The compassionate Pope

[David1967]

NO, there are wrong doers in every faith you are 100% correct on that, Your clergy is who the problem is with, the point of Jesus words are clear, you can not be preaching love of God and neighbor out of one side of your mouth, and be promoting and encouraging bad out the other, by their fruits you will know them, what kind of fruitage has christendoms religion produced, helping people in other countries, and then in a heartbeat be ready to go kill them !

"My clergy"? Sorry, I'm not Catholic.

 

[David1967]

No...but is anything I said untrue?



[

It wouldn't be just about Catholics..... Jesus doesn't like fake Christians and he doesn't look at labels, he looks at hearts, words and actions.[/QUOTE]

So you know beyond doubt the heart of this man? I don't. I've never met him. Just pointing out his kind gesture. For that I give him a thumbs up.

 

[Smart_Guy]

@David1967
@Deeje

You two sound like a married couple discussing where to spend the vacation

 

[David1967]

@David1967
@Deeje

You two sound like a married couple discussing where to spend the vacation

SG! Stop it!

 

[Smart_Guy]

SG! Stop it!

Stop blushing

 

[David1967]

@David1967
@Deeje

You two sound like a married couple discussing where to spend the vacation

Well, I guess it wont be the Vatican.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well, I guess it wont be the Vatican.

But if the Pope gives you a free ride....

 

[David1967]

BTW, how many times have the JW's predicted the end of the world? We're still here.

I googled it.

• 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]

• 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[29]

• 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]

• 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]

• 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]

• 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]

• 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]

• 1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]

• 1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]

• 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]

• 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[38]

• 1961: Awake! magazine stated that the heavenly kingdom "will, within the twentieth century, cleanse the entire earth of wickedness."[39]

• 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that."[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.

• 1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]

• 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]

• 1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45]

• 1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "hortly, within our twentieth century".[46]

• 1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[47]

• 1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[48]

• 1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[49] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

 

[David1967]

But if the Pope gives you a free ride....

I'm afraid of airplanes.

 

[AnnaCzereda]

For those above who are on an anti-Catholic or anti-Pope tirade, please explain what your church, or other religious institution, has done, or at least what you have done to help the Syrian refugees?

And why should we help them at all? Europe has received enough of immigrants. What about other countries?

Many of those "refugees" are in fact economic immigrants and they aren't even from Syria. Most of them are young males who could fight with the Islamic State. Why should we help them at our own cost?

I can understand helping women and children fleeing from Syria. However, the multitude of those people are lone young guys without families. So they left their women and children in the war zone? Get those dudes back to Syria. They are young males and can fight for their own freedom.

With all the billions of dollars the Catholic church has, you would think he could have brought back a few thousand instead of a token.

^^^ This. a thousand times. It's nothing more than a propaganda, PR gesture, to make additional pressure on those EU countries who don't want to accept Merkel's plan of relocation of the refugees in all the EU countries.

 

[metis]

And why should we help them at all? Europe has received enough of immigrants. What about other countries?

Many of those "refugees" are in fact economic immigrants and they aren't even from Syria. Most of them are young males who could fight with the Islamic State. Why should we help them at our own cost?

I can understand helping women and children fleeing from Syria. However, the multitude of those people are lone young guys without families. So they left their women and children in the war zone? Get those dudes back to Syria. They are young males and can fight for their own freedom.



^^^ This. a thousand times. It's nothing more than a propaganda, PR gesture, to make additional pressure on those EU countries who don't want to accept Merkel's plan of relocation of the refugees in all the EU countries.

I guess you'll have to decide which is more important, money or people?

Secondly, most of those whom are being considered to come in are women with children.

Thirdly, Europe is doing the most of the heavy lifting on this, so I would suggest that us taking in 30,000 should be a relative piece of cake.

And finally, if we don't help out at least a bit, we're going to come off as a bunch of selfish cowards that are afraid of our own shadows.

 

[kerndog]

says

I googled it.

• 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]

• 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[29]

• 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]

• 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]

• 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]

• 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]

• 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]

• 1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]

• 1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]

• 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]

• 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[38]

• 1961: Awake! magazine stated that the heavenly kingdom "will, within the twentieth century, cleanse the entire earth of wickedness."[39]

• 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that."[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.

• 1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]

• 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]

• 1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45]

• 1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "hortly, within our twentieth century".[46]

• 
  
  
  • 1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[47]

• 
  
  
  • 1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[48]

• 
  
  
  • 1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[49] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

Yes, you are right , there have been some times in our overzealous dessire to see this fufilled, we had some wrong expectations, so did Jesus disciples, Acts 1:6,7...they were expecting Gods kingdom on earth at that time, to come about, it did not, so did they give up and say, its never going to happen ? You know the answer to that ! We go by Gods timetable. The year 1914 was thought to be the end, it was not, what we have come to know is,what it realy was, it was not the end, but, the Begining of the last days, and has fit Jesus prophecy in Matthew Chapters 24 & 25 like a glove, it was early in our study of the bible, and a few wrong expectations were made. In Daniel 12:4 , in a prophecy about the last days, the Angel told Daniel that DURING THE TIME OF THE END, when true knowledge would become abundant, and that none of the wicked would understand ...Dan12:9,10, ..., BUT , there would be ones with insight who WOULD understand, and that this prophecy would be kept a secret UNTILL THE LAST DAYS ! We look at it like gods word says at ...Proverbs 4:18...we have gradually had the light made brighter and brighter, so that we now undersand a lot more than we did early on ! YOU ARE USING A VERY OLD TACTIC that we run into all the time, the minute you get backed into a corner and dont know what else to say, you CHANGE THE SUBJECT, or try to get people +to look at some website of a disfellowshipped JW with an ax to grind, i will be glad to tell you why 90% of these people are disfellowshipped ! There are websites out there railing against every denomination out there, a dime a dozen. So, are you interested in learning more, or are you going to look for loopholes ?

 

[David1967]

Yes, you are right , there have been some times in our overzealous dessire to see this fufilled, we had some wrong expectations, so did Jesus disciples, Acts 1:6,7...they were expecting Gods kingdom on earth at that time, to come about, it did not, so did they give up and say, its never going to happen ? You know the answer to that ! We go by Gods timetable. The year 1914 was thought to be the end, it was not, what we have come to know what it realy was, it was not the end, but, the Begining of the last days, and has fit Jesus prophecy in Matthew Chapters 24 & 25 like a glove, it was early in our study of the bible, and a few wrong expectations were made. In Daniel 12:4 , in a prophecy about the last days, the Angel told Daniel that DURING THE TIME OF THE END, when true knowledge would become abundant, and that none of the wicked would understand ...Dan12:9,10, ..., BUT , there would be ones with insight who WOULD understand, and that this prophecy would be kept a secret UNTILL THE LAST DAYS ! We look at it like gods word at ...Proverbs 4:18...we have gradually had the light made brighter and brighter, so that we now undersand a lot more than we did early on ! YOU ARE USING A VERY OLD TACTIC that we run into all the time, the minute you get backed into a corner and dont know what else to say, you CHANGE THE SUBJECT, or try to get people +to look at some website of a disfellowshipped JW with an ax to grind, i will be glad to tell you why 90% of these people are disfellowshipped ! There are websites out there railing against every denomination out there, a dime a dozen. So, are you interested in learning more, or are you going to look for loopholes ?

The question was how many times have they predicted the end. Wikipedia states those times with corresponding issues of the watchtower to match. Yes you are right that many people over the years have set dates despite Jesus saying that "no one knows the hour, not even the angels , but only God knows." So that being said, I don't know why anyone would be silly enough to make such predictions. But to debate an issue in sincerity ,I would first have to take it a bit more seriously. Not to mention this is not a JW debate thread. And that's all I have to say about this.

 

[kerndog]

But he is "walking the walk", so what are you personally doing? Also, how exactly do you know his actions are only "token"?

BTW, I ain't Catholic.

Not catholic ? You are dragging around the same basic doctrines the catholic church cooked up. The reformation had an excellent opportunity to clean house when they broke off, but instead of cleaning house, they merely swept most of the dirt under the rug !

 

[Deeje]

What you say above in regards to "sun worship" is simply a fabrication as I used to teach a comparative religions that covered early and later church history, and also my wife is Catholic and I have made some presentations at her church. What you are doing is conflating "symbolism" with "worship".

I think a picture is worth a thousand words.

The monstrance, clearly picturing the sun.....the Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square. The Egyptian obelisk in the middle of the sun wheel is a relic of sun worship.
Then there is the shape of the host, unlike the broken, unleavened bread that Christ shared with his apostles. The symbol on the Pope's headgear is the sun and much of the statuary...all are tied to sun worship.

Your charge of "false doctrines" is highly debatable, to say the least, and there has been corruption, pedofelia, etc. to be found in all religious groups, including yours. The Catholics have admitted as such, albeit it took them a long time to get there, but at least they have done so and are working on it. Do you admit this happens in your body or are you going to deny it?

No organization is free from the scourge of pedophilia, especially when those people are in positions of trust. But I have yet to see an institution that cultivated this crime on the same level, and to the same extent that Roman Catholic Church did in its boarding schools churches and institutions all over the world. No alter boy was safe.

Finally, I would suggest that a "Christian" is one who believes in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit and tries to live a life style dictated by the "N.T.", so for you to say they are "apostates" and therefore not "Christian", is pathetically judgmental and bigoted, especially in light that some Christian groups say the same about your faith. However, to its credit, the RCC does not do that.

Jesus did not hold back criticism of the Pharisees in his day and nor did his disciples. Even John the Baptist was not backward in castigating them for their hypocrisy. People had to know what frauds their teachers were, lest they make the mistake of thinking that they were being taught God's truth.
Would you like to take Catholic doctrine and compare it to the Christianity that Jesus taught? I assure you that you will find no similarity at all. Its departure from Christ's teachings was probably about 99%. The only thing they retained was the name Jesus Christ, but their conduct brought nothing but shame and reproach on everything he stood for.

So, as a non-Christian, I would take their approach any day of the week over yours, especially since you have ignored Jesus' teachings of "judge ye not" in regards to Catholics and Protestants.

It is not my judgment they have to fear. I am only a messenger and people are free to ignore anything I say...but no one will be able to plead ignorance.

BTW, how many times have the JW's predicted the end of the world? We're still here.

Actually, we have not predicted the end of the world. We have only hoped for the coming of God's kingdom...that is the good news that we preach in all the earth as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:14) We have had hope for a few "years" that came and went but we have "kept on the watch" as Jesus said to do, and it has kept our hope alive as these last days draw to a close.

Matt 24: 42-44:
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."

Each day that goes by is a day closer. Nothing wrong with being ready.

 

[metis]

Not catholic ? You are dragging around the same basic doctrines the catholic church cooked up. The reformation had an excellent opportunity to clean house when they broke off, but instead of cleaning house, they merely swept most of the dirt under the rug !

No, I'm just trying to respond against the religious bigotry, regardless which religion is being demeaned, that we all too often see on these boards.

 

[metis]

I think a picture is worth a thousand words.

The monstrance, clearly picturing the sun.....the Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square. The Egyptian obelisk in the middle of the sun wheel is a relic of sun worship.
Then there is the shape of the host, unlike the broken, unleavened bread that Christ shared with his apostles. The symbol on the Pope's headgear is the sun and much of the statuary...all are tied to sun worship.



No organization is free from the scourge of pedophilia, especially when those people are in positions of trust. But I have yet to see an institution that cultivated this crime on the same level, and to the same extent that Roman Catholic Church did in its boarding schools churches and institutions all over the world. No alter boy was safe.



Jesus did not hold back criticism of the Pharisees in his day and nor did his disciples. Even John the Baptist was not backward in castigating them for their hypocrisy. People had to know what frauds their teachers were, lest they make the mistake of thinking that they were being taught God's truth.
Would you like to take Catholic doctrine and compare it to the Christianity that Jesus taught? I assure you that you will find no similarity at all. Its departure from Christ's teachings was probably about 99%. The only thing they retained was the name Jesus Christ, but their conduct brought nothing but shame and reproach on everything he stood for.



It is not my judgment they have to fear. I am only a messenger and people are free to ignore anything I say...but no one will be able to plead ignorance.



Actually, we have not predicted the end of the world. We have only hoped for the coming of God's kingdom...that is the good news that we preach in all the earth as Jesus said we should. (Matt 24:14) We have had hope for a few "years" that came and went but we have "kept on the watch" as Jesus said to do, and it has kept our hope alive as these last days draw to a close.

Matt 24: 42-44:
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."

Each day that goes by is a day closer. Nothing wrong with being ready.

There is nothing with the above that even gets close to proving your point as you continue to conflate symbolism with a form of idolatry. Catholic Canon Law forbids the worship of any image, so someone or some group has seriously misled you on this, and if it's from your own JW's, maybe you'd be better off looking for a better place to affiliate.

Secondly, I hardly give the RCC a "get out of jail free" pass with its handling, or better to say mishandling, of the pedophile scandals.

Finally, religious bigotry is still religious bigotry, and those who use this despicable tactic always do so by again blaming the entire group, typically making false accusations as you have done. A far more honorable and honest approach is to deal with specific issues and not the entire church or religion.

 

[David1967]

There is nothing with the above that even gets close to proving your point as you continue to conflate symbolism with a form of idolatry. Catholic Canon Law forbids the worship of any image, so someone or some group has seriously misled you on this, and if it's from your own JW's, maybe you'd be better off looking for a better place to affiliate.

Good point. How many times does a group mislead its followers, as in the countless failed predictions I listed in a previous post, not to mention the preposterous "Miracle Wheat" debacle, before people wake up and see the fact that they've been deceived?

Secondly, I hardly give the RCC a "get out of jail free" pass with its handling, or better to say mishandling, of the pedophile scandals.

I find it amazing that anyone would seriously believe that, but unfortunately...I continue to be amazed.

Finally, religious bigotry is still religious bigotry, and those who use this despicable tactic always do so by again blaming the entire group, typically making false accusations as you have done.

It seems that some folks reinforce their own particular brand of beliefs by putting down the sincerely held beliefs of another rather than allowing it to stand on its own merit. False accusations and blaming of an entire group is a low blow that doesn't lead to honest debate.

A far more honorable and honest approach is to deal with specific issues and not the entire church or religion.

Honor and honesty. Now that my friend is a novel idea.

 

[kerndog]

No, I'm just trying to respond against the religious bigotry, regardless which religion is being demeaned, that we all too often see on these boards.

No !! I am not bigoted towards the people of these religions, we have many, many people in our faith who were formerly catholics, we also have many who were formerly miltary veterans, we have to 2 Vietnam combat vets, a former Navy man who retired from the Navy with the rank of Petty Oficer in my congregation alone, we come from ALL walks of life, we are just like you. I myself come from a Pentecostal background. BUT, this IS a religious debate forum, when someone who makes a statement about a RELIGIOUS leader of the world, that we KNOW is a little (alot) misleading, we DEBATE the truthfulness of it. IF YOU want to support this man, and his position, i for one will not hate you at all ,but it makes you a WILLING participant in their crimes against God, does it not ? The country of Germany tried to use this same logic in refuting their involvement in supporting hitler,...."We were just doing what our Government told us to do" If you support Donald Trump and vote for him, support him with money, volenteer work , ect....and he leads us down the road to destruction, do you think you have any accountability, for being a big part of it ? BTW...i could care less who gets voted president. We have been voting men and women in and out of office for the last couple of hundred years now,....SO,....HOWS THAT WORKINGOUT FOR YOU ? Are we better off....or worse ? ....According to gods word it is much the same with our religious leaders, they are in bed with with the Governments of the world, thus commiting spiritual ADULTRY...James 4:4 ...so untill the moderator takes down the word..."Debate".....thats what we will do.

 

[metis]

No !! I am not bigoted towards the people of these religions, we have many, many people in our faith who were formerly catholics, we also have many who were formerly miltary veterans, we have to 2 Vietnam combat vets, a former Navy man who retired from the Navy with the rank of Petty Oficer in my congregation alone, we come from ALL walks of life, we are just like you. I myself come from a Pentecostal background. BUT, this IS a religious debate forum, when someone who makes a statement about a RELIGIOUS leader of the world, that we KNOW is a little (alot) misleading, we DEBATE the truthfulness of it. IF YOU want to support this man, and his position, i for one will not hate you at all ,but it makes you a WILLING participant in their crimes against God, does it not ? The country of Germany tried to use this same logic in refuting their involvement in supporting hitler,...."We were just doing what our Government told us to do" If you support Donald Trump and vote for him, support him with money, volenteer work , ect....and he leads us down the road to destruction, do you think you have any accountability, for being a big part of it ? BTW...i could care less who gets voted president. We have been voting men and women in and out of office for the last couple of hundred years now,....SO,....HOWS THAT WORKINGOUT FOR YOU ? Are we better off....or worse ? ....According to gods word it is much the same with our religious leaders, they are in bed with with the Governments of the world, thus commiting spiritual ADULTRY...James 4:4 ...so untill the moderator takes down the word..."Debate".....thats what we will do.

All you are doing in the above is rambling and bringing in things we're not discussing.

What you simply cannot seem to get is the fact that you complain about how other denominations have viewed JW's as not being "true Christians", and yet you turn that around and do exactly the same thing to others, especially Catholics. And anyone reading this should notice that you did not condemn Catholics that have converted to become JW's, but yet you continue to judge Catholics who have remained Catholic, and then distorted what the RCC actually has and does teach. Not only are you ignoring Jesus' words of not judging others, you are not telling the truth about what the RCC actually teaches, and when that truth comes out you still cannot confess that you made a mistake.

There's nothing wrong with debate, and heaven knows I've been in a lot of them, but there very much is something wrong with a religious bigotry that condemns an entire denomination or religion and the people in it as you and some others have done. You simply cannot complain about being mislabeled and yet do the same exactly thing to someone else's denomination without slipping into nothing short of sheer hypocrisy.

Maybe it's just best to let God do the judging of people and even denominations or religions-- I think it's well beyond your and my pay-grade-- then you can deal with specific issues that you might disagree with.