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The contrast between Old and New Testaments

Hi,

For a while, more and more disturbs me the contrasts I find between the concept of God of the two testaments.

Probably i am not the only one.
I would like to meet here some of those who has the same problem, and some of those who can try to explain it.

For the start here is a sentence from Psalms 137 :

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones Against the rock.

Can anyone imagine Jesus to say that?

Then Jehovah makes an alliance with the Satan to kill Job's family, just to see how deep is his faith?

The list is quite long...

I woud like to see how you see these.

One strong question arising from this as well : Was Jesus jewish?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
You're DEFINITELY not the only one.

The very first Christian "Bible" (it wasn't called that, but neither here nor there) was written by a guy, Marcion, who felt the the God of the Tanakh was evil, definitely not the God he worshiped, and so included in his Bible a heavily edited version of Luke's Gospel and ten of Paul's letters.

That said, yes, Jesus was Jewish (albeit a rather rebellious one), and I understand that in Judaism, the Tanakh is effectively useless without the Talmud.

Also, I understand that the character of Shaitan in Job, despite having basically the same name, isn't really the same figure as Christianity's "Satan".
 

Maponos

Welcome to the Opera
The bible is notoriously inconsistent with its depiction of Jehovah. I believe that it's said that Jesus 'didn't agree with the image of god in the old testament' or something similar.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Rabbi Segal (Schechter Institute of Jewish Studies) notes:

The last two verses are unquestionably harsh, even horrid. Unhappily, verse 9 accurately reflects the conduct of war in antiquity (cf. II Kings 8:12;15:16; Hos. 14:1; and others), echoes of which unfortunately exist to our day. The basic description in verse 9, which details verse 8, is not an imagined revenge, but a picture of what happened to the Israelites. It is a way of saying, “May the brutality you inflicted be inflicted upon you.”

These verses might also have been written from an historical perspective of retrospect, after the Israelites had been avenged. Although Cyrus (the Mede/Persian who captured Babylonia and allowed the return to Israeldecades after its destruction) was able to take Babylon itself without a fight, records of the preceding war across the empire include the following: “He killed the inhabitants… women and youngsters” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 314). A generation later, the new Persian king Darius would have to re-take rebellious Babylon, and there the records indicate that the defenders killed all the women and children [to save food supplies] near the end. If Psalm 137 was written subsequent to these dates (which fits the term “devastated one” for Babylonia, v. 8), it places in the mouths of the earlier exiled Israelites a prayer which the later psalmist knew would come true. In any case, the wish expressed in these verses is not for the speakers to exact revenge, but rather for an avenger to come on the scene. At the time, Israel was a conquered people, with no ability to engage anyone in war. This section is, beyond its repugnance, “an expression of powerlessness” (Bar Yosef).​

As for Jesus:

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.​
 
Yes



Your taking this verse out of context.

But what context would justify killing babies ?
(can that include the first borns in Egypt, and the children of Kananan?)


And about Jesus being jewish....
Yes ... Joseph was related to David... But then again, Joseph was not Jesus's father.
Jesus never described himself as jewish, nor the jews called him a jew.
His views of the circumscison and the sabbath also contradicting to his jewish origin.
The rituale of the Last Supper is much closert to the scythian blood aliance than any other jewis custom.
In Mesopotamia, thousands of years before the kings broke the bread and distributed ritually, saying, God is in it...
The jews accused him being "foreign agent" when the three magies come to greet him, saying that the eastern people come to greet their new king.
At the time of crucifiction there was a jewish custom, that the condemned on the way to execution stopped every 100 steps, to give a chance to anyone to say a good word for him.
But it never happend, despite Jesus helped a healed a lot of people...

So it looks like, that Jesus being jewish is rather just an assumption, because not his behavior, not the jews behavior towards him supports it.

Not to mention his teaching compared to Jehovah's cursing: Thus saith Jehovah, In the place where dogs licked the blood of Naboth shall dogs lick thy blood, even thine.

What Jesus said to the accusers of the unfaithful woman ? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And what said Jehovah ? : Jehovah make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when Jehovah doth make thy thigh to fall away, and thy body to swell; 22 and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, and make thy body to swell, and thy thigh to fall away.

I dont see the jewishness of Jesus from these things...
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Joseph was related to David...

Doubtful

More like mythology to rhetorically build divinity by matching previous mythological claims.

Joseph was not Jesus's father.

Probably was, or we don't know is acceptable.

So it looks like, that Jesus being jewish is rather just an assumption,

False.

Its not really debated with credibility he was anything other then an Aramaic Galilean Jew
 
Exactly, your reading it literally out of context to its true meaning

But what is the true meaning?

What is the true meaning of ordering the killing the people of Kanaan inkluding the children?
What is the true meaning, of that, when Moses comes down from the hill with the commandments, among them "thou shalt not kill" then the next minutes he orders to kill thousands of jews ?
Interesting twist in the story, that when the people asking Aaron, what shall they do, himself Aaron, suggests to make of the Golden Calf... Then him is the most active in killing.
 
More ignorant antisemitic seepage. :rolleyes:

How anisemitism come into this ?
Simply following the Bible's text, nothing supports that Jesus was jewish. Talks like a non-jew, akts like a non-jew, and coming from Galilea. Galilea is a jewish name for land of goyim...
So if something does not walks like a duck, does not looks like a duck, does not sounds like a duck, it is a fair chance that it is not a duck... isn't it ?
Why is someone deserves an antisemite label, who tring to look into this ?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Who would've thought, a book written by Jews differs from one written by Hellenised people.

Amazing.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hi,
For a while, more and more disturbs me the contrasts I find between the concept of God of the two testaments.
Probably i am not the only one.
I would like to meet here some of those who has the same problem, and some of those who can try to explain it.
For the start here is a sentence from Psalms 137 :
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones Against the rock.
Can anyone imagine Jesus to say that?
Then Jehovah makes an alliance with the Satan to kill Job's family, just to see how deep is his faith?
The list is quite long...
I woud like to see how you see these.
One strong question arising from this as well : Was Jesus jewish?

Yes, of course, Jesus was Jewish, The Jewish ancestral line was temple public record - 1 Chronicles the first 9 chapters, and see Luke chapter 3 ending with Luke 3:38

Satan, Not God, is the one who challenges us - Job 2:4-5 - that to touch our ' flesh '( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God.

Please notice in Psalm 137 is about the family line ( family name ) being wiped out - Isaiah 13:14-16; Isaiah 13:17-19 - and Not about a literal dashing of children against stones.
Just at the figurative ' smoke going up forever ' for Edom ( Idumea) - Isaiah 34:10; Psalms 137:7 - is Not a literal smoke but showing destruction as the wicked will be destroyed forever -Psalms 92:7
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But what is the true meaning?
What is the true meaning of ordering the killing the people of Kanaan inkluding the children?
What is the true meaning, of that, when Moses comes down from the hill with the commandments, among them "thou shalt not kill" then the next minutes he orders to kill thousands of jews ?
Interesting twist in the story, that when the people asking Aaron, what shall they do, himself Aaron, suggests to make of the Golden Calf... Then him is the most active in killing.

What verses about Aaron do you have in mind?

There is a difference between killing, murder, and an execution. Including a ' divine execution for justice sake '.
The wicked are ' executed ' for the sake of justice. Even in men's justice there are some crimes worthy of capital punishment.
Parents are responsible for minors - 1 Corinthians 7:14.
Even Noah was Not just an Ark builder, but a preacher forewarning those violent people - Genesis 6:11; 2 Peter 2:5
We can Not read hearts but God can, and God knows the point when people are beyond reform, beyond repentance - Isaiah 11:3-4.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So we can agree, that "love thy enemy", "hold the other cheek", "If someone hits you with a stone, hit him with a bread" is not coming from traditional jewish custom?

Doesn't Exodus 23:4-5 bring out showing love for enemies as part of traditional Jewish custom ?_______
When Jesus said - Matthew 5:43 - you have " heard " ( oral ) to hate your enemies, Jesus was Not quoting from the Constitution of the Mosaic Law but that they heard ( rumors )
The false religious leaders were saying ( Not referring to the old Hebrew Scriptures ) but saying from their own traditions outside of Scripture - Matthew 15:9; Mark 7: 1-7,13
See also Leviticus 19:18
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But what context would justify killing babies ?
(can that include the first borns in Egypt, and the children of Kananan?)
Any context ever given for war presumes to legitimize the killing of women and babies. Shell or drop bombs on a town and you're pretty much guaranteed to kill civilians.
 
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