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The fall of man; Free will

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by waitasec, Jul 14, 2010.

  1. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    According to the Judeo/Christian belief, Adam KNOWINGLY made the EVIL decision by disobeying God. But how? He hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit as of yet, which comes from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So there was no way for him to understand disobedience was evil, was there? He was in a perpetual state of innocence. By innocently partaking of the forbidden fruit his eyes were then opened. The only way this would make sense is if freedom of will is an evil in the eyes of the god in the bible (Adam was told not to eat it, but how can god expect for Adam to understand the implication since he had no prior knowledge disobedience was evil). God also took freedom away from the woman and subjected her to mans rule. Genesis 3:16. Remember, all was good before the opportunity of choice was established.
     
    Willamena likes this.
  2. Misty

    Misty New Member

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    If the story was literally true rather than the myth I believe it to be, you could argue God was guilty of entrapment.
     
  3. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    God's guilty of entrapment in the myth as well.
     
    enchanted_one1975 likes this.
  4. jml03

    jml03 New Member

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    I have a teenager. I give her space, freedom, privacy - all to an extent that a child should have. I tell her, when she's out with friends, don't do this or that. When she disobeys, she is punished. I love her so much, I hate to punish her but I want her to learn right and wrong and responsibility. God was, is, and forever will be. He knew what Adam was going to do before he was even created. Entrapment? Freewill. Learning process. Responsibility for our actions. Consequences. The beauty of it to me is this, God knew how terrible we were all gonna turn out, but He loves us so much, He made us anyway.

    I guess every parent is guilty of entrapment, because we know our children are going to make bad decisions and mistakes - yet we allow them the space to make them so that they can learn.
     
  5. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Not much of a creator.
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Well-Known Member

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    And aren't we thankful for all suffering he attached to our existence. Because without all suffering in the world we would be happy and content, and god knows that isn't an acceptable way to go through life: actually enjoying it.
     
  7. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    Did Adam KNOW he was committing an evil act by disobedience? Remember, this is the story that explains the fall of man. Why hold Adam and eve accountable for something he did UNDERSTAND?
     
  8. Riverwolf

    Riverwolf Persona Polytheist / Proud Ergi Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
    Old Way Made New
    Here's another explanation: Adam and Eve weren't punished simply for eating the fruit; the sins only started there.

    First, Adam tried to hide from God.
    Then, when God learned what Adam had done, he tried to place the responsibility on both God and Eve. (3:12)
    Eve then tried to escape responsibility by putting the blame on the serpent. (3:13)

    Sure, they ate in innocence, but after knowing what was good and bad, they tried to escape responsibility rather than facing it.
     
  9. jml03

    jml03 New Member

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    I have endured suffering. The loss of a child and other family members were incomprehensible. But because of my faith, I know my little girl is waiting for me. Believe it or not, I ENJOY my life. I enjoy the time I have with my family. I am grateful for the freedoms I have. Every day has some sort of awesome joy for me.

    I'm sure there will be more suffering and loss in my life in the future. But, because of God carrying me through the grief I have experienced, I know I have nothing to fear or dread - He will carry me through again.
     
  10. jml03

    jml03 New Member

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    Excellent statement!:bow:
     
  11. Eliot Wild

    Eliot Wild Irreverent Agnostic Jerk

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    It seems most likely to me that the Genesis stories are allegorical. Otherwise, if they are meant to be taken literally as some fundamentalists suggest, then you're right, they can be logically picked apart for all eternity given the rampant inconsistencies and blatant absurdities found therein.

    What I find worth remembering about the Bible is that some guy named Jesus told people it is good to have compassion for everybody, even those who hate us, and that we should be willing to forgive everyone who has done us wrong, even our vilest enemies, and finally that since all humans are imperfect and "without sin" it is inappropriate for us to unduly judge each other.

    Was this guy Jesus a god or the son of god, and did Adam have freewill before he ate the apple, and was it even an apple, and what kind of apple was it, a Washington Red or a Granny Smith, and what is the deal with Eve hooking up with that snake, and does God really got something against homosexuals and who the heck was Nickademus, etc., etc., etc. . . . I honestly don't know. But I do think that Jesus had some pretty cool ideas, even if he wasn't the first to come up with 'em.
     
  12. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    jml03
    We all suffer, yes this is true. Unfortunately death is a reality. Being a mother myself, I could NEVER imagine what loosing a child must feel like. For that I am VERY sorry you had to endure such a tragedy. Please if your purpose being on this forum is to 'enlighten' unbelievers', please be advised your faith will be subject to doubt, if you are not prepared for that I suggest thinking twice about it.

    With that in mind, the subject here is our free will. The enemy of the god in your bible, the enemy of any god for that matter. "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven". We consider our enemy to be evil, right? If 'god' being a "selfish" god is jealous of 'other gods', is he really jealous of god's that he himself knows cannot exist, for god is the creator of all, right? What is god jealous of then? Could it be the fact that our freedom of will trumps the all powerful god. I am not suggesting there is a god. The ideology of an all powerful creator was created by man trying to explain the unexplainable, the meaning of life...why we die and how death is associated with evil.
     
  13. waitasec

    waitasec New Member

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    but why hold them accountable for not KNOWING? this is irreconcilable
    the sin wasn't the choice, it's that Adam had the power to make a choice
     
  14. sandandfoam

    sandandfoam Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this but I don't get how it ties in with free will.

    Myself, I'm not sure about free will, I think we might be free only in so far as we can excercise some measure of control over how we feel about things but I can't offer any more than my gut instinct to back up my view.
    But our society operates on the basis we have free will, most of the time we behave as if we do, we feel like we do, so to all intents and purposes - we do.
     
  15. jml03

    jml03 New Member

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    But, freewill is not the enemy of God, in my opinion. I have the freewill to do something good, as well as something bad. I suppose evil is the enemy, however I call it the devil- but even this is a tough call because God has power over Satan, in fact I do too. Once Jesus died on the Cross, he bound Satan & Hell & the grave. So, I am iffy on the enemy thing. God is a jealous God, I mean many people just worshiped something to be worshiping. Idols, etc. I don't necessarily think that God and the Higher Power of many other religions are not one in the same. So, I can't really answer which ones I believe He is jealous of. I do not agree that our freewill trumps God. How can something trump it's Creator? Death, to me is not evil.
     
  16. sandandfoam

    sandandfoam Well-Known Member

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    Do you think it's possible to expect too much from myths?
    I think the onus is on the reader.
     
    Willamena likes this.
  17. Eliot Wild

    Eliot Wild Irreverent Agnostic Jerk

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    If someone can prove we do not have freewill, I wish they'd please send their proof to Warren District Court Judge Sam Potter so he will let me out of my most recent speeding ticket . . . I had no choice but to speed, your Honor, I am merely the haphazard consequence of a cause-and-effect universe run amok.
     
    Willamena likes this.
  18. Zadok

    Zadok Zadok

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    817
    It is obvious from the scriptures of garden epoch that there are important pieces of information missing. Not only did G-d know that Adam and Eve would fall – the fall was part of the plan of G-d. In order for there to be any semblance of justice and intelligence on the side of G-d and freewill on the side of man in what we are told of the garden epoch there are some additional things that must be:

    1. Adam and Eve had to know the risk and consequences of their choices – both the risk and consequences to them and to G-d. One can argue that Adam and Eve knew of the risk and consequences to themselves because G-d told them. That is a bit of a reach because G-d’s pre-fall explanation is incomplete but the second part (risk and consequences to G-d) was clearly not known from what is provided in scripture.

    2. If before Adam was created as a physical entity his essence knew of the risks and consequences both to him and G-d then and only then would the Fall be a choice and an expression of free will.

    I submit that the plan of G-d was all along that Adam fall by his free will and choice – not by partial ignorance or any misunderstanding. In a fallen state all mankind would be partially blind and inevitability become soiled with sin and evil – thus experiencing firsthand the complete consequences of evil. But because man would sin and experience evil without the full light of truth and therefore, the complete exercise of free will; G-d could also provide a Savior and Redeemer in order that man could repent of such sins that occurred in partial ignorance and become free of the eternal consequences. Now the entire experience of all mankind finally makes sense and we have freewill and we can still know perfectly, by experience, the good from the evil. And by and through that experience – someday stand before G-d and discuss fully with him what we have learned and make another choice in the full light of truth and with complete free will to be rid of evil forever or to keep some or all evil we have found to our liking, personal pleasure and enjoyment.

    Zadok
     
  19. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    22,701
    Unfortunately, if someone has proof, whether they send proof to the judge or not, isn't up to them.
     
  20. jml03

    jml03 New Member

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    Fascinating thoughts on the subject
     
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