The contrast between Old and New Testaments

[RabbiO]

1) Simply following the Bible's text, nothing supports that Jesus was jewish. Talks like a non-jew, akts like a non-jew, and coming from Galilea. Galilea is a jewish name for land of goyim...

2) So if something does not walks like a duck, does not looks like a duck, does not sounds like a duck, it is a fair chance that it is not a duck... isn't it ?

1)

2) You are correct. Jesus was not a duck.

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

What verses about Aaron do you have in mind?

The wicked are ' executed ' for the sake of justice.

Wicked ?

The Israelites feared that he would not return and demanded that Aaron make them "gods" to go before them (Exodus 32:1). Aaron gathered up the Israelites' golden earrings and ornaments, constructed a "molten calf" and they declared: "These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 32:4)

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

Jesus was obviously raised as a Jew. He went to the synagogue and taught as one of his first things in ministry. (Luke 4:16-30)

Why obvious ?
Never behaved like the jews. Always argued with them kriticised, them, called them the children of Satan....
How could we see the obvious signs of the jewishness of Jesus?
He was born among them... Learned their religion in the synagogue... but never agreed with them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wicked ?
The Israelites feared that he would not return and demanded that Aaron make them "gods" to go before them (Exodus 32:1). Aaron gathered up the Israelites' golden earrings and ornaments, constructed a "molten calf" and they declared: "These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 32:4)

Thank you for your reply. I notice chapter 32 ends with God striking the people because ' they ' ( the people ) made the calf that Aaron had made - Exodus 32:35
So, Aaron was Not punished for making the golden calf.
Although Aaron had his shortcomings, and co-operated with the rebels, and later even gave Moses a lame or weak excuse - Exodus 32:22-24 - God did Not single out Aaron as a prime wrongdoer, but spoke to Moses the words of Exodus 32:10 against the people.
Moses brought the showdown - Exodus 32:26 - and All the sons of Levi responded, so that responding would have included Aaron - Exodus 32:28
The rest of the people were reminded they too bore guilt - Exodus 32:30
God showed that he forgave Aaron by allowing Aaron to become high priest - Exodus 40:12-13
Later Aaron's right heart attitude manifested itself by Aaron's immediate confession and his apology and his plea to have Moses intercede - Numbers 12:11-13
Aaron was Not the main or principle initiator of wrong actions but rather it was through peer pressure swaying him off a righteous course.
So, Aaron's name ends up an honorable name. Honorable because Jesus recognized the Aaronic priesthood - Psalms 115:10-12; Psalms 118:3; Psalms 133:1-2; Psalms 135:19; Matthew 5:17-19; Matthew 8:4

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why obvious ?
Never behaved like the jews. Always argued with them kriticised, them, called them the children of Satan....
How could we see the obvious signs of the jewishness of Jesus?
He was born among them... Learned their religion in the synagogue... but never agreed with them.

Jesus learned the Constitution of the Mosaic Law and Jesus kept the Law, the corrupted religious leaders were Not keeping the Law.
Jesus never agreed because those Jewish religious leaders were Not in agreement with the old Hebrew Scriptures. - Matthew 15:9
They were making and following their own customs or traditions outside of Scripture, but teaching them as if Scripture - Mark 7:3-5 Mark 7:6-8; Mark 7:9-11; Mark 7:12-13
Jesus gave his logical reasons why he pronounced his many ' woes ' against them at Matthew 23:2-35
God was Not their father - John 8:44 - because they did Not stand fast in religious truth. Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

... but rather it was through peer pressure swaying him off a righteous course.

I am not sure...
How someone can become a high priest, if, instead of leading the people to the right way, he follows the mob on the wrong way ?
What would have Moses do, if he is present ? He is helping to make the golden calf too, because the peer pressure?
Were the people REALLY wickid, or just confused ? They did not even received the ten commandment yet ! And they deserved to die ?

My problem, that it is very possible, that your explanation is also correct, but I think someone does not need to be theology student, to see that the "truth" is almost always the opposite what it seems on the first sight.

I think, that the basic ethics, what the religion transmits is simple. The lie is lie, the killing is killing, the justice is justice, regardless of the circumstances... Otherwise everithing becomes to soft, one could argue one side, the other on the other side, and both can be right...

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

Jesus learned the Constitution of the Mosaic Law and Jesus kept the Law, ...

It appears differently... For example in the case of the unfaithful women... By Mosaic Law, she had to be stoned to death... And Jesus prevented the execution.
And his views of circumsison and the Sabbath also proves otherwise....

Of course, he followed some "universal" laws and customs, and not a specific jewish set of rules...

And it is also an interesting twist, that some negative things can be attributed too the "corrupt jewish leaders"...
This opens an other dimension in the discussion, about the judaism as we know at what extent is corrupted ?
We know, that it was a huge effort on the side of the Pharisees to keep the words of God in secret, and the orld only should know it by they interpretations...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It appears differently... For example in the case of the unfaithful women... By Mosaic Law, she had to be stoned to death... And Jesus prevented the execution.
And his views of circumsison and the Sabbath also proves otherwise....
Of course, he followed some "universal" laws and customs, and not a specific jewish set of rules...
And it is also an interesting twist, that some negative things can be attributed too the "corrupt jewish leaders"...
This opens an other dimension in the discussion, about the judaism as we know at what extent is corrupted ?
We know, that it was a huge effort on the side of the Pharisees to keep the words of God in secret, and the orld only should know it by they interpretations...

There is the ' letter of the Law ' and there is the ' spirit of the Law '. Part of the spirit of the Law was: Mercy
That is why David and Bath-sheba were not executed.

Also, please keep in mind the KJV Bible has spurious verses including John 8:1-11. They are added on verses.
Just as Mark chapter 16 ends at Mark 16:8 . Verses 9-20 are also spurious add-on verses.

Please post which views differ about the Sabbath and circumcision ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am not sure...
How someone can become a high priest, if, instead of leading the people to the right way, he follows the mob on the wrong way ?
What would have Moses do, if he is present ? He is helping to make the golden calf too, because the peer pressure?
Were the people REALLY wickid, or just confused ? They did not even received the ten commandment yet ! And they deserved to die ?
My problem, that it is very possible, that your explanation is also correct, but I think someone does not need to be theology student, to see that the "truth" is almost always the opposite what it seems on the first sight.
I think, that the basic ethics, what the religion transmits is simple. The lie is lie, the killing is killing, the justice is justice, regardless of the circumstances... Otherwise everithing becomes to soft, one could argue one side, the other on the other side, and both can be right...

Aaron was Not perfect and gave in to peer pressure. Aaron repented and then did what was right in God's eyes. If errors was all that God watches then we would all fail.
Moses was Not present, and when Moses became present he took immediate action - Exodus 32:7 B
Weren't the people given the choice at Exodus 32:26 ? ______ Whoever would choose to be on God's side came to Moses. Choosing Not to be on God's side made them an enemy of God.
All the people sinned a great sinning - Exodus 32:30-32
How great was their sinning that they could end up with their names blotted out of God's book of life - Exodus 32:33; Revelation 3:5
True, they did Not yet have the Constitution of the Mosaic Law, but they knew immorality was wrong as Joseph earlier knew it was - Genesis 39:7-9 B

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think, that the basic ethics, what the religion transmits is simple. The lie is lie, the killing is killing, the justice is justice, regardless of the circumstances... Otherwise everithing becomes to soft, one could argue one side, the other on the other side, and both can be right...

Is killing, killing? because besides killing, there is murder and executions. Execution for the sake of justice.
Accidental killing ( manslaughter ) is Not intentional killing or murder. That is one reason ancient Israel had ' cities of refuge ' for accidental killing.
King David feigned a lie at 1 Samuel 21:10-12; 1 Samuel 21:13-15. David feigned insanity so as Not to divulge information the person was Not entitled to have.
We do Not have to divulge things to enemies. We would Not betray to enemies our spiritual brothers even under adverse conditions.
So, Not everything is black and white, so to speak, because there are ' grey ' areas of conscience.
Basically sinning is: either on purpose, deliberate, premeditated, willfull or Not. Wrongs can be committed by accident.
Different sides does call for judges - Psalms 82:1-3; Psalms 82:4-8 - and since human judges were to judge by using God's judgement on matters they were referred to as ' gods '.

 

[Milton Platt]

Yes



Your taking this verse out of context.

give us the context that makes this act moral.

While you are at it, give us the context that makes genocide, infanticide and slavery moral.

I thought Christians always thought morals were objective somehow. Are you saying that they actually change with the situation?

 

[RabbiO]

Never behaved like the jews. Always argued with them kriticised, them, called them the children of Satan....
How could we see the obvious signs of the jewishness of Jesus?
He was born among them... Learned their religion in the synagogue... but never agreed with them.

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

All the people sinned a great sinning - Exodus 32:30-32
B

Great sinning?
On Aaron' advise they .... constructed a "molten calf" and they declared: "These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 32:4)
So they respected in the golden calf the god who helped them to get out of Egypt...
Well... they needed an "image" of their god...
Is THAT a great sin?
I do not see here anything else than a great confusion of incredibly exhousted people, who were "rescued" from Egyipt, and AFTER that the bill was presented to them...
To be honest... it was not made clear, that only those should follow Moses out of Egypt, who follows blindly the rules... (clear rules?)
I still not see how is great sin NOT to follow a given religion.
How we know TODAY the people not deserve to die, for not following blindly Jehovah?

 

[metis]

Jesus was a Jew operating out of a general Jewish paradigm, but one who felt that there needed to be reforms. He was not the first Jew to take such a stance nor was he the last. To deny Jesus' Jewishness is to take him out of the context he was in and mostly related to. On top of this, his positions were not altogether different that some other liberal Pharisees, although there's not much doubt he went to a much further extent than most.

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

Jesus was a Jew operating out of a general Jewish paradigm,...

How much "in", and how much "out"?

I see much more differences with Jehovah than similarity...
Jehovah declared those who did not followed him enemies and killed them...
Jesus asked to love your enemy...

Jehovah promised material richess: "Thy gates also shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the wealth of the nations, and their kings led captive. "
Jesus was talking about spiritual richess... If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 

[metis]

How much "in", and how much "out"?

I see much more differences with Jehovah than similarity...
Jehovah declared those who did not followed him enemies and killed them...
Jesus asked to love your enemy...

Jehovah promised material richess: "Thy gates also shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the wealth of the nations, and their kings led captive. "
Jesus was talking about spiritual richess... If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

With regards to your question, that would depend largely on how one views the Christian scriptures in terms of accuracy, so there's no single answer. If one would take the position that they're entirely accurate, then the sections dealing with him as being God or like God, and those dealing with the supposed necessity of believing in him is necessary for "salvation", are definitely "out". Most of the rest are "in". The Sermon On the Mount, for example, is very "Jewish".

One can "love your enemy" and still defend one's self or people, just as a parent can discipline a child and yet still love the child. If all "good guys" refuse to defend other "good guys" from the murderous "bad guys", the "bad guys" win.

In Judaism, wars of defense are not only allowed, they are mandatory in terms of trying to protect the innocent. Wars of offense, which could only be called by a prophet, and not allowed otherwise, and since the prophetic age has long been over, only defense is allowed..

 

[RabbiO]

How much "in", and how much "out"?

I see much more differences with Jehovah than similarity...

Your knowledge and understanding of Judaism, in general and during the late Second Temple period specifically, seems limited to what you have read in Christian scripture. Every time, so far, that you have opined on the subject the only thing you have managed to do is stick your foot further and further down your throat.

 

[metis]

Your knowledge and understanding of Judaism, in general and during the late Second Temple period specifically, seems limited to what you have read in Christian scripture. Every time, so far, that you have opined on the subject the only thing you have managed to do is stick your foot further and further down your throat.

And athlete's tongue can be very nasty.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Great sinning?
On Aaron' advise they .... constructed a "molten calf" and they declared: "These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 32:4)
So they respected in the golden calf the god who helped them to get out of Egypt...
Well... they needed an "image" of their god...
Is THAT a great sin?
I do not see here anything else than a great confusion of incredibly exhousted people, who were "rescued" from Egyipt, and AFTER that the bill was presented to them...
To be honest... it was not made clear, that only those should follow Moses out of Egypt, who follows blindly the rules... (clear rules?)
I still not see how is great sin NOT to follow a given religion.
How we know TODAY the people not deserve to die, for not following blindly Jehovah?

Today everyone is asked to repent - 2 Peter 3:9; Acts of the Apostles 17:30-32
No one innocent will be in harm's way from the executional words from Jesus' mouth - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16
Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

It was the people who first approached Aaron, Not the other way around - Exodus 32:1
The people corrupted themselves - Exodus 32:7 B
The absence of a visible leader ( Moses ) left their temptation unchecked.
Was it just the image, or their immoral behavior with it that was the great sin ?_______ Exodus 32:8
Later, those same people were filled with un-restrained greed - Numbers 11:18-20; Numbers 11:32-34
Those same people murmured against the ones God put into position of leadership - Numbers 16:41-42 - and they even took up Baal worship - Numbers 25:1-3

 

[pozitÍv visszacsatolás]

Doesn't Exodus 23:4-5 bring out showing love for enemies as part of traditional Jewish custom ?

Is there an example in the Old Testament when this is applied ?
Because there are many examples of killing the enemy...