The End

[nPeace]

Don't be too sure of it - Quantum Mechanics. Do you think what you believe is the beginning and end of knowledge?

I feel sure.
I believe the true knowledge is found in the scriptures, so I believe that those searching for knowledge will find out eventually. Is Quantum Mechanics heading there? Time will tell.

Some call energy god since its a sustainer without origin. Humans put labels and define it to where life makes sense to them. Spirit is the Motion of energy. Without energy/movement/spirit no life. This is where our emotions and spirituality come from and develops. Our soul is what we "think" our bodies are disattached to and is awareness itself. Its what we experience when we meditate. It's conciousness.

God/energy/spirit is the sustainer. As for him being a person, have emotions, and such, that sounds far fetched. Energy doesn't create (doesn't begin) but forms and sustains.

How is god the beginning when It has no beginning? By its nature, it's just the energy/spark of life. By what means and where do you find there is anymore to this spark than the nature and its purpose?

I don't put labels and define it to where life makes sense to me. I base what I believe about God, on what the Bible says about God. To do otherwise, I think would be to do what others who have no source of information do - create a concept of God, from personal views, and ideas - as you described.

God is the beginning - meaning that he is the beginning from which all things began.
I'm not sure how else I can explain it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I feel sure.
I believe the true knowledge is found in the scriptures, so I believe that those searching for knowledge will find out eventually. Is Quantum Mechanics heading there? Time will tell.



I don't put labels and define it to where life makes sense to me. I base what I believe about God, on what the Bible says about God. To do otherwise, I think would be to do what others who have no source of information do - create a concept of God, from personal views, and ideas - as you described.

God is the beginning - meaning that he is the beginning from which all things began.
I'm not sure how else I can explain it.

The first part, you believe the bible (which is a label or descriptor) defines god. I wrote it very mundane, but you can stick any source or label and the context is the same.

The last part, I dont get it. I mean, I never heard of anything just appearing. Its time period and nature of the earth (and why the earth and not mars?) doesnt invalidate laws of physics and life evolves, recycles, reforms, and is reborn back into existence/reality/life.

I can explain it because I can see it and its not a past or origin but something on going. Something that sustains everything and not specific to people on earth and earth in general.

We can explain and make greater anything in the past because no one can prove otherwise. However, when we continue to see the process these days for some reason origin stops short. Life doesnt work that way.

Though I wish I can get further in the god-origin conversation. I never read in the bible any details about it; so, if that is where you bsae truth, can you say the logistics of god being the origin or do you take it at face value?

 

[Craig Sedok]

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." - Semisonic

"Everything that has a beginning has an end..." - The Oracle


It is generally agreed upon both in scripture and in science that there is a beginning (no, this thread isn't about EvC) and that there will be an end. The human race began and like many other species, will ultimately become extinct.

It is commonly known in the scientific community that the sun will become a red giant and will ultimately envelop the earth. But I think it's quite likely that the human race will become extinct long before this occurs.

Scientifically or religiously, how do you think will we meet our end? What lies beyond?

End is something. And beginning was another. Human race. A stone was tossed and it was skipped. A fossil was found and we feel it in our hands. As long as human nature has a memory, nothing will become extinct. No end in site. Dig it?

 

[nPeace]

The first part, you believe the bible (which is a label or descriptor) defines god. I wrote it very mundane, but you can stick any source or label and the context is the same.

There is an origin for all things - except God.
The books found in the Bible had an origin, and those who wrote them claim they were of divine origin, that is, the words were God-breathed.
Your concept had an origin, and likely that origin is based on the various bits of knowledge you gathered while growing from youth till now. So your concept of God is based on ideas you formed from your experience.

If the scriptures are truly God-breathed as the writers claim, then there should be some evidence of this, which I believe there is.

The last part, I dont get it. I mean, I never heard of anything just appearing. Its time period and nature of the earth (and why the earth and not mars?) doesnt invalidate laws of physics and life evolves, recycles, reforms, and is reborn back into existence/reality/life.

I can explain it because I can see it and its not a past or origin but something on going. Something that sustains everything and not specific to people on earth and earth in general.

We can explain and make greater anything in the past because no one can prove otherwise. However, when we continue to see the process these days for some reason origin stops short. Life doesnt work that way.

Though I wish I can get further in the god-origin conversation. I never read in the bible any details about it; so, if that is where you bsae truth, can you say the logistics of god being the origin or do you take it at face value?

My understanding is that God didn't just appear, but always was.
As humans, we cannot fathom everything. If we did, we would be super - beyond this life-form. In fact, we would have to be eternal - existing from everlasting to everlasting.
The only one like that, is God. So he understands everything.
Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
Psalm 90:2

So to believe that we must be able to know of, and understand everything, is unrealistic.
Psalm 93:2; Isaiah 40:28; Habakkuk 1:12

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is an origin for all things - except God.
The books found in the Bible had an origin, and those who wrote them claim they were of divine origin, that is, the words were God-breathed.
Your concept had an origin, and likely that origin is based on the various bits of knowledge you gathered while growing from youth till now. So your concept of God is based on ideas you formed from your experience.

If the scriptures are truly God-breathed as the writers claim, then there should be some evidence of this, which I believe there is.


My understanding is that God didn't just appear, but always was.
As humans, we cannot fathom everything. If we did, we would be super - beyond this life-form. In fact, we would have to be eternal - existing from everlasting to everlasting.
The only one like that, is God. So he understands everything.
Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
Psalm 90:2

So to believe that we must be able to know of, and understand everything, is unrealistic.
Psalm 93:2; Isaiah 40:28; Habakkuk 1:12

If no one can understand anything, how do people 2000 years ago more acceptable to understand the divine than people in the 21st century?

We experience the god of our own understanding but once you find god elsewhere, it becomes just a mystery you can't solve. Mysteries arent spiritual experiences. What we know and grow from are. So, the bible would be relevant for the people of that day. But for its words to be relevant today is like mirroring John, Paul, and Moses experiences but not your own.

Also, how is god greater? Understanding ourselves is a mystery and we are growing in that understanding but that doesnt invalidate what we do know is just as much relevant as what don't if not moreso.

I don't know god from an abrahamic understanding of the term. The bible doesn't describe gods nature just the traits to which that nature has. So, it's saying John has a blue shirt and loves his child but when asked what john, no one says he is a human being.

Same as god. Experiencing god let's you know it's nature. Reading it tells you about it but not its nature. So you'd have to describe what god is to make any understanding of the bible and what people say About his character.

 

[nPeace]

If no one can understand anything, how do people 2000 years ago more acceptable to understand the divine than people in the 21st century?

I didn't say "no one can understand anything".
I said, we humans cannot understand everything.
There is a different between everything and anything.
Can humans understand everything, do you think? If so, please explain how that is possible.

We experience the god of our own understanding but once you find god elsewhere, it becomes just a mystery you can't solve. Mysteries arent spiritual experiences. What we know and grow from are. So, the bible would be relevant for the people of that day. But for its words to be relevant today is like mirroring John, Paul, and Moses experiences but not your own.

So, when you say, "We experience the god of our own understanding", you are saying that god is a concept you create from your own experiences. In other words, you create your own god from your mind.

That is not what John, Paul, and Moses, nor any of the other Bible writers did.
Their experience with God was something they described a real. They spoke of a realm beyond the earth, where they interacted with higher life forms - spirit. They had both spiritual and physical evidence.
It was not a concept they conjured up in their mind.

Also, how is god greater? Understanding ourselves is a mystery and we are growing in that understanding but that doesnt invalidate what we do know is just as much relevant as what don't if not moreso.

It seems to me, that any god you speak of is only mortal - the one you call god - Yourself.

God is greater, in that, he is the true and living God, maker of heaven and earth, and all that dwell therein.
Paul conveyed this message to people who had wrong ideas, and uncertainties...
Acts 17:23-28
23 . . .while passing along and carefully observing your objects of veneration, I found even an altar on which had been inscribed ‘To an Unknown God.’ Therefore, what you are unknowingly worshiping, this I am declaring to you. 24 The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’
Revelation 14:6

I don't know god from an abrahamic understanding of the term. The bible doesn't describe gods nature just the traits to which that nature has. So, it's saying John has a blue shirt and loves his child but when asked what john, no one says he is a human being.

Same as god. Experiencing god let's you know it's nature. Reading it tells you about it but not its nature. So you'd have to describe what god is to make any understanding of the bible and what people say About his character.

The Bible does describe God's nature. Jesus said, "God is a spirit."
Although it does not specify ever detail, it does help us to understand that God is 'abundant in dynamic energy', and his power is unlimited and ultimate. There is nothing physical that can affect spirit. He controls the most powerful of forces - his active force, holy spirit - which is not a life form.
He gave mortal man part of his nature. That's why we are conscious beings that communicate with language and emotions, and have basic spiritual needs.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No one knows. My religion doesn't have much to say about it. The Gods are immortal and eternal so They'll certainly be fine. As for humans, if technology advances enough, we may transcend biology all together and become digital beings. The Sun isn't going to die for billions of years from now so certainly that's not a threat now. Humans will adapt to climate change as we always adapt to things. So I don't see us going anywhere as a species for the foreseeable future, even if we may have hard times in the interim.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I didn't say "no one can understand anything".
I said, we humans cannot understand everything.
There is a different between everything and anything.
Can humans understand everything, do you think? If so, please explain how that is possible.

Yes. I said it. I dont see how we can know more now than before when even in biblical times no one knew everything. How does 2,000 years invalidate that rule?

So, when you say, "We experience the god of our own understanding", you are saying that god is a concept you create from your own experiences. In other words, you create your own god from your mind.

No. God IS our own experiences. God IS prayer. God IS worship. It isnt in nor a part of, the things we do are part of and as god.

But, yes, our experiences also come from the minds interpertation of them. So, John Smith of the 21st century see life different and god than a person would in biblical days. The god christians feel is the same in the OT and NT is quite different perspective than how jews see god and they were and are here way before christians became christians.

That is not what John, Paul, and Moses, no

Their experience with God was something they described a real. They spoke of a realm beyond the earth, where they interacted with higher life forms - spirit. They had both spiritual and physical evidence.
It was not a concept they conjured up in their mind.

What happened between then and now that we dont have the same level of divinity in the 21st century they had then? When did it stop?

We all base our experiences and interpretation of our experiences from our mind. Basic Psychology.

Not imagination but ones thought process.

It seems to me, that any god you speak of is only mortal - the one you call god - Yourself.

Mortal? I never heard of god being mortal; as in a human being. Im not trinitian thinker.

Yes. God or awakened experiences among many other labels people give it is from and as ourselves. Not yours. Not mind. All humanity.

Seeing awakeness coming from an outside source doesnt invalidate nor make it immoral that others see god as an inside source.

The Bible does describe God's nature. Jesus said, "God is a spirit."
Although it does not specify ever detail, it does help us to understand that God is 'abundant in dynamic energy', and his power is unlimited and ultimate. There is nothing physical that can affect spirit. He controls the most powerful of forces - his active force, holy spirit - which is not a life form.

He gave mortal man part of his nature. That's why we are conscious beings that communicate with language and emotions, and have basic spiritual needs.

When you say energy, what do you mean by that?

A deity isnt a human. What is jesus father?

The god of my understanding is very simple without cultural explanations. I wasnt raised christian nor religious so my explanations may sound mundame, but they do because I dont have all the language and perception that tries to define gods nature.

We have a consciousness and emotions because they are god. Hard to explain but your emotions and experiences are born into god, as god, and just the experiences themselves in prayer and meditation becomes one with god.

When I think force, I think Star Wars. Energy may be a good word since everything is built and created into life by energy in its basic form. As for energy being a he, inspirating people, and telling X amount of people they are wrong in their understanding of god (not just you) is not quite how I picture the spark of life that has no nature nor definition. It. Just. Is.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, just what form does your knowledge of after death existence take?
Why? Why does what they say become truth or that the afterlife exists, simply because they may have "walked the earth"?

I find there is record of people who walked the Earth for 300 years after Christ lived on Earth called Christians.
If there were No Christians then Constantine would Not have involved himself with them.
What I find unique about 'Jesus walking the Earth' is that before Jesus was on Earth he lived in Heaven.
Scripture teaches that the God of the Bible sent the pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth.
What Jesus taught came from his God. Jesus taught what he learned from his God.
Jesus did Not teach an ' after-death experience ' but taught ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14.
The unscriptural ' afterlife ' teaching implies a person is more alive at death than before death.
Whereas the ' resurrection ' teaching is about being brought back to life at the time one is resurrected.
Some resurrected to heavenly life such as those who have a first or earlier resurrection as per Revelation 20:6.
The majority of people to have an earthly healthy-physical resurrection that will take place during Jesus' 1,000-year rule over Earth.
That is why the Bible teaches the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.... Acts 24:15.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." - Semisonic
"Everything that has a beginning has an end..." - The Oracle
It is generally agreed upon both in scripture and in science that there is a beginning (no, this thread isn't about EvC) and that there will be an end. The human race began and like many other species, will ultimately become extinct.
It is commonly known in the scientific community that the sun will become a red giant and will ultimately envelop the earth. But I think it's quite likely that the human race will become extinct long before this occurs.
Scientifically or religiously, how do you think will we meet our end? What lies beyond?

We can see that everything is perishable here on Earth, so I find that if Not for God then Earth would end.
In Scripture, the God of the Bible created the Earth to abide forever as per Ecclesiastes 1:4 B.
So, as we can change a garment to refresh oneself, God purpose is that Earth will always refresh itself.
We can see a small glimpse of that when man stops polluting, then Earth rebounds.
The ' new beginning ' from 'some other beginning's end' is going to start with Jesus governing Earth for 1,000 years.
Today's ' other beginning's end ' is when the powers that be will be saying, "Peace and Security..." and that will be the new beginning or the precursor to the coming ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
So, as science class and even churches teach destruction of Earth, what we can really learn from the Bible is that God is in control and will regulate things so that humble meek people will inherit the Earth forever because Earth will become a forever lasting beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was a sample for us to follow.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Bible does describe God's nature. Jesus said, "God is a spirit."
Although it does not specify ever detail, it does help us to understand that God is 'abundant in dynamic energy', and his power is unlimited and ultimate. There is nothing physical that can affect spirit. He controls the most powerful of forces - his active force, holy spirit - which is not a life form.
He gave mortal man part of his nature. That's why we are conscious beings that communicate with language and emotions, and have basic spiritual needs.

I can agree that that God's spirit is Not a life form, but that God sends forth His spirit as per Psalms 104:30.
God's powerful spirit is neuter as found at Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 which neuter "it" is Not physical.
Kind of like even today, we call a car or a ship as a ' she ' but it remains a neuter "it".

 

[nPeace]

Yes. I said it. I dont see how we can know more now than before when even in biblical times no one knew everything. How does 2,000 years invalidate that rule?

I'm sorry. You lost me. What?

No. God IS our own experiences. God IS prayer. God IS worship. It isnt in nor a part of, the things we do are part of and as god.

That's the god you created, Unveiled Artist. So that would make it your god, not mine... nor those in the Bible who worshiped the true God - Jehovah.

But, yes, our experiences also come from the minds interpertation of them. So, John Smith of the 21st century see life different and god than a person would in biblical days. The god christians feel is the same in the OT and NT is quite different perspective than how jews see god and they were and are here way before christians became christians.

That's not true. Can you prove otherwise?
The same God of the Hebrews, as is identified in the Hebrew scriptures, is the same God that Jesus and his apostles read about and spoke of - the same God that Christians today read and speak about, from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
Jesus himself identified that God - his father - as the same one mentioned in Genesis, as giving the first man a wife.

What happened between then and now that we dont have the same level of divinity in the 21st century they had then? When did it stop?

I don't find that to be the case, so you tell me. Show me the facts please, if you have any.

We all base our experiences and interpretation of our experiences from our mind. Basic Psychology.

Not imagination but ones thought process.

What do you mean? So if you got into an accident, or had an argument with someone, did you have an actual experience, that someone else who witnessed it can verify, or is that just your own thought processes?

Mortal? I never heard of god being mortal; as in a human being. Im not trinitian thinker.

Yes. God or awakened experiences among many other labels people give it is from and as ourselves. Not yours. Not mind. All humanity.

Seeing awakeness coming from an outside source doesnt invalidate nor make it immoral that others see god as an inside source.

You may not be trinitarian thinker, but your philosophy on god, seems to make it mortal, if I am understanding your point of view. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Is it not true that your idea of god is just a concept formed in the mind of a mortal?

When you say energy, what do you mean by that?

There are many forms of energy. I can't explain the form of energy no human knows. That would be equivalent to asking scientists to explain everything.

A deity isnt a human. What is jesus father?

Spirit. That's what he said. Did I not say that before? "God is a spirit." John 4:24
In this case, a spirit is a form of life that is vastly superior to us. Invisible, and unaffected by anything material/physical.

The god of my understanding is very simple without cultural explanations. I wasnt raised christian nor religious so my explanations may sound mundame, but they do because I dont have all the language and perception that tries to define gods nature.

We have a consciousness and emotions because they are god. Hard to explain but your emotions and experiences are born into god, as god, and just the experiences themselves in prayer and meditation becomes one with god.

The Bible does not say that, so I take it that this is a case of your believing that your philosophy is somehow better than what those who say they wrote from personal experience - both from what they physically and spiritually witnessed. 2 Peter 1:21

When I think force, I think Star Wars. Energy may be a good word since everything is built and created into life by energy in its basic form. As for energy being a he, inspirating people, and telling X amount of people they are wrong in their understanding of god (not just you) is not quite how I picture the spark of life that has no nature nor definition. It. Just. Is.

This is what I mean.
When one conjures up something from their mind, to project onto something, they create a concept of the thing.
I'm saying that this is in contrast with what the Bible writers said they experienced.
They are actually relating their real life experiences.
A skeptic may try to deny that those persons are speaking the truth, but can they prove that they aren't?

So, I am merely believing their testimony for which there is evidence that what they wrote is authentic.
I have not created a concept, and then try to claim that mine is better than what was before me. That would be just having philosophical arguments.
I would need to have some sort of evidence to back up what I say, rather than just saying what is in my mind, as though it is fact.

I just came across another piece of possible evidence - not completely verified, but we will likely find more and more evidence that gives the Bible more credence.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.

I'm sorry. You lost me. What?

I have to think about it

That's the god you created, Unveiled Artist. So that would make it your god, not mine... nor those in the Bible who w

The problem with this is, your belief makes other people who disagree with you wrong. Its one thing to disagree on scrpture interpretation. Its another to say Im wrong for how I see god compared to your definition of him.

Also, it also puts a barrier on the conversation when I never said how I see god (and use the word) is your god. Thats a total defense mechanism that wasnt intend to redefine your god based on how I use the term and define it.

That's not true. Can you prove otherwise?

Basic psychology. Here are some videos I like.

7 TED Talks on how your brain constructs reality
How our brain make sense of reality: How Your Brain Creates Your Reality - The Best Brain Possible

The Buddha explains it a lot better in regards to how our minds interpret the world and the connection we have (such as with our gods) that blinds us to the world and self/our mind as how it really is. We are in a delusion (and you cant prove delusions because you are in one) but to train the mind you see through that. If you want to, that is.

Only abrahmics worry about proof. This is just common knowledge. The latter part is my belief.

The same God of the Hebrews, as is identified in the Hebrew scriptures, is the same God that Jesus and his apostles read about and spoke of - the same God that Christians today read and speak about, from both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

Jesus himself identified that God - his father - as the same one mentioned in Genesis, as giving the first man a wife.

Yes. Each of you guys have various interpretation on the same scripture. Im just readng your intepretation on it.

I don't find that to be the case, so you tell me. Show me the facts please, if you have an

Its a question.

What do you mean? So if you got into an accident, or had an argument with someone, did you have an actual experience, that someone else who witnessed it can verify, or is that just your own thought processes?

Everything we interpret is ruled by the brain.
Our minds perceive and makes sense of what the brain picks up.
I remember you were saying that spirituality (however you phrased it) doesnt come from the mind

The manner in which you said it made as if Im telling you your beliefs comef rom your imagination. They arent fake just where you believe the source comes from is is your belief. Nothing wrong with that.

You may not be trinitarian thinker, but your philosophy on god, seems to make it mortal, if I am understanding your point of view. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is it not true that your idea of god is just a concept formed in the mind of a mortal?

God as a word and concept not the judiochristian definition, energy does not come from mortals. We are born into existence and die without our say in the matter. No culture. No interpretation. No material source. No opinion. Influences your birth. age. sickness. and death. The process and energy that makes events happen is what people call god. Whether you believe it or not doesnt change the fact you are born, live, age, and die.

Only abrahamics want proof. The rest of us observe, say thank you, live out, die, in the experience/god without needing to find reference books to confirm whats to us common sense.

That, and coming from mortals is not a negative thing. Thats all abrahamic.

There are many forms of energy. I can't expla

I have to do some research but my point is energy (chemical, sunlight, etc) helps sustain life. When we put culture, stories, beliefs, etc around to explain this life-force that we are born into, it becomes the base of some religions purpose and definition of how we came to be (say some think there is a creator). The development of religion has a long history. I did get a glimpse of it during art especially christianity. That-has a history that made me sad to where Im glad Im not part of that belief. To each his own.

Spirit. That's what he said. Did I not say that before? "God is a spirit." John 4:24
In this case, a spirit is a form of life that is vastly superior to us. Invisible, and unaffected by anything material/physical.

Whats the nature of a spirit?

Once you say its invisible, it makes it harder to define.

The Bible does not say that, so I take it that this is a case of your believing that your philosophy is somehow better than what those who say they wrote from personal experience - both from what they physically and spiritually witnessed. 2 Peter 1:21

Youre doing it again. Assuming Im saying something is greater or lesser, or judging you based on your knowledge that we just differ in perspective and believing and nothing more.

Opinions are just that. Christians have very beautiful beliefs when they can express it in their own words and experiences. Once they judge (as you are doing-assuming I said this or mean that) it looses its beauty. I can pick it up like kryptonite a mile away.

That, and in that part of the reply I didnt mention the bible; so, I dont see how your comment about the bible not saying X has anything to do with that comment.

This is what I mean.

When one conjures up something from their mind, to project onto something, they create a concept of the thing.

People who believe in the spark of life have personal experiences to which they (we) come to that conclusion. It isnt an imagination. ALL peoples beliefs, by their nature, comes from the mind. There are many types of confirmed biases that makes those beliefs you have and experiences attribute to an external cause (say god) when that isnt so.

If someone gets mad at you and you get angry back, they didnt do anything. How you reacted from their emotions is your emotions, controled and/or created by you. While some of us know this, they dont see the same logic when god is concerned. When you have a strong attachment to something (or someone like a family member) its hard to see outside of that point of view.

Not negative, just basic psychology.

But, anyway, thats what the mind does. Youre talking about imagination. The brain and mind by its nature "conjures up" concepts and ideas to make sense of our external and sensory experiences and how one persons experience they think its god while that same experience by someone else could be, I dont know, Zues.

They are actually relating their real life experiences.
A skeptic may try to deny that those persons are speaking the truth, but can they prove that they aren't?

Yes. A lot of our beliefs we have because of our experiences. Just I rather hear a persons experiences in this day because I can talk and conversate and learn something from it. Reading about experiences over 2,000 years ago, by multiple authors, different culture, many translations, in english, mind you with soo many bibles on the same thing kinda messes up one persons truth and another persons telephone stories.

uthentic.
I have not created a concept, and then try to claim that mine is better than what was before me. That would be just having philosophical arguments.

I would need to have some sort of evidence to back up what I say, rather than just saying what is in my mind, as though it is fact.

This is where confirmed bias comes in. Not bad. Just Human. Here is some more info about it: Avoiding Psychological Bias in Decision MakingHow to Make Objective Decisions

You gotta prove god exists (a spirit exist of some sort) to prove what you say is knowledge and not a belief or opinion. A persons experiences (especially over thousands of years ago) cant be varified. Its written but varrified as true and not just experiences (personal rather than objective) makes it harder to support your opinion on a solid ground.

I just came across another piece of possible evidence - not completely verified, but we will likely find more and more evidence that gives the Bible more credence.

Not completely varified???

Kinda proves my point there.

That, and why do you need evidence and historical findings to know and confirm what you believe?

Abrahamics do this a lot. I see it on t.v. and even sitcoms where people are trying to prove god as if they cant trust themselves and their experiences. If they find away to travel back in time, then we can get better answers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I just came across another piece of possible evidence - not completely verified, but we will likely find more and more evidence that gives the Bible more credence.

Last comment: Does it matter if there is evidence or not?

 

[nPeace]

Hm.


I have to think about it



The problem with this is, your belief makes other people who disagree with you wrong. Its one thing to disagree on scrpture interpretation. Its another to say Im wrong for how I see god compared to your definition of him.

Also, it also puts a barrier on the conversation when I never said how I see god (and use the word) is your god. Thats a total defense mechanism that wasnt intend to redefine your god based on how I use the term and define it.

This may be just a miscommunication issue.
I think if one makes god out to be something they think he/she/it is, then they ought to maintain that it is their god, and not everyone else's.
I believe in the God of the Bible - that is, the one described by the Bible writers, so when discussing that God, I can use the scriptures to argue for what I believe the writers are saying about God.
If the person disagrees, and insists otherwise, I accept that's the way God is for them. It's still not my God.
For example, I don't worship a triune God.
Recently someone said to me that I worship two Gods. I don't believe I do, and I know the reason for the person saying this. I will try to show the person why what they say is not true, but it doesn't bother me, one way or another. It's that person's opinion, and we are free to have our opinions.

If I am discussing with someone that doesn't believe in God, as described in the Bible, I accept that their God for them is as it is described in their holy books, by those before them, supposedly. It's still not my God, or gods - based on how many they are.

If I am discussing with someone who doesn't believe in God, as described in any book, then I conclude that that person has created a concept or idea of how they view God.
Am I wrong in this conclusion? I am open to someone showing me why, and maybe showing me that their concept is more than that, and maybe God communicated that to them.
However, I would then have to ask how the person can be sure that it was God communicating with them (I remember having that discussion with you before).
If the person insists that they know, and yet there is no credible information to back this up, then in my opinion, it's a concept the person conjured up in their mind, because it is what they want to believe.
That's how I see it.

Basic psychology. Here are some videos I like.

7 TED Talks on how your brain constructs reality
How our brain make sense of reality: How Your Brain Creates Your Reality - The Best Brain Possible

The Buddha explains it a lot better in regards to how our minds interpret the world and the connection we have (such as with our gods) that blinds us to the world and self/our mind as how it really is. We are in a delusion (and you cant prove delusions because you are in one) but to train the mind you see through that. If you want to, that is.

Only abrahmics worry about proof. This is just common knowledge. The latter part is my belief.

I think this is just an idea that persons use to try to explain what they don't understand. To me, it's another philosophy on life. Buddhism itself is a search for truth, including the meaning of life.

Yes. Each of you guys have various interpretation on the same scripture. Im just readng your intepretation on it.


Its a question.


Everything we interpret is ruled by the brain.
Our minds perceive and makes sense of what the brain picks up.
I remember you were saying that spirituality (however you phrased it) doesnt come from the mind

The manner in which you said it made as if Im telling you your beliefs comef rom your imagination. They arent fake just where you believe the source comes from is is your belief. Nothing wrong with that.

I think you misunderstood me there also.
I said experience - whether physical or spiritual - spiritual referring to what spiritual experiences the Bible writers described, such as when they said they were moved by holy spirit.
While skeptics may ascribe this to imagination, that doesn't mean they are right.

God as a word and concept not the judiochristian definition, energy does not come from mortals. We are born into existence and die without our say in the matter. No culture. No interpretation. No material source. No opinion. Influences your birth. age. sickness. and death. The process and energy that makes events happen is what people call god. Whether you believe it or not doesnt change the fact you are born, live, age, and die.

Only abrahamics want proof. The rest of us observe, say thank you, live out, die, in the experience/god without needing to find reference books to confirm whats to us common sense.

That, and coming from mortals is not a negative thing. Thats all abrahamic.

I accept that this is your explanation, but may I ask why you named this process god, instead of just considering it the process of life, or the process of life and death, or just simply life? Why god?
The more evidence for something, the more credible it is to a person that is uncertain or skeptical.

I have to do some research but my point is energy (chemical, sunlight, etc) helps sustain life. When we put culture, stories, beliefs, etc around to explain this life-force that we are born into, it becomes the base of some religions purpose and definition of how we came to be (say some think there is a creator). The development of religion has a long history. I did get a glimpse of it during art especially christianity. That-has a history that made me sad to where Im glad Im not part of that belief. To each his own.



Whats the nature of a spirit?

Once you say its invisible, it makes it harder to define.



Youre doing it again. Assuming Im saying something is greater or lesser, or judging you based on your knowledge that we just differ in perspective and believing and nothing more.

Opinions are just that. Christians have very beautiful beliefs when they can express it in their own words and experiences. Once they judge (as you are doing-assuming I said this or mean that) it looses its beauty. I can pick it up like kryptonite a mile away.

That, and in that part of the reply I didnt mention the bible; so, I dont see how your comment about the bible not saying X has anything to do with that comment.



People who believe in the spark of life have personal experiences to which they (we) come to that conclusion. It isnt an imagination. ALL peoples beliefs, by their nature, comes from the mind. There are many types of confirmed biases that makes those beliefs you have and experiences attribute to an external cause (say god) when that isnt so.

If someone gets mad at you and you get angry back, they didnt do anything. How you reacted from their emotions is your emotions, controled and/or created by you. While some of us know this, they dont see the same logic when god is concerned. When you have a strong attachment to something (or someone like a family member) its hard to see outside of that point of view.

Not negative, just basic psychology.

But, anyway, thats what the mind does. Youre talking about imagination. The brain and mind by its nature "conjures up" concepts and ideas to make sense of our external and sensory experiences and how one persons experience they think its god while that same experience by someone else could be, I dont know, Zues.



Yes. A lot of our beliefs we have because of our experiences. Just I rather hear a persons experiences in this day because I can talk and conversate and learn something from it. Reading about experiences over 2,000 years ago, by multiple authors, different culture, many translations, in english, mind you with soo many bibles on the same thing kinda messes up one persons truth and another persons telephone stories.



This is where confirmed bias comes in. Not bad. Just Human. Here is some more info about it: Avoiding Psychological Bias in Decision MakingHow to Make Objective Decisions

You gotta prove god exists (a spirit exist of some sort) to prove what you say is knowledge and not a belief or opinion. A persons experiences (especially over thousands of years ago) cant be varified. Its written but varrified as true and not just experiences (personal rather than objective) makes it harder to support your opinion on a solid ground.



Not completely varified???

Kinda proves my point there.

That, and why do you need evidence and historical findings to know and confirm what you believe?

Abrahamics do this a lot. I see it on t.v. and even sitcoms where people are trying to prove god as if they cant trust themselves and their experiences. If they find away to travel back in time, then we can get better answers.

A believes the Bible is true. B doesn't.
B believes that what he is saying is true. A doesn't.
This is where we are, I think you would agree.
This is why, to me it is important to have some sort of evidence that can verify one or the other.
I think there is a lot of evidence which supports the Bible. Internal evidence is strong, but external evidence along with internal makes an even stronger case.
The more witnesses, the more credible.

 

[gnostic]

It is commonly known in the scientific community that the sun will become a red giant and will ultimately envelop the earth.

Probably not envelop the earth (Mercury and Venus for sure, but not the Earth), but the near proximity of the red giant sun will turn Earth like Mercury and Venus are now. The heat and solar winds will strip away our atmosphere, and that will kill off all life on Earth.

Even marine life will not be safe, because the oceans will boiled, eventually evaporate entirely.

But our sun will not turn into red giant until another 5 or 6 billion years from now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This may be just a miscommunication issue.

I think if one makes god out to be something they think he/she/it is, then they ought to maintain that it is their god, and not everyone else's.

God is just a word, though. Hindus use god just as Pagan use the word god when talking about something faily common to all those involved in the conversation. I dont have a word for god; but, since thats a word we (since I live among christians) know, and I understand the general concept of it whether Hindu or Abrahamic, or Taoist, or Pantheist, etc. I stick with that term.

If I talk about the christian god, either A. people think Im christian because Im not sola scriptura and go by my own experiences and knowlege rather than having to confirm things verbatum. Id get a headache trying to study the bible in its many forms just to say on RF, Im right and youre wrong.

But the word/concept god isnt christian, jewish, nor muslim. If youre looking to talk about god of christianity, we would need to use that as a basis of conversation. Since I dont know what a god is (whati s a spirit), how do we go about that?

I believe in the God of the Bible - that is, the one described by the Bible writers, so when discussing that God, I can use the scriptures to argue for what I believe the writers are saying about God.

If the person disagrees, and insists otherwise, I accept that's the way God is for them. It's still not my God.
For example, I d

The thing is, you set yourself up as a them vs. me. If they dont understand, thats not my problem (to put it blunt). In conversations, both parties at least have to be on the same ground in concept. Two people can speak different languages, but if there is a translator, they could be saying the same thing just in their own language. But the key is to have the same language to which both parties understand. Saying "they dont know my language/my god" doesnt help unless we know what you mean by the term in your experiences not people who died thousands of years prior to your birth.

But, yes, it is your god. Its the god of your understanding. Its not my god. Its not Joe Smith. Its specific to your belief and how you see or interpret who god is based on what you use to confirm that belief and experience. Aka. we are not you.

For example, I don't worship a triune God. Recently someone said to me that I worship two Gods. I don't believe I do, and I know the reason for the person saying this. I will try to show the person why what they say is not true, but it doesn't bother me, one way or another. It's that person's opinion, and we are free to have our opinions.

Not many people are trinune believers. I dont see multiple gods regardless how you all interpert scripture. Its a strict monotheistic religion. How protestants and catholics try to define jesus and his father is so wide range from the JW to one side and Roman Catholics on another that its terribly difficult to know what you say is a fact. Maybe historic details, yes, but not of god.

If I am discussing with someone that doesn't believe in God, as described in the Bible, I accept that their God for them is as it is described in their holy books, by those before them, supposedly. It's still not my God, or gods - based on how many they are.

If you dont believe in god of the bible, we wouldnt know what god you are referring to. Since we only have the English version of the bible, if you say god, it says god, you quote the bible, and even believe in christian concepts, we would assume the bible is your authority. Going by that, if any non-christian were to use the bible, I wouldnt blame him unless you are clear that the bible doesnt confirm your faith.

Unless you are clear that you dont use the bible as your guiding princple as a christian (right?), we will go by the bible to understand your belief. Unless you tell us by your experiences what else can we use if you dont want to take our opinions into consideration?

If I am discussing with someone who doesn't believe in God, as described in any book, then I conclude that that person has created a concept or idea of how they view God.

That is wrong. Thats like saying because I dont like math when I read two plus two, you see it as four but you think I read it as five even though I tell you otherwise. All because I dont have a passion for math.

Youre judging my accuracy in interpretation by my belief system. That is very, how can I say, I cant think of a good phrase, but.

If god isnt your god then there is no them vs. you. There are different interpretations and concepts of gods. You feel is outside source. Some say its all things. Some say everything is a reflection of one god. Some treat each individualt thing as god. Some dont believe god interacts. Others dont even use the term god but the concept is the same.

Not to mention christians having their own plethora of interpretations falling back on jesus because they cant describe his father without him.

We all created our concept of god-you as well. Some of us dont see that as negative or bad. Different. Yes. Wrong or misguided. No.

However, I would then have to ask how the person can be sure that it was God communicating with them (I remember having that discussion with you before).

If the person insists that they know, and yet there is no credible information to back this up, then in my opinion, it's a concept the person conjured up in their mind, because it is what they want to believe. That's how I see it.

If you are using your definition and concept, whatever we say would most likely be something you disagree with. If you are open to understand how we see god to answer your question, you can compare and contrast your views but at least you give us our view without saying we are redefining your god because of it.

The second part, we know. You know. You are asking us for evidence as if your critiera for its validity is universal to define the right god verses a mind-constructed one.

If you use our criteria, then you will see evidence. If you are asking us to provide evidence but you are using your critiera to prove the validity of that evidence, that doesnt make sense.

I kinda repeated this so I can get the right wording.

I think this is just an idea that persons use to try to explain what they don't understand. To me, it's another philosophy on life. Buddhism itself is a search for truth, including the meaning of life.

The Dharma IS the Truth. It IS the meaning of life. People search by following The Dharma. They search for the meaning using The Dharma. Once they practice and have understanding, they know the meaning of life. But, unlike abrahamics, it doesnt need to be a cosmic question. The Buddha actually talked against seeing meaning of life in that manner.

I accept that this is your explanation, but may I ask why you named this process god, instead of just considering it the process of life, or the process of life and death, or just simply life? Why god?

I live in a christian area. God concept (force, pattern, spirit, origin, sustainer, energy, and so forth) are all the same. Just the word god is the only word Im familar with to summarize these concepts. I also know more christian culture than I do Pagan, Hindu, NewAger, and so forth. God is not a christian concept.

The more evidence for something, the more credible it is to a person that is uncertain or skeptical.

Some people need that. My issue is why do you (all) feel this should be the same for other people? Why ask us for evidence just because you needed evidence to confirm your gods truth?

A believes the Bible is true. B doesn't. B believes that what he is saying is true. A doesn't. This is where we are, I think you would agree.
This is why, to me it is important to have some sort of evidence that can verify one or the other.
I think there is a lot of evidence which supports the Bible. Internal evidence is strong, but external evidence along with internal makes an even stronger case.
The more witnesses, the more credible.

All of you have the same thing. All opinions. Interpretations. Drawing variousc onclusions and I doubt majority of you arent even historians (degreed and studied etc) to varify if your interpretations are based on real evidence or someone elses translation of it. That and historians too have their own interpretations, so where does one start?

Who should I believe?

(I personally dont care about concrete credible evidence. I rather hear your guys experiences because thats how we come to faith-ideally-is how they connect to us and we to that given faith, religion, philosophy, or practice.)

 

[viole]

"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." - Semisonic

"Everything that has a beginning has an end..." - The Oracle


It is generally agreed upon both in scripture and in science that there is a beginning (no, this thread isn't about EvC) and that there will be an end. The human race began and like many other species, will ultimately become extinct.

It is commonly known in the scientific community that the sun will become a red giant and will ultimately envelop the earth. But I think it's quite likely that the human race will become extinct long before this occurs.

Scientifically or religiously, how do you think will we meet our end? What lies beyond?

What lies beyond?

Nothing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

For God's people, a new heaven and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. For the reprobate, eternal torments as is just and right...

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

2 Peter 3
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Viole 14:56. Verily verily I say to you. Listen to the good news !
We live in a naturalistic Universe. Enjoy the free lunch as long as it lasts, before going back to where you were before being born. Which was not so shabby, either.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

It's like having a new car. You wear down the car by too much driving. While you can fix the car up, one day it would have too many miles and start to collapse. Things are born, age, wear out, and die. Its the wear and tear we put on our bodies.

Our body can only rejuvenate but so long. If our body was meant to live we would not have a hundred year cut off point.

As for what sustains life, its energy. Once we die energy has nothing left to sustain. Energy isnt something that has an origin. It doesn't create. It sustains, forms, shapes, decreases when we die out, increase when we take care of our bodies (say exercise).

Some call energy god since its a sustainer without origin. Humans put labels and define it to where life makes sense to them. Spirit is the Motion of energy. Without energy/movement/spirit no life. This is where our emotions and spirituality come from and develops. Our soul is what we "think" our bodies are disattached to and is awareness itself. Its what we experience when we meditate. It's conciousness.

God/energy/spirit is the sustainer. As for him being a person, have emotions, and such, that sounds far fetched. Energy doesn't create (doesn't begin) but forms and sustains.

How is god the beginning when It has no beginning? By its nature, it's just the energy/spark of life. By what means and where do you find there is anymore to this spark than the nature and its purpose?

If God is energy, can you give us a figure? How many Joules is He? A figure in calories would also do.

Ciao

- viole