The fall of man; Free will

[waitasec]

Innocence has two primary definitions: having done no wrong, and having a lack of understanding. (Knowledge =/= understanding. They're synonyms, but not the same word.)

A more accurate statement, therefore, may have been, the opposite of understanding is innocence, i.e., naiveté.

i thought you said the opposite of knowledge was ignorance?

 

[waitasec]

The god in the bible created hell, eternal damnation, eternal separation as a consequence for not following, believing or having faith in the god of the Judeo/Christian faith...that IS the consequence...

It's not in the Bible.

John 3:16,

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[waitasec]

because in this faith there is no freedom of will and the the christian right have appointed themselves as a mediator between my right and the model of freedom. They fail to recognize our individual freedom of will. There is nothing more fundamental and more inclusive than that. The religious infringe on my freedom to be able to exercise my will. Look up Blue Laws...

Whatever laws those are, you are completely free to ignore them all you want. Your rights are not being infringed upon, unless you're gay.

what do you mean by that?

Indeed. That is interesting, and so far the only thing you've said worth thinking about.

so why are you here?:slap:

 

[Thief]

Gen 3:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Yes I find it quite silly too...

A misconception...

Most people read Genesis and then decide that the above statement is law and consequence.
It is not.

That Man should have knowledge is altogether essential.
That He partake of it by choice regardless of consequence is essential.
That we die is not the actual consequence.

Man was never intended to live forever...physically.

But to continue on...after death....knowledge of good and evil are essential.
The acquisition was ...and is... required.

That God would forbid the acquisition...creates the situation wherein....
Man must make the choice.
That the experiment of the Garden ends when the choice is made... should not surprise anyone.

Of course we die...we are made of dust.
Of course Adam and Eve have died.
That you will do the same, should not surprise you...you are made the same way...
you will die the same way.

And yet we have discussions like this on a world wide website.
And no one seems to be getting the idea.

If you partake of the knowledge of good and evil...you know better.
You would then be able...life after death.

That you fail to crossover into paradise would not be God's fault.

It's your problem...not His.

The solution is wisdom.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Without this...all the knowledge ever dealt is useless.
The devil knows the scriptures...all of them.
He knows the prophets...all of them.
He knows the philosophers and their sayings...all of them.
He does not live in heaven.

 

[jml03]

I really don't think this thread is getting anywhere.

 

[Thief]

I really don't think this thread is getting anywhere.

Were you actually seeking a resolve?
A definitive resolution?

Here at the forum there are nay sayers of all kinds.
No two people see any one item in the same way.

 

[jml03]

Were you actually seeking a resolve?
A definitive resolution?

Here at the forum there are nay sayers of all kinds.
No two people see any one item in the same way.

No, I just see a few people butting heads, repeating the same thing over and over. Nothing new is being brought to the table. Thus, it is not getting anywhere.

 

[Thief]

No, I just see a few people butting heads, repeating the same thing over and over. Nothing new is being brought to the table. Thus, it is not getting anywhere.

Post #124 is not new to you?

 

[waitasec]

A misconception...

Most people read Genesis and then decide that the above statement is law and consequence.
It is not.

That Man should have knowledge is altogether essential.
That He partake of it by choice regardless of consequence is essential.
That we die is not the actual consequence.

Man was never intended to live forever...physically.

But to continue on...after death....knowledge of good and evil are essential.
The acquisition was ...and is... required.

That God would forbid the acquisition...creates the situation wherein....
Man must make the choice.
That the experiment of the Garden ends when the choice is made... should not surprise anyone.

Of course we die...we are made of dust.
Of course Adam and Eve have died.
That you will do the same, should not surprise you...you are made the same way...
you will die the same way....

so when god tells adam"...you will surely die", didn't god forbid adam and eve from eating from the tree of life after the fall? wasn't that the consequence...? Another question, why would and adam and eve not eat from the tree of life before the tree of knowledge... is it because they didn't know better?

 

[Riverwolf]

Originally Posted by Riverwolf
Sure, they ate in innocence, but after knowing what was good and bad, they tried to escape responsibility rather than facing it.

my argument isn't about after the fact, my argument is before the act... they made the choice yes but how can this imaginary god hold them accountable for not knowing disobedience was bad? they were in a perpetual state of innocence... this is irreconcilable, faulty, full of contradictions because the men that wrote this legend or passed it along verbally through hundreds of years of tradition were that... imperfect... sexist and prejudice.

Then I guess we should never discipline our children when they do something we know to be bad, because, after all, they're in a perpetual state of innocence.

 

[Riverwolf]

Gen 3:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Yes I find it quite silly too...

That's not what I was talking about. I meant the "no freedom in the face of fear" aphorism. I find that silly.

BTW, God meant that they'd be cut off from the Tree of Life, which they were allowed to eat from.

 

[Riverwolf]

i thought you said the opposite of knowledge was ignorance?

I did. I offered a more accurate statement of what you may have meant.

 

[it's_sam]

I was poorly trying to re-edit as well. I think we got the whole of it though HAHA

 

[Thief]

so when god tells adam"...you will surely die", didn't god forbid adam and eve from eating from the tree of life after the fall? wasn't that the consequence...? Another question, why would and adam and eve not eat from the tree of life before the tree of knowledge... is it because they didn't know better?

The tree of life is ....life after death.

The acquisition of knowledge between good and evil is needful.
To walk in heaven and not know the difference?
The angels might object.
I suspect They did.

The acquisition of knowledge must be made of choice.
In spite of consequence...in spite of dying.

There are two levels of ignorance.
The first is simple...you were not informed.
This is remedied by learning.

The second level is to ignore.
This is profound.
It can only be remedied by choice.

That you become aware is one thing....your choice?
That you walk in heaven is not your choice.

God and the angels pick and choose who will follow.

 

[Misty]

I have a teenager. I give her space, freedom, privacy - all to an extent that a child should have. I tell her, when she's out with friends, don't do this or that. When she disobeys, she is punished. I love her so much, I hate to punish her but I want her to learn right and wrong and responsibility. God was, is, and forever will be. He knew what Adam was going to do before he was even created. Entrapment? Freewill. Learning process. Responsibility for our actions. Consequences. The beauty of it to me is this, God knew how terrible we were all gonna turn out, but He loves us so much, He made us anyway.

I guess every parent is guilty of entrapment, because we know our children are going to make bad decisions and mistakes - yet we allow them the space to make them so that they can learn.

You would expect better from an omnipotent deity. The God of the bible really is a nasty piece of work, good job he isn't for real, imo.

 

[Riverwolf]

The god in the bible created hell, eternal damnation, eternal separation as a consequence for not following, believing or having faith in the god of the Judeo/Christian faith...that IS the consequence...

John 3:16,

Which says: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, that everyone who has faith in him may not die but have eternal life." Do try to keep up.

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Does the word Gehenna mean anything to you?

Oh, and it wasn't because of not believing that those people would be thrown to the dump:

"'For when I was hungry you gave me nothing to eat, when thirsty nothing to drink; when I was a stranger you gave me no home, when naked you did not clothe me; when I was ill and in prison you did not come to my help.' And they too will reply, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and did nothing for you?' And he will answer, 'I tell you this: anything you did not do for one of these, however humble, you did not do for me.' And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life."

Hm... interesting... nothing in there about not believing; it's all about not helping others in need. Again, I say, do try to keep up.

 

[waitasec]

That's not what I was talking about. I meant the "no freedom in the face of fear" aphorism. I find that silly.

BTW, God meant that they'd be cut off from the Tree of Life, which they were allowed to eat from.

so you are telling me if someone is holding a gun to your head and says, do this or I will kill you, your making a decision based on your free will?
I don't think so my friend...

yes, I agree...that was the alternative/consequence....but why did they not eat from the tree of life first, was it because they didn't know better...?

 

[Riverwolf]

because in this faith there is no freedom of will and the the christian right have appointed themselves as a mediator between my right and the model of freedom. They fail to recognize our individual freedom of will. There is nothing more fundamental and more inclusive than that. The religious infringe on my freedom to be able to exercise my will. Look up Blue Laws...

So you're basically complaining that some archaic alcoholic laws are still being enforced? So why don't you try appealing them? (Besides, compared to some of the other laws out there, alcohol restrictions like those seem rather minor.)

I guess you live in one of those states where it is... well, as I live in California, and I don't drink alcohol, I've never had to worry about that.

Doesn't exactly help your case, either, that we have the freedoms to live as we want. Since this world isn't perfect, I don't expect absolute perfection from freedom from religious laws after only ~200 years.

what do you mean by that?

Simply that I'm aware that the religious have infringed upon the rights of gays. I'm also aware that those rights will eventually be granted, sooner or later.

so why are you here?:slap:

'Cause I like debating. It's a great way for me to learn. Also because I'm often bored.

 

[it's_sam]

The tree of life is ....life after death.

The acquisition of knowledge between good and evil is needful.
To walk in heaven and not know the difference?
The angels might object.
I suspect They did.

The acquisition of knowledge must be made of choice.
In spite of consequence...in spite of dying.

There are two levels of ignorance.
The first is simple...you were not informed.
This is remedied by learning.

The second level is to ignore.
This is profound.
It can only be remedied by choice.

That you become aware is one thing.
That you walk in heaven is not your choice.

God and the angels pick and choose who will follow.

Thats true i don't think i gave this thought the credit it needed. So there would be 4 sides "I just find it hard to see someone ignoring God to his face" but that doesn't mean it wouldnt happen.

 

[Riverwolf]

so you are telling me if someone is holding a gun to your head and says, do this or I will kill you, your making a decision based on your free will?
I don't think so my friend...

I do. Besides, start playing that card, and the concept of total free will becomes illogical anyway, for it turns out that there's no free will in the face of any unchecked emotions... and most people seem to have those.

yes, I agree...that was the alternative/consequence....but why did they not eat from the tree of life first, was it because they didn't know better...?

There's no reason to think that they weren't eating from the tree of life. It wasn't forbidden, after all.