The concept of "life energy"

[vijeno]

I'm not sure it ever made sense in strictly scientific terms.

I'm sure it never did. It was a metaphor that took on a life of its own.

And I can get behind that. It really does feel like energy. E.g. "Everything is information" is a lot more abstract, much less appealing.

Btw, I think the Kybalion introduced "vibration" as a key element in 1908. Another very interesting term to investigate! I choose to vibrate only at the highest frequencies, of course, while all you normies, muggles and nonheretics vibrate barely an inch above gravitational waves. (It's one of the more confusing mis-applications... why would "higher frequencies" be better? I don't have a particular fondness for gamma rays, for instance.)

 

[vijeno]

maybe driven by people not understanding E = mc²

They saw the "=" and turned it from "equals" into "is the same as". A bit like confusing == with ===, in JavaScript, hehe. It doesn't help that atoms can indeed be "turned into energy", in a rather dramatic way nonetheless - biiiig badaboom. For which I am sure there's a more precise way to phrase it, but I'm not a physicist so I don't know it.

 

[ratiocinator]

They saw the "=" and turned it from "equals" into "is the same as". A bit like confusing == with ===, in JavaScript, hehe. It doesn't help that atoms can indeed be "turned into energy", in a rather dramatic way nonetheless - biiiig badaboom. For which I am sure there's a more precise way to phrase it, but I'm not a physicist so I don't know it.

The problem is more that it's a relationship between two things that are both properties that can't exist by themselves, namely energy (E) and mass (m). In a nuclear reaction (glossing over some details), you start with one set of particles and end up with another which may not have the same total mass because some of them have far more energy. At no time does either mass or energy exist except as a property of something else.

Too many people read the 'm' as 'matter', which generally is something that can exist by itself but actually doesn't have an exact scientific definition.

Matter and Energy: A False Dichotomy

Matt Strassler [April 12, 2012] It is common that, when reading about the universe or about particle physics, one will come across a phrase that somehow refers to “matter and energy”, a…

profmattstrassler.com

 

[crossfire]

Back to basics: in physics, energy is the capacity to perform work. I would think life/living qualifies as work.

 

[exchemist]

Back to basics: in physics, energy is the capacity to perform work. I would think life/living qualifies as work.

Living things convert energy certainly, from chemical potential energy to other forms, some of which can involve mechanical work. But ultimately it all ends as low temperature heat, with a concomitant increase of entropy.

 

[crossfire]

Living things convert energy certainly, from chemical potential energy to other forms, some of which can involve mechanical work. But ultimately it all ends as low temperature heat, with a concomitant increase of entropy.

Life/living is the work performed by the various energy conversions.

 

[exchemist]

Life/living is the work performed by the various energy conversions.

Not in scientific terms, it isn't. "Living" and "life" are not specific mechanical processes.

 

[crossfire]

Not in scientific terms, it isn't. "Living" and "life" are not specific mechanical processes.

The respiration, the digestion, and all other processes associated with life are not mechanical working processes?

 

[vijeno]

Too many people read the 'm' as 'matter', which generally is something that can exist by itself but actually doesn't have an exact scientific definition.

True, thanks for pointing it out. see, that's why these debates are fun and informative!

I would think life/living qualifies as work.

That is, at least, debatable, though I think @exchemist is right. I get anaphylactic shock and the gout when people start going, "hmm... so it's all energy, so what I feel when I breathe is energy too, so I can then direct this energy to where I want it, because qi follows focus, and achieve some kind of healing that way". It's a jump over a number of syllogisms to reach an arbitrary conclusion. It certainly FEELS that way, and I absolutely think that it has a psychological function, which - by way of placebo and ideomotor movements - can help you feel a lot better - which is a very good thing - but that's not the same as "energetic breathing exercises can cure cancer" or whatever bs there is.

 

[exchemist]

The respiration, the digestion, and all other processes associated with life are not mechanical working processes?

No. In science, mechanical work is applying a force through a distance: W = F x d. Examples are things like lifting weights, or accelerating a car, or pushing the pedals of a bicycle against the resistance of the air and the friction in the wheels.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I did not say that orgone energy moves matter

You said it counters entropy: "I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered .. This form of energy we observe in natural systems --- it is kind of like anti energy -- or rather something outside of the physical acting on the system .. so for example orgon energy goes against the law of Entropy"

There is an effect .. we are not sure of the cause --- something like Orgone energy may be the cause --- where is the Pseudo Science

The pseudoscience is in attributing that effect to something not known to exist when such apparent anti-entropic effects are already explainable using the four known forces. Nebulae evolve into solar systems under the influence of gravity, and drops of water freeze into symmetrical snowflakes under the influence of electromagnetism. Orgone energy isn't involved. Illnesses spontaneously remit, but there is no need to invoke magic or unseen forces or fictional energies like life energy, as if life weren't just chemistry.

I am not claiming his accumulators actually worked .. or any of the hocus pocus

You recommended considering Reich's ideas: "I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered" Now, you seem to be walking that back.

my elemental analysis was pure science .. measurement of the soul

What elemental analysis? What science? What soul?

While our friend may be an Ex Chemist .. I am still a working Chemist .. and rest assured know the difference.. and lay waste to his entropy argument..

You think you've laid waste to his entropy argument? I don't see where you addressed it at all except your request that he prove that the entropy in a closed system in which some element became more ordered increased.

 

[crossfire]

True, thanks for pointing it out. see, that's why these debates are fun and informative!



That is, at least, debatable, though I think @exchemist is right. I get anaphylactic shock and the gout when people start going, "hmm... so it's all energy, so what I feel when I breathe is energy too, so I can then direct this energy to where I want it, because qi follows focus, and achieve some kind of healing that way". It's a jump over a number of syllogisms to reach an arbitrary conclusion. It certainly FEELS that way, and I absolutely think that it has a psychological function, which - by way of placebo and ideomotor movements - can help you feel a lot better - which is a very good thing - but that's not the same as "energetic breathing exercises can cure cancer" or whatever bs there is.

I was referring to life as thework part.

 

[Sargonski]

As I said before, if you give me one concrete example of a natural process you think goes against entropy, I will explain how overall entropy nevertheless increases.

"overall entropy" is not what is being discussed - restating conservation of energy/mass .. at such a question lacks "overall" understanding of the subject matter ... Or, bad intent .. knowingly making a false argument .... or perhaps have yet to come across the Existential Trap .. at such discussions or , have come across and regularly utilize the ET .. in such discussions

"Overall Entropy" -- the old every action there is a reaction trick .. the part you are missing .. that there is an action .. and a reaction.. that in a closed system (do note the extremely precise technical treatment of the subject matter .... Doing Quantum Chem in 4th year didn't hurt) violates entropy .. by going from less concentrated to more concentrated ... random .. to order .. causing an energy differentil.

While we observe such anomalies in nature .. I am not saying that Orgon energy is necessarily one of these .. just talking about different examples of the apparent violation ... Einstein was impressed by Reich's hypothesis .. the energy accumulators however he attributed likely to convection currents .. although if the excess warmth was from Orgon .. said it would have indeed violated fundamental principles of thermodynamics.

That .. is now however what I am talking about .. and am not talking about the physical or measurable via physical measurement. For example - we can't measure gravity physically .. but .. we can measure it. This force .. the action causing a reaction .. is the energy being emitted by another individual .. interacting with your brain - that you recognize as "body Armoring" - then can know things about the current state of the other person .. in terms of the energy imbalance .. see that this imbalance has mainfested itself into physical creality . that their mental state .. has manifested itself into physical reality .. the non physical moving across the barrier into the physical

Which brings us to the first thought - The fact that you had an "I AM" moment is one thing .. realized you existed .. and from this we can know that on some level all living things have some awareness of their existence .. on some level .. but the first brain .. first construct of matter which managed to generate the first primative brain wave .. and sustain this state .. or at least start to repeat it from time to time towards a sustained state.

Wonderful the matter/energy has become self aware .. but, how do you go from there .. to manifesting that thought into physical reality ? - how does your pinky move when you will it ? .. you create a thought .. which sets about a series of events .. but how do you create the right thought .. where does that knowledge come from .. assuming you have never had such a thought before .. that you are just a piece of primordial ooze .. that happened to generate some bioenergy.

Like the problem we have in Quantum when an event ends up .. somehow .. on the other side of the probability barrier .. and this happens normally in nature.. and we have no explanation for why .. least not yet .. there is some unknown force acting in some way .. The "I AM" manifesting itself into physical reality is a problem not yet solved .. sans by GOD of course for if you can solve that puzzle how to manifest the will into physical reality .. indeed you would be.

How did the will = thoughts from the blob, manage to mainfest themselves into physical reality ? .. You have this capability internally .. insided your blobulous structure .. have the ability to manifest a thought into physical reality (moving your pinkie for example) within your blobulous structure .. through force of will, but not externally. So you are half way there .. but not yet achieved God Status. To reach that level you need to be able to mainifest your will External to your Body ... and although this to you have a limited ability .. not directly into physical reality .. like moving a chair by force of will .. as opposed to asking someone to move the chair.

 

[wellwisher]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

In Chemistry and Engineering there is what is called Free Energy. Free Energy is expressed by the equation; G-H-TS, where G is the Gibbs free energy, named after the Josiah Willard Gibbs, who developed the free energy equation in 1870. H is enthalpy, T is temperature in degrees Kelvin and S is entropy.


Enthalpy or H is the sum of a thermodynamic system's internal energy and the product of its pressure and volume. The calories in a liter of sugary soft drink at one atmosphere would be an example of enthalpy. Entropy is not free energy per se, since ST or entropy times temperature has the units of energy. T or temperature reflects the kinetic energy of the vibrating and colliding atoms making up a substance. Entropy is a state variable that defines the unique state of matter at given conditions of temperature and pressure. In that sense, entropy is similar to the thermodynamic information of the state of a system, which when combined with the kinetic energy of the atoms within that state; T, reflect a second aspect of free energy; quantum mechanical energy.

The entropy of water at 25C and 1 atmosphere is measured as 188.8 Joules/(mole K). Entropy by itself is not energy but when combined with the kinetic energy of individual atoms; temperature, it defines free energy. At absolute zero we get T=0K and there is no movement of free energy, but some state entropy will still exist. The negative sign connected to -TS reflect the second law where the entropy of the universe has to increase, thereby lowering system; universal, free energy.



Entropy is key to life. Since our body stays at constant temperature; 98.6F, and is composed of countless states of water, organics and ions, changes within entropy will reflect changes in local and global free energy, that we can feel and which can even alter our state of mind.

Neurons expend the lions share of their metabolic energy; 90%, pumping and exchanging ions. This sets the membrane potential for neutron firing, with neuron firing behind consciousness, thought and action.

The ion pumping and exchange, which requires so much neuron energy, lowers the entropy at the membrane by concentrating and segregating ions on the opposite sides of the membrane. Left to their own devices, these soluble ions in water like sodium and potassium want to blend, like salt dissolving in water. The neurons are reversing this natural path to disorder, to creates ionic order from chaos. This is lowering of the ionic entropy, increasing the stored free energy on the surface of the neurons; action potential; -T(-S)=+TS=+G

Since the second law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase, with the neurons deliberately going the wrong way, something has to give to satisfy the second law; neurons will have to fire, via brain waves and information transfer thereby blending the ions back to disorder. But the neuron is busy creating order again and again. The effect is like fountain of entropic potential, which by virtue of its connection to increasing complexity, makes the brain self evolving to higher states of complexity.



The branching structures of neuron axons and dendrites, needed for memory, form through changes in osmotic pressure. Osmotic pressure is one of the four colligative properties of matter. Colligative properties are the physical changes that result from adding solute to a solvent. Colligative Properties depend on how many solute particles are present as well as the solvent amount, but they do NOT depend on the type of solute particles, although they do depend on the type of solvent.

Colligative properties like osmosis are not EM force dependent since osmosis is not dependent on the charge or lack of charge of the solute, but only on the total number of solute units in water, in any combination. Neuron branching, that reflects learning and forming of memory is not exactly connected to the EM forces. This is more connected to entropy where the increase in entropy is generating a force; osmotic pressure; force/area. This action of entropy was intuitively called the life force.

All cells from bacteria to complex cells such as the differentiated cells of the human body use ion pumping to set the stage for the life force; colligative property of osmotic pressure. The life force is a not an EM based force but an entropic force.



In an osmotic device, two chambers of solvent are separated by a semi-permeable membrane that allows the flow of the solvent but not the solute particles. Since water is continuous, if one side of the device has a higher concentration of ions, the ions would like to flow and blend to form a unified solution; concentration gradient. But since they cannot due to the membrane, the water will do it for the ions and flow toward concentrated ions to dilute these down, so they can spread out. Entropy is a system state variable. It generates pressure against gravity, by doing so. In the case of the neurons branches, the entropic pressure pushes branches through the fluids of the brain at atmospheric pressure, with the goal of increasing the entropy of the brain; higher state.

The highest state of the brain appears to be the thalamus located in the center of the brain. It is the most wired part of the brain, being like a central switching station that receives and output to all areas of the brain and spine; inner self. The ego is more within the cerebral matter. The modern state of the inner self is sufficient to support two centers of consciousness to help increase entropy; consciousness within the complexity of civilization.

 

[Sargonski]

You said it counters entropy: "I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered .. This form of energy we observe in natural systems --- it is kind of like anti energy -- or rather something outside of the physical acting on the system .. so for example orgon energy goes against the law of Entropy"

The pseudoscience is in attributing that effect to something not known to exist when such apparent anti-entropic effects are already explainable using the four known forces. Nebulae evolve into solar systems under the influence of gravity, and drops of water freeze into symmetrical snowflakes under the influence of electromagnetism. Orgone energy isn't involved. Illnesses spontaneously remit, but there is no need to invoke magic or unseen forces or fictional energies like life energy, as if life weren't just chemistry.

You recommended considering Reich's ideas: "I would add Wilhelm Reich's concept of Orgon Energy to the list of ideas considered" Now, you seem to be walking that back.

What elemental analysis? What science? What soul?

You think you've laid waste to his entropy argument? I don't see where you addressed it at all except your request that he prove that the entropy in a closed system in which some element became more ordered increased.

Yes .. the effect of Orgon energy is to go against entropy .. we observe anti entropy events .. the events themselves may .. or may not be Physical ... but the energy acting on the the system .. causing it to go the direction it is going .. is not engaging directly with the matter .

Pseudoscience is no such thing ..your explanation makes no sense . .nor do you point out an example of any pseudoscience .. there are observable effects that go against entropy .. pointing out these effects is not pseudo Science .. speculating on what cause effected these effects is what real Science is all about .. formulating a hypothesis and testing that hypothesis. ..

and no.. false .. wrong .. these anti entropic effects have not been explained using the 4 known forces .. See my post to the exchem for laying waste to entropy argument and other information.

 

[Bthoth]

I would like to talk about the vitalist notion of energy in a very broad sense - qi, prana, "animal magnetism" and so on.

First off - how would you try and "define" it? I know, it's terribly hard to come up with reasonable definitions for such broad terms in the realm of spirituality and esotericism, but let's try.

Second, to me it is obvious that this "energy" cannot be the same as physical energy in the scientific sense, and that a lot of the claims made with reference to science in that regard are simply wrong. The "energy flow" I feel when I take a deep breath is clearly not the same thing as "the quantitative property that is transferred to a body or to a physical system, recognizable in the performance of work and in the form of heat and light." I don't literally heat up with each breath, and the wave I feel is certainly not my cells using up oxygen to burn fat. There are a lot of psychological and physiological processes between the physical act an the way it makes me feel.

Third, you will often hear claims such as "everything is energy". I see a philosophical problem with that: "Everything" cannot be "one particular thing", because concepts make sense only in comparison to other concepts. (Strictly speaking, I think it is impossible to conceptualize "everything", but that's another topic which I think leads too far away from the energy issue.) You cannot have light without dark, and you cannot have energy without matter. You can say that matter is just a form of energy, but then I would challenge you to define energy such that it does not presuppose matter - which I think is impossible.

Or to put it another way: "Everything" is necessarily void of any attribute, apart from being, well, everything. If "everything is energy", then the word energy loses its meaning. It's just "everything". The same goes for "everything is spirit", "everything is god", "everything is love", etc. So what's your comment on that? Specifically, what is your counter-argument, if you disagree?

I a sense, you are hitting the nail on the head; defining energy!

That ultimate definition is what combines the religions, sciences and philosophies of mankind.

The christos is what that scope is about. In egypt, that symbol was the anhk, the chi rho of greek, the christos to word and the 'name of god' that torah renders over the over. The concept/description of the tao, the way, the process.

Defining that 'energy' that is correct is the capstone of mankind (conscious life) for comprehending how it all works.

 

[wellwisher]

Yes .. the effect of Orgon energy is to go against entropy .. we observe anti entropy events .. the events themselves may .. or may not be Physical ... but the energy acting on the the system .. causing it to go the direction it is going .. is not engaging directly with the matter .

Pseudoscience is no such thing ..your explanation makes no sense . .nor do you point out an example of any pseudoscience .. there are observable effects that go against entropy .. pointing out these effects is not pseudo Science .. speculating on what cause effected these effects is what real Science is all about .. formulating a hypothesis and testing that hypothesis. ..

and no.. false .. wrong .. these anti entropic effects have not been explained using the 4 known forces .. See my post to the exchem for laying waste to entropy argument and other information.

When liquid water freezes into ice the entropy decreases. It is possible to go against the second law but its takes work altering the state. As long as it stays cold the entropy decrease defines by the solid state of water can be maintained. The entropic potential will become partially expressed as sublimation; solid to gas.

When plants fix CO2 and water via photosynthesis, the entropy of the CO2 and Water vapor both decrease. This takes solar energy. It will not happen by itself since the second law would prefers they stays as gases. When we burn the sugars to form CO2 and Water there is an increase in entropy. But if the sugars are converted to body fat, with even less entropy, it can be hard to reverse.

Orgon energy is actually about storing entropy in stable states of chemical enthalpy; internal energy, that includes states of low chemical entropy relative to available pathways for the 2nd law.

The cationic pumping at the membrane of neurons and most cells, makes use of semipermeable membranes and the colligative property of osmosis. In chemistry, colligative properties are those properties of solutions that depend on the ratio of the number of solute particles to the number of solvent particles in a solution, and not on the nature of the chemical species present. The nature or character of the chemical species is connected to their EM properties like charge or polarity. This does not matter in osmosis, with all that EM differences treated like everything is the same. This is connected to entropy; number of units, and not enthalpy; EM charge.

In the two beakers below, the beaker on the left has a higher concentration of solute on the right. Since the membrane will not allow the solute to increase entropy and mix over the entire beaker, the water does the job for the solute, since it can flow through the membrane making the water continuous.

The beaker on the right, is at steady state with a pressure head that reflects the lingering entropic potential; entropic force to the right and upward, that is balanced by the pressure; force downward. At the membrane interface the water is in equilibrium; calm. The idea of Orgon energy ; enthalpy, would be sort of a situation where osmotic pressure forms via an equilibrium blockage in the entropic potential; feel the pressure head as pain.

 

[Sargonski]

When liquid water freezes into ice the entropy decreases. It is possible to go against the second law but its takes work altering the state. As long as it stays cold the entropy decrease defines by the solid state of water can be maintained. The entropic potential will become partially expressed as sublimation; solid to gas.

Thats nice nice but, why are you posting these googled entropy lessons to me .. learned that stuff in my Chemistry Degree .. "Physical Chemistry" -- a difficult class for sure .. weeds the mathamatician from the artist .. but what you know about this force that appears to violate the laws of Chaos and Order .. and what do you know about the ancient creation stories .. Genesis and Enuma Elish --- about the battle between chaos and order - the separation of the salt water from the sweet .. the land from the sea .. google us something regarding these events .. help us discover the concept of life energy .. and tell us why it violates the laws of Entropy .. and how such and ordered felow such as yourself .. could spring up out of such chaos . via the life force ..

 

[The Hammer]

I would think life/living qualifies as work.

You get paid?

 

[exchemist]

"overall entropy" is not what is being discussed - restating conservation of energy/mass .. at such a question lacks "overall" understanding of the subject matter ... Or, bad intent .. knowingly making a false argument .... or perhaps have yet to come across the Existential Trap .. at such discussions or , have come across and regularly utilize the ET .. in such discussions

"Overall Entropy" -- the old every action there is a reaction trick .. the part you are missing .. that there is an action .. and a reaction.. that in a closed system (do note the extremely precise technical treatment of the subject matter .... Doing Quantum Chem in 4th year didn't hurt) violates entropy .. by going from less concentrated to more concentrated ... random .. to order .. causing an energy differentil.

While we observe such anomalies in nature .. I am not saying that Orgon energy is necessarily one of these .. just talking about different examples of the apparent violation ... Einstein was impressed by Reich's hypothesis .. the energy accumulators however he attributed likely to convection currents .. although if the excess warmth was from Orgon .. said it would have indeed violated fundamental principles of thermodynamics.

That .. is now however what I am talking about .. and am not talking about the physical or measurable via physical measurement. For example - we can't measure gravity physically .. but .. we can measure it. This force .. the action causing a reaction .. is the energy being emitted by another individual .. interacting with your brain - that you recognize as "body Armoring" - then can know things about the current state of the other person .. in terms of the energy imbalance .. see that this imbalance has mainfested itself into physical creality . that their mental state .. has manifested itself into physical reality .. the non physical moving across the barrier into the physical

Which brings us to the first thought - The fact that you had an "I AM" moment is one thing .. realized you existed .. and from this we can know that on some level all living things have some awareness of their existence .. on some level .. but the first brain .. first construct of matter which managed to generate the first primative brain wave .. and sustain this state .. or at least start to repeat it from time to time towards a sustained state.

Wonderful the matter/energy has become self aware .. but, how do you go from there .. to manifesting that thought into physical reality ? - how does your pinky move when you will it ? .. you create a thought .. which sets about a series of events .. but how do you create the right thought .. where does that knowledge come from .. assuming you have never had such a thought before .. that you are just a piece of primordial ooze .. that happened to generate some bioenergy.

Like the problem we have in Quantum when an event ends up .. somehow .. on the other side of the probability barrier .. and this happens normally in nature.. and we have no explanation for why .. least not yet .. there is some unknown force acting in some way .. The "I AM" manifesting itself into physical reality is a problem not yet solved .. sans by GOD of course for if you can solve that puzzle how to manifest the will into physical reality .. indeed you would be.

How did the will = thoughts from the blob, manage to mainfest themselves into physical reality ? .. You have this capability internally .. insided your blobulous structure .. have the ability to manifest a thought into physical reality (moving your pinkie for example) within your blobulous structure .. through force of will, but not externally. So you are half way there .. but not yet achieved God Status. To reach that level you need to be able to mainifest your will External to your Body ... and although this to you have a limited ability .. not directly into physical reality .. like moving a chair by force of will .. as opposed to asking someone to move the chair.

I can make neither head nor tail of this, I'm afraid. But I note you are trying to evade my point that entropy always increases in a spontaneous process.

There is no need for any additional hypothesis, whether "orgone energy" or anything else, to account for processes going "against entropy", since that never occurs.