The concept of "life energy"

[vijeno]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

 

[exchemist]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

Yes, excellent points. As far as the scientific concept of energy is concerned, it is merely a property of a physical system. It's a nonsense to say "everything is energy", since it demands the question "energy of what?" You can't have a jug of energy, any more than you can have a jug of momentum or velocity.

Whatever people mean when they talk of "energy" in a vitalist or spiritual sense, it has nothing to do with energy in the scientific sense. It is therefore wrong to borrow concepts from science when talking about it. Though that does not stop certain charlatans from doing so.

Energy of course does have a perfectly good non-scientific meaning. We can speak of people, or even music, possessing energy, for example. So long as the two meanings are not mixed up, everything is fine.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

Whereas the misapplication of science and its concepts to domains outside the empirical and measurable may be called "scientism," I view the misapplication of literary and poetic language to scientific domains and concepts as what I like to semi-facetiously call "poetism" or "artism." It is an attempt to imbue clearly non-scientific concepts with a veneer of scientific jargon.

From what I have seen, Deepak Chopra strikes me as a prime example of this form of pseudo-intellectualism.

As @exchemist said, though, if the more figurative, everyday uses of the word "energy" are kept separate from the strictly scientific term, I think there's no problem.

 

[Audie]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

Failed theory, pseudoscience, superstition.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

"Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that?

I agree with you, including the idea that such usage diminishes the meaning of words like god and love. It's also done with religion and faith, as when someone calls science the empiricist's religion and that scientific beliefs are believed by faith. What does the word god mean if people use it to describe the unknown or the laws of nature?

I also agree that this woo underlies much pseudoscience. Regarding spirits, many people seem to need magic in their lives, while many others don't. The concept of a life force which must be infused into organic matter to bring it to life is at least as old as the concept of a soul or spirit. Life as an epiphenomenon of chemistry is a more modern notion, but many prefer the magical interpretation and scoff (materialist, scientism) at people who don't.

 

[exchemist]

Whereas the misapplication of science and its concepts to domains outside the empirical and measurable may be called "scientism," I view the misapplication of literary and poetic language to scientific domains and concepts as what I like to semi-facetiously call "poetism" or "artism." It is an attempt to imbue clearly non-scientific concepts with a veneer of scientific jargon.

From what I have seen, Deepak Chopra strikes me as a prime example of this form of pseudo-intellectualism.

As @exchemist said, though, if the more figurative, everyday uses of the word "energy" are kept separate from the strictly scientific term, I think there's no problem.

Yes I had Chopra very much in mind when I wrote of "charlatans" my reply, as well.

 

[Heyo]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

The concept of everything being energy is somewhat outdated, the current mantra is that everything is fields and energy and matter can be described as excitations in the fields. Which bares the same philosophical conundrum.
As for qi, it is an illusion although a useful one. Practitioners of Qi Gong and Tai Chi, who understand the concept, are better able to focus their "energy" then those who deny the concept.

 

[Quintessence]

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

You don't find greater specificity in describing the nature of everything to be useful?

The term "everything" is vague. It doesn't tell you about the nature of what it is pointing to. Furthermore, there are very significant differences amongst human peoples on what precisely "everything" consists of. Ontology and metaphysics and all that. Further clarification on what a human feels "everything" means is not only important, it is necessary to understanding their ontological worldview or perspective.

 

[Sargonski]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

Yes, excellent points. As far as the scientific concept of energy is concerned, it is merely a property of a physical system. It's a nonsense to say "everything is energy", since it demands the question "energy of what?" You can't have a jug of energy, any more than you can have a jug of momentum or velocity.

Whatever people mean when they talk of "energy" in a vitalist or spiritual sense, it has nothing to do with energy in the scientific sense. It is therefore wrong to borrow concepts from science when talking about it. Though that does not stop certain charlatans from doing so.

Energy of course does have a perfectly good non-scientific meaning. We can speak of people, or even music, possessing energy, for example. So long as the two meanings are not mixed up, everything is fine.

good topic .. very interesting comments .. I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered .. This form of energy we observe in natural systems --- it is kind of like anti energy -- or rather something outside of the physical acting on the system .. so for example orgon energy goes against the law of Entropy .. so unlike a fart in a room going from more concentrated to less concentrated .. and spreading out so to speak .. Orgon energy does the opposite .. moving from less concentrated to more concentrated.

Wilhelm figured he could store this energy in what he called energy accumulators -- and release it to cure disease .. an idea for which he was Jailed in the US , his research taken by the CIA, where he dies in 1957. Keep in mind this fellow is now regarded as one of the founding fathers of Psychology -- using his theory of Orgon energy he developed ideas such as body armoring .. by looking at someone's posture you can tell certain things about them .. whether or not they are having a good day .. this posturing is related to this orgon energy flowing through the various chakra points .. think of it as the energy you put out into the universe. Whether you realize it or not you percieve this about the people you interact with .. either consciously or subconsiosly. He worked with women helping them have better orgasms .. which probably had something to do with his arrest on some level.. Notice if there are 5 restaurants on a Strip (real life story) .. was a beachfront actually .. one is busy .. the other 4 noticably less busy .. all the more people will flock to the busy restaurant .. stand in line .. while they could just walk into the other 4.. an interesting example we have all seen of Orgon Energy .. moving from less concentrated to more consentrated.

"Everything is Energy" -- including the actions of the people going to the restaruant .. or percieving Orgon energy state of others as we interact .. in a sense this is true .. but poor way to put it .. as we can view each as a different kind of energy. Anything that acts on another in any way we have to claim is energy .. by hook or by crook .. The term "Physical Energy" tries to distinguish between forms .. but is not satisfactory in some respects... for what do we mean by "Physical" .. generally this means "Matter" .. and while energy is also "Matter" in a way it is different than molecular matter.. which we tend to classify as matter and energy .. separating the two .. in spite of the fact that at the sub-atomic level .. one can change into the other .. back and forth.

Now somehow in this random soup of molecules and energy - an ordered structure evolved .. again moving against the forces of chaos .. against Entropy -- but there it was .. not only did this ordered structure arise .. it maintained .. and stayed .. not dissapating as it should. this blob .. albeit an organized blob .. or blobs .. as there could well have been many arising from similar condition at the same time .. managed self replication .. which begins evolution. This blob gets more and more organized .. until one day .. a different form of energy becomes present .. somehow the blob is producing this energy .. and it arrives like the turning on of the xmas tree .. once all the wiring is complete around 22 months .. we can measure the soul's arrival in its fleshy dwelling on an EEG .. Nothing (sans the electrical activity of the cell - which doesn't count and is a different form of energy) .. to "The Lights are on and someone is home" .. what I like to call the "I AM" moment . this is when the blob becomes aware of its own existence.

Prior to 22 weeks -- the fleshy abode has no ability to capacite "The Soul" for lack of a better term .. but a soul it is .. as the Philosophers say "I Drink Therefor I am"

This driving force -- driving the blob up the steps to the "I Am" Moment .. is Orgon Energy .. a worker bee in the vacation machine. You see when you get to heaven .. meet back with all your friends from previous vacations - chill out for some time .. watch one of the millions of channels .. millions of other worlds - reality TV Channels .. you can choose to to on another vacation - you go to the vacation spot where then will tell you lie down and give you the blue pill .. telling you rule about vacations - that you will go to sleep .. and when you wake up you will be on vacation .. but won't remember your past life.

The arrival in your new fleshy abode is contingent upon that abode being able to capacitate your arrival .. the "I AM" moment .. the arrival of the soul.

 

[exchemist]

good topic .. very interesting comments .. I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered .. This form of energy we observe in natural systems --- it is kind of like anti energy -- or rather something outside of the physical acting on the system .. so for example orgon energy goes against the law of Entropy .. so unlike a fart in a room going from more concentrated to less concentrated .. and spreading out so to speak .. Orgon energy does the opposite .. moving from less concentrated to more concentrated.

Wilhelm figured he could store this energy in what he called energy accumulators -- and release it to cure disease .. an idea for which he was Jailed in the US , his research taken by the CIA, where he dies in 1957. Keep in mind this fellow is now regarded as one of the founding fathers of Psychology -- using his theory of Orgon energy he developed ideas such as body armoring .. by looking at someone's posture you can tell certain things about them .. whether or not they are having a good day .. this posturing is related to this orgon energy flowing through the various chakra points .. think of it as the energy you put out into the universe. Whether you realize it or not you percieve this about the people you interact with .. either consciously or subconsiosly. He worked with women helping them have better orgasms .. which probably had something to do with his arrest on some level.. Notice if there are 5 restaurants on a Strip (real life story) .. was a beachfront actually .. one is busy .. the other 4 noticably less busy .. all the more people will flock to the busy restaurant .. stand in line .. while they could just walk into the other 4.. an interesting example we have all seen of Orgon Energy .. moving from less concentrated to more consentrated.

"Everything is Energy" -- including the actions of the people going to the restaruant .. or percieving Orgon energy state of others as we interact .. in a sense this is true .. but poor way to put it .. as we can view each as a different kind of energy. Anything that acts on another in any way we have to claim is energy .. by hook or by crook .. The term "Physical Energy" tries to distinguish between forms .. but is not satisfactory in some respects... for what do we mean by "Physical" .. generally this means "Matter" .. and while energy is also "Matter" in a way it is different than molecular matter.. which we tend to classify as matter and energy .. separating the two .. in spite of the fact that at the sub-atomic level .. one can change into the other .. back and forth.

Now somehow in this random soup of molecules and energy - an ordered structure evolved .. again moving against the forces of chaos .. against Entropy -- but there it was .. not only did this ordered structure arise .. it maintained .. and stayed .. not dissapating as it should. this blob .. albeit an organized blob .. or blobs .. as there could well have been many arising from similar condition at the same time .. managed self replication .. which begins evolution. This blob gets more and more organized .. until one day .. a different form of energy becomes present .. somehow the blob is producing this energy .. and it arrives like the turning on of the xmas tree .. once all the wiring is complete around 22 months .. we can measure the soul's arrival in its fleshy dwelling on an EEG .. Nothing (sans the electrical activity of the cell - which doesn't count and is a different form of energy) .. to "The Lights are on and someone is home" .. what I like to call the "I AM" moment . this is when the blob becomes aware of its own existence.

Prior to 22 weeks -- the fleshy abode has no ability to capacite "The Soul" for lack of a better term .. but a soul it is .. as the Philosophers say "I Drink Therefor I am"

This driving force -- driving the blob up the steps to the "I Am" Moment .. is Orgon Energy .. a worker bee in the vacation machine. You see when you get to heaven .. meet back with all your friends from previous vacations - chill out for some time .. watch one of the millions of channels .. millions of other worlds - reality TV Channels .. you can choose to to on another vacation - you go to the vacation spot where then will tell you lie down and give you the blue pill .. telling you rule about vacations - that you will go to sleep .. and when you wake up you will be on vacation .. but won't remember your past life.

The arrival in your new fleshy abode is contingent upon that abode being able to capacitate your arrival .. the "I AM" moment .. the arrival of the soul.

Nothing moves against entropy. Many ordered systems appear spontaneously in nature, but overall entropy always increases In such processes.

And you seem to be falling into exactly the fallacy I described: that of mixing the scientific meaning of energy with other, non-scientific uses of it. If you do that, you get into a swamp of nonsense fairly rapidly.

 

[exchemist]

The concept of everything being energy is somewhat outdated, the current mantra is that everything is fields and energy and matter can be described as excitations in the fields. Which bares the same philosophical conundrum.
As for qi, it is an illusion although a useful one. Practitioners of Qi Gong and Tai Chi, who understand the concept, are better able to focus their "energy" then those who deny the concept.

Yes I think one would say excitations of fields have energy, as one of their properties. So one can’t quite say energy “is” an excitation of a field.

 

[Sargonski]

Nothing moves against entropy. Many ordered systems appear spontaneously in nature, but overall entropy always increases In such processes.

And you seem to be falling into exactly the fallacy I described: that of mixing the scientific meaning of energy with other, non-scientific uses of it. If you do that, you get into a swamp of nonsense fairly rapidly.

It moves against entropy .. .. the fact that overall entropy of the system increases dosen't change this fact - nor have you shown that overall entropy increases in this process to begin with.

2) there was no mixing of the Scientific with non scientific meaning of energy .. I defined my terms quite rigorously for an online chat room .. if you have an alternate definition .. then do share

 

[exchemist]

It moves against entropy .. .. the fact that overall entropy of the system increases dosen't change this fact - nor have you shown that overall entropy increases in this process to begin with.

2) there was no mixing of the Scientific with non scientific meaning of energy .. I defined my terms quite rigorously for an online chat room .. if you have an alternate definition .. then do share

If you can clarify for me what process you are talking about, I should be able to explain how it is that overall entropy increases.

Orgone[sic] energy was a pseudoscientific idea dreamt up by Wilhelm Reich, which as you say, ended with him being imprisoned for fraud: Orgone - Wikipedia

This is a classic example of something non-scientific being presented as science. The notion of it being scientifically real and being some sort of anti-entropic principle is entirely bogus.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

there was no mixing of the Scientific with non scientific meaning of energy

Sure there was. You referred to an energy - Orgone energy - that moves matter, as when people congregate in what appears to be a popular restaurant. As you alluded with a reference to his accumulators, Orgone himself considered it a physical substance that could be captured, stored, and released for a therapeutic benefit.

Did you know that you can still buy these? They're not cheap:

 

[Sargonski]

Sure there was. You referred to an energy - Orgone energy - that moves matter, as when people congregate in what appears to be a popular restaurant. As you alluded with a reference to his accumulators, Orgone himself considered it a physical substance that could be captured, stored, and released for a therapeutic benefit.

Did you know that you can still buy these? They're not cheap:

View attachment 85119

I included Willi's ideas into the conversation .. I did not say that orgone energy moves matter .. or give it any physical definition other than the witness of its apparent effects .. these observational effects are not psudo science .. There is an effect .. we are not sure of the cause --- something like Orgone energy may be the cause --- where is the Pseudo Science .. I am not claiming his accumulators actually worked .. or any of the hocus pocus .. and sexual chakra stuff .. none of which is why Reich ranks as a founding father ... his big contribution to the field was body armoring ideas .. that your perception pics up on these energy outputs of others is "The Effect" .. these effects can be classified scientifically.. this is the cause and effect on perception .. there is no movement of physical matter.

Further .. my elemental analysis was pure science .. measurement of the soul .. every part of the explanation .. While our friend may be an Ex Chemist .. I am still a working Chemist .. and rest assured know the difference.. and lay waste to his entropy argument..

suggest you both go back for another read.

If you can clarify for me what process you are talking about, I should be able to explain how it is that overall entropy increases.

Orgone[sic] energy was a pseudoscientific idea dreamt up by Wilhelm Reich, which as you say, ended with him being imprisoned for fraud: Orgone - Wikipedia

This is a classic example of something non-scientific being presented as science. The notion of it being scientifically real and being some sort of anti-entropic principle is entirely bogus.

In chaotic systems .. we observe the formation of complex ordered structures that should not be there ... go against entropy .. which is the measurment of disorder or randomness. It is just an observation that such things exist .. things we can not explain .. as if an unseen force is at work.. like the unknown forces we are finding .. "Dark Matter - Energy" .. a force for which we have observable effects .. but can not yet explain.

You both completely missed the "I AM" moment .. matter and energy assuming some configuration that becomes self aware .. the creation of this new energy via this configuration of matter and energy .. known as brain waves .. which we can measure. The driving force that generates to this moment .. unseen.

No driving force you say ? --- Great . then I say OK .. and lets get down to calculations .. Let (X) = the probility .. of matter and energy getting together in the exact configuration of YOU .. opening its eyes .. and becoming aware of its own existence.

We know that (X) is a finite number .. a finite probability because YOU exist .. as do other lottery winners.

Assumption: "Time is infinite". In an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities reoccur an infinite number of times .. there-for existence is eternal .. and you will be "Born Again" - there is a ghost built into the machine .. perhaps more than one ..

 

[exchemist]

I included Willi's ideas into the conversation .. I did not say that orgone energy moves matter .. or give it any physical definition other than the witness of its apparent effects .. these observational effects are not psudo science .. There is an effect .. we are not sure of the cause --- something like Orgone energy may be the cause --- where is the Pseudo Science .. I am not claiming his accumulators actually worked .. or any of the hocus pocus .. and sexual chakra stuff .. none of which is why Reich ranks as a founding father ... his big contribution to the field was body armoring ideas .. that your perception pics up on these energy outputs of others is "The Effect" .. these effects can be classified scientifically.. this is the cause and effect on perception .. there is no movement of physical matter.

Further .. my elemental analysis was pure science .. measurement of the soul .. every part of the explanation .. While our friend may be an Ex Chemist .. I am still a working Chemist .. and rest assured know the difference.. and lay waste to his entropy argument..

suggest you both go back for another read.


In chaotic systems .. we observe the formation of complex ordered structures that should not be there ... go against entropy .. which is the measurment of disorder or randomness. It is just an observation that such things exist .. things we can not explain .. as if an unseen force is at work.. like the unknown forces we are finding .. "Dark Matter - Energy" .. a force for which we have observable effects .. but can not yet explain.

You both completely missed the "I AM" moment .. matter and energy assuming some configuration that becomes self aware .. the creation of this new energy via this configuration of matter and energy .. known as brain waves .. which we can measure. The driving force that generates to this moment .. unseen.

No driving force you say ? --- Great . then I say OK .. and lets get down to calculations .. Let (X) = the probility .. of matter and energy getting together in the exact configuration of YOU .. opening its eyes .. and becoming aware of its own existence.

We know that (X) is a finite number .. a finite probability because YOU exist .. as do other lottery winners.

Assumption: "Time is infinite". In an infinite amount of time .. all finite probabilities reoccur an infinite number of times .. there-for existence is eternal .. and you will be "Born Again" - there is a ghost built into the machine .. perhaps more than one ..

As I said before, if you give me one concrete example of a natural process you think goes against entropy, I will explain how overall entropy nevertheless increases.

 

[vijeno]

You don't find greater specificity in describing the nature of everything to be useful?

It's not a question of whether it would be useful. Sure it would be very nice to know what everything is. But I think it cannot be done.

The term "everything" is vague. It doesn't tell you about the nature of what it is pointing to

Lol, I think "vague" is the mother of all understatements. "Everything" is empty of content. It is only topped, in that regard, by "nothing", which not only is empty of content, but cannot even be thought of, apart from the pure abstract label.

Further clarification on what a human feels "everything" means is not only important, it is necessary to understanding their ontological worldview or perspective.

I think you'll find that if you talk with them further, you're leaving the realm of philosophical precision. It's always more like "everything is more or less...", not exactly "everything is...". It's moreso expressing a feeling rather than an exact philosophical stance. Eg., my personal stance, which is basically materialism. Okay, "everything is matter". (Setting aside that it's probably "matter plus organisation", let's make things a bit simpler.) If everything is matter, then "matter" loses its meaning, because it only has meaning in contrast with energy. A better way to phrase it is probably, "I don't think that Spirit exists", or "I don't believe that god exists". The only reason to phrase it the other way, is because there's an endless list of things I don't believe in. It's a shortcut. But no, matter is not everything. Matter is matter. Even if only in contrast to a nonexistant spirit, there is still an "other" to matter, conceptually. It would be more way more precise to say that "I haven't found anything apart from matter, so far" - again, a shortcut is well placed.

(And please let's not let this devolve into a debate about materialism - it's just an example.)

By the way, I don't dare claim that I know whether this is a feature of the universe, or just a quirk of human thinking. After all, I'm only human, or so they say haha. It seems we cannot conceptualize things except by contrast. We always need an opposite idea. And of course, that's not my own idea - look at structuralism, de Saussure, etc., not to mention the old buddhist and hindu traditions (which posit a nondualist reality behind it all of course, but it is essentially and pointedly unspeakable).

 

[vijeno]

The concept of everything being energy is somewhat outdated, the current mantra is that everything is fields and energy and matter can be described as excitations in the fields. Which bares the same philosophical conundrum.

Hm, interesting. Can you tell me places where they changed the language?

I find that the esoteric/"spiritual" lingo tends to copy the sciencific understanding of its time. It used to be electricity in the 19th century, and for a while it was all "quantum".

As for qi, it is an illusion although a useful one. Practitioners of Qi Gong and Tai Chi, who understand the concept, are better able to focus their "energy" then those who deny the concept.

Oh yes. I am, maybe ironically, an avid chakra user, I love tantra and have a deep love for kabbalah and tarot. I find chakras help my focus a lot. I also think that it would probably work the same if I exchanged orange for silver, or something. Having some framework, which integrates as much "embodyment" as possible, is quite useful.
And if there is a good deal of tradition behind it, then the intuitions of a lot of people went into it, so it will likely jibe with yours or mine. (E.g. yellow = solar plexus = self-esteem)

 

[Heyo]

Hm, interesting. Can you tell me places where they changed the language?

I think I heard it from Prof O'Dowd but I don't remember in which episode of https://www.youtube.com/@pbsspacetime.

A quick search on DuckDuckGo brought this:

"Wheeler divided his own life into three parts. The first part he called “Everything is Particles.” The second part was “Everything is Fields.” - from John Wheeler’s Participatory Universe

But even that is outdated, at least for Wheeler as he moved on to:
"And the third part, which Wheeler considered the bedrock of his physical theory, he called “Everything is Information.”"

 

[ratiocinator]

The concept of everything being energy is somewhat outdated...

I'm not sure it ever made sense in strictly scientific terms. As far as I can see it was always a misunderstanding, maybe driven by people not understanding E = mc². Energy has always been a property of something else (as has mass, which what the 'm' stands for). The way pop-science tends to simplify doesn't help sometimes, either.

...the current mantra is that everything is fields and energy and matter can be described as excitations in the fields.

As @exchemist said in #11, energy is a property of the excitations (the particles associated with the fields).