The fall of man; Free will

[waitasec]

Which says: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not die but have eternal life." Do try to keep up.

what does 'who has faith in him' mean to you? a condition
what does 'may not die' mean to you...the alternative perhaps

Does the word Gehenna mean anything to you?

I have no idea, nor will I pretend to know

Oh, and it wasn't because of not believing that those people would be thrown to the dump:

"'For when I was hungry you gave me nothing to eat, when thirsty nothing to drink; when I was a stranger you gave me no home, when naked you did not clothe me; when I was ill and in prison you did not come to my help.' And they too will reply, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and did nothing for you?' And he will answer, 'I tell you this: anything you did not do for one of these, however humble, you did not do for me.' And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life."

Hm... interesting... nothing in there about not believing; it's all about not helping others in need. Again, I say, do try to keep up.

yes yes yes...another way to get into heaven is to sell everything you have Lk 14 and 18 Yet another contradiction...

oh yea there's the one where you have to hate your brother and sister, mother and father Lk 14
but then you have to love everyone Lk 10
and how about being like a child
Matthew 18
but then you have to
be as righteous as the Pharisees Matthew 5....yes yes yes there are many ways to get into heaven

stopping looking back...I'm way ahead of you:yes:

 

[waitasec]

I did. I offered a more accurate statement of what you may have meant.

what did I mean....? Please clarify because it looks here like you just want to argue for argument sake

in the garden adam was perpetually innocent (blameless, guiltless) because he didn't know the difference between right and wrong that is why this legend is fallible and yes ignorant (inexperienced unenlightened) so you agree with what I am saying....

 

[waitasec]

The tree of life is ....life after death.

The acquisition of knowledge between good and evil is needful.
To walk in heaven and not know the difference?
The angels might object.
I suspect They did.

The acquisition of knowledge must be made of choice.
In spite of consequence...in spite of dying.

There are two levels of ignorance.
The first is simple...you were not informed.
This is remedied by learning.

The second level is to ignore.
This is profound.
It can only be remedied by choice.

That you become aware is one thing....your choice?
That you walk in heaven is not your choice.

God and the angels pick and choose who will follow.

did adam know/understand he was doing something evil when he decided to disobey?

 

[jml03]

Post #124 is not new to you?

yes it is, I think I was just skimming thru. Anyway,I like the post myself. I have agreed with most of what you say. Cast not your pearls before the swine. Some people will just not get it, and the way their posts read, well it just sounds like my kids arguing.

 

[it's_sam]

yes it is, i think i was just skimming thru. Anyway,i like the post myself. I have agreed with most of what you say. Cast not your pearls before the swine. Some people will just not get it, and the way their posts read, well it just sounds like my kids arguing.

haha!

 

[waitasec]

So you're basically complaining that some archaic alcoholic laws are still being enforced? So why don't you try appealing them? (Besides, compared to some of the other laws out there, alcohol restrictions like those seem rather minor.)

it is the underlying notion the christian right believe...that is why I brought this up in the 1st place to start at the beginning of their bible and point out that this imaginary god of theirs is afraid of our freedom of will, because it is within our choice that determines the existence of god

I guess you live in one of those states where it is... well, as I live in California, and I don't drink alcohol, I've never had to worry about that.

I live in Los angeles, it was when I traveled to Georgia and was exposed to these different laws...

Doesn't exactly help your case, either, that we have the freedoms to live as we want. Since this world isn't perfect, I don't expect absolute perfection from freedom from religious laws after only ~200 years.

No, freedom comes with responsibility. If it is our motivation to be accountable to god to gain gods favor then our motivation has been tainted by selfish reasons (gaining access into heaven, being saved and so forth). However if we were to be accountable to each other, not for the sake of gaining favor but for the sake of fairness, then our responsibilities towards our individual freedoms would not be so convoluted. ‘Love thy neighbor’ and ‘treat others as you would yourself’ are principles that come from our accountability towards one another. But since it is set on the impression of gaining favor then it will ultimately fail, simply for the selfish incentive.

Simply that I'm aware that the religious have infringed upon the rights of gays. I'm also aware that those rights will eventually be granted, sooner or later.

Yes I hope so for their sake!!! AND OURS TOO!!!

'Cause I like debating. It's a great way for me to learn. Also because I'm often bored.

here here...this is a great way to expand the mind...and it is because we are not afraid to ask...it's better than watching TV

can we be friends now:rainbow1:

 

[it's_sam]

here here...this is a great way to expand the mind...and it is because we are not afraid to ask...it's better than watching TV

Second!

 

[Thief]

did adam know/understand he was doing something evil when he decided to disobey?

Partaking of knowledge is not evil.
But neither is it, a saving grace.

Some people cling to the idea the acquisition to be some sort of test.
God set it up to see what Man might do.
As if, He might not know what would happen.

But if Man had not partaken....
He would not know the difference between good and evil?

Picture a child that doesn't know.....
Would you not hold his hand?...continually....
Could you ever leave him to his own free will?
Would he not behave like an animal if you did?

Have you ever left an untrained puppy in your house?

 

[Willamena]

in the garden adam was perpetually innocent (blameless, guiltless) because he didn't know the difference between right and wrong

Right.

that is why this legend is fallible and yes ignorant

No, because that is what the legend says. It says that Adam did not know blame or guilt until he ate from the tree.

 

[it's_sam]

There is nothing he could possibly say to me that would make me see it his way

It seem's to me the knowledge adam needed to to stop him from eating the fruit was in the fruit (knowledge of consequence). A test but determined in its spectrum and equal on all sides.

 

[waitasec]

Partaking of knowledge is not evil.
But neither is it, a saving grace.

Some people cling to the idea the acquisition to be some sort of test.
God set it up to see what Man might do.
As if, He might not know what would happen.

But if Man had not partaken....
He would not know the difference between good and evil?

Picture a child that doesn't know.....
Would you not hold his hand?...continually....
Could you ever leave him to his own free will?
Would he not behave like an animal if you did?

Have you ever left an untrained puppy in your house?

Exactly, that is why the enemy of this imaginary god in the bible is freedom of choice/will because it is in our freedom of will to choose to believe in the existence imaginary god or not

 

[Willamena]

Exactly, that is why the enemy of this imaginary god in the bible is freedom of choice/will because it is in our freedom of will to choose to believe in the existence imaginary god or not

You may be interested in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/86382-did-you-choose-what-you-believe.html

 

[waitasec]

Right.


No, because that is what the legend says. It says that Adam did not know blame or guilt until he ate from the tree.

so, he didn't know eating the magic apple was evil... god then held him accountable for his innocence...remember he was in a perpetual state of innocence when he made the choice because he didn't know disobeying was evil...that is why I see see this legend as a fallacy explaining why we die; disobedience and why I believe the original sin wasn't the choice but that he could make one...free will... which is why it is in our free will to believe in an imaginary god's existence or not

 

[waitasec]

You may be interested in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...es/86382-did-you-choose-what-you-believe.html

thanx I'll check it out

 

[it's_sam]

so, he didn't know eating the magic apple was evil... god then held him accountable for his innocence...remember he was in a perpetual state of innocence when he made the choice because he didn't know disobeying was evil...that is why I see see this legend as a fallacy explaining why we die; disobedience and why I believe the original sin wasn't the choice but that he could make one...free will... which is why it is in our free will to believe in an imaginary god's existence or not

He didnt know consequence but he did know that he said not to eat it and even whent as far as to say why. This wasnt known to Adam as a reality untill he ate the fruit so he could see the wrong he had done and thus began knowledge "the growth of thought as i like to call it".

 

[Thief]

so, he didn't know eating the magic apple was evil... god then held him accountable for his innocence...remember he was in a perpetual state of innocence when he made the choice because he didn't know disobeying was evil...that is why I see see this legend as a fallacy explaining why we die; disobedience and why I believe the original sin wasn't the choice but that he could make one...free will... which is why it is in our free will to believe in an imaginary god's existence or not

You're crossing one idea with all the others.
You'll never get it that way.

Man was free on Day Six.
Go forth...be fruitful...multiply...dominate all things...
And we did.
Without names....without reservation....without law.....

As a species...Man was created on Day Six.
And he behaved like an animal.

Day Seven...God rests...the creation process has stopped.

THEN Chapter Two.
A story of manipulation...not creation.
The physical nature of Man is altered....he is cloned.
The spiritual nature is altered....he was given a choice.
He took it.

It was never a story about falling from grace.
It is told that way, to explain why we die.
THAT is where the ongoing misconception comes up.

Previous generations believed we die because the first two people,
made a bad choice.

Actually they made the only choice they could have.
Without the acquisition of knowledge...Man would still be an animal.

That we die...after acquisition of knowledge....is true for all men.

 

[waitasec]

He didnt know consequence but he did know that he said not to eat it and even whent as far as to say why. This wasnt known to Adam as a reality untill he ate the fruit so he could see the wrong he had done and thus began knowledge "the growth of thought as i like to call it".

then why hold adam and eve accountable for something they did not understand...a set up perhaps?

 

[Willamena]

so, he didn't know eating the magic apple was evil... god then held him accountable for his innocence...remember he was in a perpetual state of innocence when he made the choice because he didn't know disobeying was evil...that is why I see see this legend as a fallacy explaining why we die; disobedience and why I believe the original sin wasn't the choice but that he could make one...free will... which is why it is in our free will to believe in an imaginary god's existence or not

God did not hold him accountable for making a choice; rather, the consequence of ego --bringing good and evil into the world, where they were then known --was the inevitable "death". You can't die unless there's somebody, a "you" (an ego), to die. Once there was ego, and all its associated concepts, there was also death.

 

[it's_sam]

I think mostly God just didnt want a bunch of mindless humans for "heaven" fun!

 

[waitasec]

God did not hold him accountable for making a choice; rather, the consequence of ego --bringing good and evil into the world, where they were then known --was the inevitable "death". You can't die unless there's somebody, a "you" (an ego), to die. Once there was ego, and all its associated concepts, there was also death.

ego is self worth, self image and self confidence
god held adam accountable for realizing his self worth. So is it evil to recognize your self worth?