mourn the missing presence of something... self. And when we have something to lose, we begin to value it.

Animals and humans both loose the spark...do animals live in fear? NO they live in the full awareness and understanding of freedom of will...do they rationalize fear? NO... they follow their 1st instinct to flee. Humans on the other hand rationalize, my cats don't spend anytime debating life on the internet they just stare at a wall mostly

 

[it's_sam]

So you would preffer us not to know what we do is bad it just is the means to an end, meanwhile God has to suffer the knowledge himself? The knowledge that it is because of HIM we don't know what we do. Did we leave him a choice? We are who we are and he knows it, what to do next?

 

[it's_sam]

I have a feeling God would agree nobody did it "right" but something most deffinately had to happen. If he would of said nothing the fruit would of eventualy been eaten but without any gain of consequence. The beggining had to be what it would take to make it work, not whats most comfertable for you.

 

[waitasec]

So you would preffer us not to know what we do is bad it just is the means to an end, meanwhile God has to suffer the knowledge himself? The knowledge that it is because of HIM we don't know what we do. Did we leave him a choice? We are who we are and he knows it, what to do next?

no. not at all. I'm suggesting that this fairy tale is just that...

there are numerous holes in this story, which is why we debate over it.

my argument is we have freedom of will, the ability to choose for ourselves and NO ONE can take that away from us NOT EVEN BY AN ALL POWERFUL GOD

if i told my son, 'don't put that in your mouth it's poison', at an age where his understanding of obeying is nil, how can i just leave the poison out on the table where he can reach it? God makes a very bad parent...next thread perhaps

 

[it's_sam]

If your will is to be free of consequence you would go to a world free of punishment for that is what your will is asking. The deeds that would normaly go punished are not now. If your will is what you think is what everyone needs thats your business but i preffer a mix and veriety of people of their own will, free but constrained in the knowledge of truth.

 

[waitasec]

I have a feeling God would agree nobody did it "right" but something most deffinately had to happen. If he would of said nothing the fruit would of eventualy been eaten but without any gain of consequence. The beggining had to be what it would take to make it work, not whats most comfertable for you.

consequences are natural
cause and effect, what goes up must come down etc
We are all born into freedom, pure and simple.
just in the declaration of independence "all men are born equal"

It is when our freedoms are taken away that cause strife.

here, I've said this before (not to you) but look;
If it is our motivation to be accountable to god to gain gods favor then our motivation has been tainted by selfish reasons (gaining access into heaven, being saved and so forth). However if we were to be accountable to each other, not for the sake of gaining favor but for the sake of fairness, then our responsibilities towards our individual freedoms would not be so convoluted. ‘Love thy neighbor’ and ‘treat others as you would yourself’ are principles that come from our accountability towards one another. But since it is set on the impression of gaining favor then it will ultimately fail, simply for the selfish incentive.

 

[it's_sam]

But since it is set on the impression of gaining favor then it will ultimately fail, simply for the selfish incentive.

Beleivers agree with this and try our hardest to not to even touch it as an idea. It would be a gain for me to go to heaven, but it was most deffinately a loss finding out why I am. Sacrifice who you are to be able to find out who you can be.