The fall of man; Free will

[waitasec]

Those things, in this context, are nothing more than our knowledge of them.

so I guess you are, in this context, avoiding the question...

and how does one acquire the knowledge of good and evil.... through choice perhaps?

look it's really simple. this story is a legend written to explain the concept of sin and the reality of death. There is evil in the world BUT there is also good in the world. This explanation of the reality of death is tied to the concept of evil; death = evil. But death is real. How are we to come to terms with this eventual end to life? If we are good in life, why do we die? Then we are to live forever in the afterlife according to our religious beliefs- Jn 3:16 for example...but even there Jesus gives a condition, whoever believes, as an out to avoid the alternative, perish.

If it is our motivation to be accountable to god to gain gods favor then our motivation has been tainted by selfish reasons (gaining access into heaven, being saved and so forth). However if we were to be accountable to each other, not for the sake of gaining favor but for the sake of fairness, then our responsibilities towards our individual freedoms would not be so convoluted. ‘Love thy neighbor’ and ‘treat others as you would yourself’ are principles that come from our accountability towards one another if we recognize that we ALL live in freedom. But since it is set on the impression of gaining favor then it will ultimately fail, simply for the selfish incentive.

 

[Thief]

humans are the ONLY ANIMALS that has the ability to rationalize fear.
If the 1st INSTINCT is to flee...we rationalize and deliberately walk into a DANGEROUS situation

How is this a rebuttal to my post?

 

[waitasec]

I simply don't see God thinking adam wouldnt ever eat it, but he might of wondered how long it would take and the reason why. He wouldnt of given this fruit a connection to us in any way if he didnt expect us to use it. I may be a guinea pig but atleast he gave me a wheel to run on

it was a set up...not that god exists but the authors of this tale created this god in their image...imperfect....

 

[it's_sam]

look it's really simple. this story is a legend written to explain the concept of sin and the reality of death. There is evil in the world BUT there is also good in the world. This explanation of the reality of death is tied to the concept of evil; death = evil. But death is real.

I could be wrong but I think i speak for most people here when I say that most religious people "now days" see death as an end in this life and the beggining of the next. Not the sum of evil. Now if you were holding this defense on the other side you might get a different response seeing as how their bodies don't die... again. If they did start dying that might be considered "evil" but that still wouldnt give them emprical evidence that it is. Especialy if you consider that leaving there would restart you here and you got to do the whole life over again in a new time.

 

[waitasec]

Good points waitasec. How could he hold them to blame for something they had no idea how to comprehend? Again I think he knew the whole time, just wanted to show us for ourselves what we will do if you have nothing holding you back.

dignity is what would hold you back...a sense of responsibility towards humanity and LIFE...we sell ourselves TOO short and since we don't expect good things to come from us is it any wonder there is injustice in this world?

Even christ said nothing good can come out of the heart of man...

think of it this way, if my parents kept telling me I was no good...and the only good thing about me was THEM by handing over my freedom of will to submit to theirs, how do you think I would turn out...? insecure or secure?

 

[Willamena]

and how does one acquire the knowledge of good and evil.... through choice perhaps?

No, silly. Through eating a magic apple.

 

[waitasec]

How is this a rebuttal to my post?

"Man did not fall in the Garden.
He was given a choice. He took it.
It had to be that way.
We would be no more than animals without the acquisition of knowledge.
But knowledge in itself is not a saving grace."

In this legend, did Adam know he was doing something evil when he decided to eat the fruit? If yes, then how? His eyes were not open. If no, then why hold him accountable for something he was not privy to...that is why this story is an imperfect explanation for the reason we die because it was written by imperfect men, who also happen to be sexist...

We reason through our fear...and try to rationalize our fear... knowledge is power, then we wouldn't need to rationalize, would we?

 

[waitasec]

No, silly. Through eating a magic apple.

Was there a choice in the matter?
Did Adam KNOW he was doing something evil by disobeying? If yes, then how? If no, then why hold him accountable for something he didn't understand...

It's a simple question, why are rationalizing this to mean something different...? Are you AFRAID?

 

[it's_sam]

and how does one acquire the knowledge of good and evil.... through choice perhaps?

For me it was this wierd black guy with sunglasses that had no frames (odd). He offered me a red pill and a blue and said choose wisely. So then I shrugged and popped em both in my mouth.

 

[waitasec]

I could be wrong but I think i speak for most people here when I say that most religious people "now days" see death as an end in this life and the beggining of the next. Not the sum of evil. Now if you were holding this defense on the other side you might get a different response seeing as how their bodies don't die... again. If they did start dying that might be considered "evil" but that still wouldnt give them emprical evidence that it is. Especialy if you consider that leaving there would restart you here and you got to do the whole life over again in a new time.

sorry, i couldn't follow that

 

[waitasec]

For me it was this wierd black guy with sunglasses that had no frames (odd). He offered me a red pill and a blue and said choose wisely. So then I shrugged and popped em both in my mouth.

you are a true goonie....long live the goonies!!!!:bow:

 

[it's_sam]

Haha woot! Goonies 4ever!

 

[Willamena]

Was there a choice in the matter?
Did Adam KNOW he was doing something evil by disobeying? If yes, then how? If no, then why hold him accountable for something he didn't understand...

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

It's a simple question, why are rationalizing this to mean something different...? Are you AFRAID?

I answered your question the first time you asked it. I'm not the one who is rationalizing.

 

[it's_sam]

Do you hear me? Hear what I say!

some of us do

 

[waitasec]

There was no "wrong, evil or bad" before he ate the fruit.

Those things, in this context, are nothing more than our knowledge of them.

No, silly. Through eating a magic apple.

I answered your question the first time you asked it. I'm not the one who is rationalizing.

if you call a non-answer an answer:ignore:

 

[it's_sam]

I do have to say i think something is missing from this... I think its that knowing God said not to eat it was wrong to do so at that point. But the actual physical act was just eating a apple. The real thing that had never happened before was a consequence.

 

[it's_sam]

It whent from things just were and always moving, to things were comming back.

 

[waitasec]

I do have to say i think something is missing from this... I think its that knowing God said not to eat it was wrong to do so at that point. But the actual physical act was just eating a apple. The real thing that had never happened before was a consequence.

then why call it the tree of knowledge of good and evil? once the option was set up for Adam, that was when 'god' opened the door to his freedom of will, the original sin, in my HUMBLE opinion

 

[it's_sam]

Because it still had to be something for us if not for him. Like a stepping stone you have to take the first step to finish your journey.

 

[idea]

I do have to say i think something is missing from this... I think its that knowing God said not to eat it was wrong to do so at that point. ....

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “In the Beginning”: A Latter-day Perspective

The Lord gave Adam and Eve four commandments in the Garden of Eden. They were to multiply and replenish the earth (see Gen. 1:28; Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:28). They were to govern the earth wisely (have dominion over it) (see Moses 2:28; Abr. 4:26). They were not to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and if they did they would experience serious consequences (see Gen. 2:17; Moses 3:17; Abr. 5:13). And they were to remain with each other (see Gen. 2:24; Moses 3:24; Abr. 5:18). In the case of two of these commandments—to multiply and replenish the earth and to refrain from partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—Adam and Eve had to choose which they were to obey. Procreation was not possible for them in their immortal state (see 2 Ne. 2:22–25), yet Heavenly Father would not rob them of their agency by making the choice for them. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so.” 19 In essence the Lord told Adam that there were two directions to go, each with its unique consequences—and that Adam was to choose which one.

From President Brigham Young we learn: “Some may regret that our first parents sinned. This is nonsense. If we had been there, and they had not sinned, we should have sinned. I will not blame Adam or Eve. Why? Because it was necessary that sin should enter into the world; no man could ever understand the principle of exaltation without its opposite; no one could ever receive an exaltation without being acquainted with its opposite. How did Adam and Eve sin? Did they come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should. Then came the curse upon the fruit, upon the vegetables, and upon our mother earth; and it came upon the creeping things, upon the grain in the field, the fish in the sea, and upon all things pertaining to this earth, through man’s transgression.” 20


http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/22-25#22

2 nephi 2:11-the end
opposition is needed in all things.

The theory of relativity is based on the idea that some things do not exist without opposition. Velocity for example - a single object in a void with nothing to compare it to has no velocity. With nothing to compare it to, you cannot tell if it is moving or not. For such an object velocity is not zero – it is not anything. Velocity does not exist except through opposition.

Velocity, force, … life does not exist without death… or more descriptively, sentient life – what does it require to be sentient? To be able to think, to have a free will – to be a perfect creation? Thought, free agency – requires choices. Now I suppose you could argue – choose between an apple and an orange – two harmless choices – rather than choose between the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil – sure, you could limit your choices in this way – but you would also be limiting your depth of existence, your depth of free will. God is infinite, and in the eternal scheme, He has given us potential for limitless free will. I say potential, because we can limit our choices. Choosing evil limits choices, choosing good opens up more choices – an addict does not have the choice to obtain anymore – someone who is divorced can no longer choose to stay married etc. etc.. One definition of “good” is – all things that preserve your free agency.

good does not exist without evil… good is a relative term... it requires evil in order to define it. Just another extension of the theories of relativity.

It must needs be that there was an opposition…


2 Nephi 2:11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.


all things must have vanished away.... either everything exists, or nothing does.