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Featured The Consent Argument

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by nPeace, Nov 21, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Please Note!
    If you are not here to debate the OP, or you just want to attack the poster, or make disparaging remarks, please refrain from posting in this thread.
    If however, you cannot help yourself, as it makes you feel good about yourself, and you want to feel even better to receive a pat on the back from your buddies, it's a free world. Go right ahead and knock yourself out.

    On the other hand I hope you are above that, and can support your side of the argument, with something more than a pea shooter. :grin:

    By the way, if any of this makes you [​IMG] just go to the bathroom, and stay out the kitchen... please. :)

    The argument goes like this... If two consenting people, wants to... then there is nothing wrong with...
    To put it in another way - the way it come over to me.... Something is right if the parties involved consent to it.

    Is this view reasonable, ethical, and sound, or is it just a poor excuse, and a weak argument?
    I want to show how it's the latter.

    1.
    Talking about children at the age of puberty. If two children ages 10-15 wants to engage in sexual intercourse, either with children their age, or an adult, is that considered right?
    The answer varies apparently. Some say yes, Some say no, but it depends on where one lives.
    For example...
    In some countries the age of consent is at 9 years old, some 10, 11... (the argument that they are not adults is irrelevant, since this is not consistent, but changes over time).
    Adult - Wikipedia.
    Biologically, an adult is an organism that has reached sexual maturity. In human context, the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts. In contrast to a "minor", a legal adult is a person who has attained the age of majority and is therefore regarded as independent, self-sufficient, and responsible. The typical age of attaining legal adulthood is 18, although definition may vary by legal rights and country.

    Human adulthood encompasses psychological adult development. Definitions of adulthood are often inconsistent and contradictory; a person may be biologically an adult, and have adult behavior but still be treated as a child if they are under the legal age of majority. Conversely, one may legally be an adult but possess none of the maturity and responsibility that may define an adult character.

    List of countries by age of consent - Wikipedia
    aoc.png

    Why is something not automatically right, because those involved consent?
    It is because there are factors involved. 1) There are laws prohibiting it. 2) There are underlying principles governing those laws (For example... taking into consideration the development of the child - both mentally and physically). 3) It's a moral issue.
    Consent does not mean right, in this case, It only means it is accepted by some.

    2.
    Two adults, wants to engage in sexual intercourse.
    Is it right because they are both adults, and consent?
    The answer again varies. Some say yes. some say no.
    However, again, it depends on some factors - including where one lives.
    For example...
    If they are of the same sex, it is a violation of law, in at least 70 countries... and or of different sexes it is against the law of some cultures and communities.
    Adultery is extramarital sex that is considered objectionable on social, religious, moral, or legal grounds. Although the sexual activities that constitute adultery vary, as well as the social, religious, and legal consequences, the concept exists in many cultures and is similar in Christianity, Judaism and Islam. A single act of sexual intercourse is generally sufficient to constitute adultery, and a more long-term sexual relationship is sometimes referred to as an affair.

    Some of these acts are punishable with death - 13 countries where being gay is legally punishable by death
    Both same sex intercourse, and extramarital intercourse are against the laws of God, according to the Bible, and those who hold to Bible principles. (Mark 7:20-23 ; Matthew 15:19, 20 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)... as well as others.

    ssm.png

    There is also the law of marriage.
    If one of the parties is married, how is it right for that person to adulterate the marriage bed? How is it morally right to be unfaithful to one's mate - breaking the marriage vow (which isn't much of a vow in some cases, anyways, in my opinion)?
    The wife or husband who cherishes the oneness of the family, is hurt.
    So the argument that two consenting adults are not doing anything wrong, or not hurting anyone, is nothing more than a lie - a lie told to self, and others.


    Conclusion
    Considering all these factors... the conclusion is, the consent argument, is a subjective opinion which is presented as a reasonable and sensible 19th century intelligent understanding. However the facts show different.
    It is simply an argument made to excuse one's choice of conduct, and is built on the lie that no one is hurt, and that whatever one chooses to accept is right.
    One certainly has the right to choose, but that does not mean their choice is right.

    Anyone with enough guts to contend? :grinning:
     
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  2. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
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    Sure, if no one can consent how do we decide if anything is right.

    You know me and slap me on the back in public someone calls the cops after seeing it. Do you go to jail for physical abuse because I can't legally consent.
     
  3. Rival

    Rival Tender Warrior
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    This picture is wrong. In the UK it's 16.
     
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  4. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
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    Minors cannot legally consent to sex with an adult. Unfortunately there are still backwards areas of the US that still allow what is basically child marriage to adults, so the law isn't completely consistent there, sadly.

    I don't know about other countries, but America isn't guided by Biblical law and I don't care what Yahweh thinks of anything, so that's irrelevant.
     
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  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Willful mutual adult consent is something that is going to happen no matter what.

    But to let a child, or teenager do whatever they want is immoral.

    But we cannot and should not interfere with adult consent unless it is criminal and infringes on the rights of others.

    An adulterous affair breaking marriage vows is immoral. The other partner should have the choice to end the marriage without responsibility to the adulterer.

    Males and females should have equal rights and laws to protect themselves from dishonest relationships.
     
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  6. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Holidays!
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    This whole thing is a strawman. First of all, let's stick to adults. So all of #1 is moot.

    #2 - you move the goalposts from what is right (morally) to what is legal in various countries. I'm sure you and I can agree that just because something is legal or illegal in some country, or even in many countries, that is not relevant to whether it is immoral, right?

    If so, all the stats about what's legal and where are completely irrelevant to whether an act is moral.

    #3 - adultery. Nearly everyone I know, of all persuasions, would agree that if you are in a monogamous relationship, it is unethical for you to go behind your partner's back and cheat on them with someone else. So again, this whole diversion knocks down a strawman.

    The question is if two adults who are not in a sexual relationship with anyone else (or even if they are, but their other partners agree to an open relationship) freely consent to have sex with each other, whether they're married to each other or not - what is morally wrong with that? Do explain.
     
    #6 Left Coast, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    As yet, possibly never, there is no world government so one must abide by national law.

    So assuming you meet the laws of the nation. You then have to contend with local bigotry, customs, bylaws etc.

    Consent for you is not necessarily valid for other people.
     
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  8. joe1776

    joe1776 Well-Known Member

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    Conscience (moral intuition) does not seem to be bothered by consensual acts because there is no victim. However, conscience operates on a case-by-case basis. Conscience does not help us write flawless criminal statutes.

    Therefore, local biases are influential in writing laws but in the actual case, a 14 year-old might be less mature than a 12 year-old. So, whether an act is immoral and whether it is illegal are two different questions.
     
    #8 joe1776, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Mindless and repugnantly offensive drivel that still grasps desperately at straws to compare homosexuality to pedophilia, and made heinous by downplaying and dismissing the necessity and empowerment of consent.
    And lets not forget mores and norms are not synonymous or interchangeable with laws.
     
    #9 Shadow Wolf, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    It varies by state here.
     
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  11. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    Laws that relate to sexuality are tricky. In today's U.S. culture it would be impractical to make sex between consenting unmarried adults illegal. If a large percentage of the population believed that such sex was immoral and harmful to society at large, and worthy of legislation, we would have those laws. Most people seem to think that consensual sex between an 18 year old and a 40 year old (unmarried) should be legal, but consensual sex between a 16 year old and a 40 year old (unmarried) should be a serious crime. Personally I find both to be immoral but I accept the fact that there will never be laws against sex among consenting adults in this country. So, I then need to weigh in on what age strikes me as acceptable to consent. I suppose 18 is the answer.

    What about teenager with teenager sex? It should be illegal. But again, very hard to enforce. There must be some laws in place that say if you're 17, you can't have consensual sex with a 13 year old. But then again, how many really "mature for their age" 13 year old girls have 17 year old boy friends, and yes, they are having sex. What to do about this?

    The question of age of consent to marry is different. Personally I think a person should be 18 before they can legally marry. But my mom and dad married at the ages of 16 and 19, raised a family and remained married to each other until they both passed away in their 80s. So I would not want to un-do that marriage which started at a young age. So this is a tricky question for me. The obvious problem is if you have a 16 year old girl who is pressured against her will to marry an older man. Another problem is suppose a 17 year old girl gets pregnant by mistake but decides she wants to marry the father and raise the child as a family. The law should not get in the way of letting that happen. So again, this is tricky.

    Adultery is another tricky question. I think adultery should be illegal. But again, it's difficult to pass and enforce laws when the masses don't want to. I especially believe adultery should be considered in cases of divorce. So many states are "no fault" divorce, that no matter how reprehensible the behavior of one in the marriage may be, that does not change the marriage settlement agreement, including required payments. (There would be exceptions such as abuse, but adultery is not considered).

    In my own Church in the 1800's some members practiced polygamy. (This practice was stopped and has been forbidden in my church for about 130 years). In those days Church members felt strongly that this was protected by the Constitution as freedom of religion. The masses in the U.S. and the Supreme Court disagreed. They found the practice to be immoral and therefore not protected. I don't know that the consenting adult argument was used back then. I do know that my personal ancestors who practiced polygamy in the 1800s felt the U.S. had trampled on their personal freedoms, as the courts prohibited them from doing that which they held as a deeply religious tenet and personal adult decision.

    So what do I conclude? If people believe something hurts others, is morally wrong, and is bad for society, they will not buy the "consent" argument. If they believe there is no harm done, and it's a personal moral choice, they will accept the consent argument, as long as they consider both parties to have sufficient mental and emotional capacity (age) to make a responsible choice. We live in a very diverse culture with varying views. We can make our case on what we think is bad enough to be illegal, even with consent. In the end, the voice of the people and the courts will decide, and those decisions are driven by the moral compass and temperature of the people. We need to live within that system, as it's the best we have.
     
    #11 Scott C., Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  12. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    The problem is in assuming that all consent is free and informed. When in fact most of the time it is coerced, and relatively uninformed, even among adults.
     
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  13. Almighty God

    Almighty God Member

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    Interesting. I feel that driving is a much bigger responsibility than sex because of its risk to the lives of oneself and others. So, an age for sexual consent being higher than the driving age does not make sense to me. I'd say age of consent should be 16 (as it already is in many states), minimum age to get a drivers' license should be 18.
     
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  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Amd that is a very scary thing when you've had to live with this process and the politicians throwing your rights out the window and clearning the way so the religious can discriminate against you.
    We live in a culture where people need to mind their own damn business and quit trying to run the lives of others over things that are not their concern or business amd are causing no harm, and where they need to knock off demanding legislation that affirms their morality (like your church and their bigoted and hated Prop 8 here - Mormons need to mind that huge beam in their own eyes).
     
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  15. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    When you say the age of consent for sex should be 16, do you mean to consent to sex with other teenagers or also with adults?
     
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  16. Almighty God

    Almighty God Member

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    It's an arbitrary age. I'm not really sure what it should be. But, my main point is I think the driving age should be higher. And, yes, for whatever age it is, it should include consent with all ages, unless there is some kind of real-world power dynamic between the people possibly.
     
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  17. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    Well, it is terrifying every time a 16 year old gets behind the wheel. But the differences between driver safety and sexual issues are so different that I don't know how to compare them.
     
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  18. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    These maps are inaccurate and a bit misleading. As @Rival says, it is wrong for the UK, in which 16 is the age of consent. Also, there is only one country in the world (Yemen) with a notional age of consent of 9 and no country apart from that with an age of consent under 12. In many cases there is a general age of consent but then an exception to a younger age, for partners that are close in age. For example in Italy it is 14, but 13 if both partners are within 3 years of each other's age. A sensible provisional to prevent exploitation while allowing that sexual maturity often occurs quite early. On this map, Italy is shown as green, i.e. 18, which is obviously wrong.

    But leaving aside the inaccuracy of the maps, sure, the view taken of the age of consent varies by country. And indeed, these varying provisions will be judgements made about the age at which two people are adult enough to give informed consent to sexual activity, the object being to prevent exploitation and potential psychological damage.

    So your assertion that "the argument goes like this" is wrong. It is never just about consent but about the age at which it is considered informed consent.

    Furthermore your extrapolation that a thing is right if the parties involved consent does not follow at all. Two parties can consent to rob a bank, for example.
     
    #18 exchemist, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  19. Scott C.

    Scott C. Just one guy

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    I don't know you, but I wish I did, and I would be your friend. Really.
     
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  20. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    That's generally how I feel about it. Teens should be able to be teens (in regards to sex. The age of driving does need to be higher) and be able to do it safely, but with sex, two 17 year olds I see no reason to call foul. a 17 and 19 year old would technically be illegal, but they could have been together in high school. 16 and 18? That's another one it's probably not nefarious or devious though technically criminal in many places.16 and 41? Well, what is exactly going on with this one because it may be legit, but there is definitely some potential for abuse and power discrepancies.
     
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