The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

[SethZaddik]

Did someone say give Palestine back to who?

Obviously the Palestinians, stupid question.

 

[Tumah]

I love how it's my fault that someone else decided to slander Mohammed(PBUH) only for the fact that I mentioned he was the source of the quote, "Return evil with good."

I have no idea what you're talking about, nor did I respond to anything related to either of those statements.

I can tell you right now that murder is as much a sin in Islam as in any religion and that persecuting Jews was not something he did or any Muslim literature (Qur'an or Sunnah) espouses, so to return my quote with a question like: "Was that before or after he killed 8-900 Jews for refusing to convert?'' something forbidden in the Qur'an, and basically an off the top of the head lie or second hand lie, is wicked and not my fault.

Again, no clue what you're talking about.

People should not lie.

That's true. Personally I'm not a fan of monologues either.

I wonder if it's because I am Muslim that you are acting foolish, I guess that gives you the right though, huh? We don't count, aren't human, is that it?

Here's that card game again.

I'm a pacifist and don't care about politics.

Me too!

I also hate lies and liars.

I don't know if I would use such strong language myself, but I'm not fond of them, that's true.

If you are so concerned about the thread staying on topic then wouldn't it make more sense not to message me... if you truly cared?

If I did care, then yes, you'd be right. That would be the correct thing to do.

If someone says something to me about my topic relevant comment, and I responded, I didn't derail the thread, they did.

I think, if someone makes a comment irrelevant to the topic and someone else points it out. I think the former is the one who initiated the derailing.

Which is exactly what happened. Thankfully God has given me knowledge to deal with such frauds.

Alhamudillah.

Like you.

Amen.

 

[Tumah]

Did someone say give Palestine back to who?

Obviously the Palestinians, stupid question.

Yes? Why should they "get it back"? How could they get it "back"? Doesn't that imply that they were governing the land before hand? I believe it was the British that was governing the land before the Jews.

 

[SethZaddik]

That's cute.


You weren't displaying it so well.


The country? The nation?


Yes, I have a lot to learn about Judaism.


A peaceful political statement in a thread about religion? Why?


Oh, here's the original content of this post.


Personally, the number of times I've seen you play the "I'm an oppressed Muslim" card, makes me wonder if you hate having grown up with "white privilege" and are trying to make up for it by "becoming" a persecuted minority. I haven't expressed any anti-Muslim bias because what I disagree with is your opinion. I don't care what religion you are. I have argued much more vociferously against the OP in other threads than I have with you here.

Let's debate instead of playing cards.


Only because I haven't seen it. I've only responded to posts that mention Jews or Judaism, which you did. But I started viewing the thread from the last page and worked by way back when a post caught my eye and lead me to you. I get that you're new to being a minority, but relax.


Oh? Do you live in the KSA then?


If you feel that you didn't, then wouldn't the correct reply be linking me to the post that did turn it political? I'd be happy to correct myself? No need to start playing this card game.


It seems to be.


Connection?


Why are you telling me this?

Welcome to the internet.

Really?

Is there supposed to be something in your message that excuses your biggoted response to me?

I don't have to prove that the Jews think they are the Messiah, the Jewish OP did that already.

That I was alre

I know! I just wish someone would have told the invading Muslims that back in the 7th century. Don't you agree?


Can you prove that?

The Muslims conquered Israel from the Byzantines, who got it [back] from the Sassanids. The Byzantines weren't the greatest, but the Sassanids weren't that bad.

I'm not sure what the poor Byzantines did to deserve being conquered by Muslims on the way to conquering Syria. I don't know what the poor Syrians did either.


That's kind of a vague statement. Are you talking about how Byzantine Europe lost Jerusalem to the conquering Muslim army? Are you talking about how Christian Europe lost it during the Crusades to the Muslims? Are you talking about how the European British lost it when they handed it over to the Jews?


Honestly, that's heart warming. The conquerors who conquered our land from our conquerors conquerors are warmly welcoming us to live with them. So sweet.



Except for that time we were expelled Muslim controlled Morocco and Spain. Or that other time where we were expelled (or forced to undergo conversion) from Isfahan, Persia. And of course, all the Jews that fled or were expelled from Muslim countries in the 20th century.

Its probably best not to live in a fantasy dream world. Let's not forget about the Almohads. Let's also not forget the Zaydi's Orphan Decree and the Pact of Umar. The Granada Massacre. The Moroccan mellahs.

Probably best if you just read this brief history. And this one.


Taken in? You mean by the British...?

Is that what you think? Have you not heard of the Hebron Massacre of 1929 and the events leading up to it?


You mean the pre-emptive war that Israel fought with Egypt. Maybe it would have been better if Egypt didn't plan an attack?


No seriously. What fantasy are you living in? It was the British that "took us in". Friend in Arabic is rafiq not dhimmi.

Roses are nice, but let's not paint a picture that's too rosy.

Messiahs?

Are you talking about capturing the Golan Heights from Syria the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, Sinai from Egypt?


Violation of which treaty? What occupied Palestinian territory are you talking about?


All that means, is that two wrongs don't make a right. Right? I mean, we don't need to discuss all the Palestinian terrorist activities against Jewish/Israeli civilians far from any borders who certainly did not provoke or justify the atrocities committed against them


Give it back to whom? The Romans? The Byzantines? The Seleucids? The Muslims? The British? Which conquering power should "get it back"?


Can you explain what would be "messianic" about that?

already aware of this and you weren't is on you but the reason I participated.

Go ahead and spew your ignorance about Mohammed, it's not going to get me riled up and he's dead.

You aren't even saying anything worthy of discussion. What does Mohammed have to do with anything other than you lying?

You are doing the same thing as the last person, you can't resist hating on Mohammed, truth is you don't know about him except for anything you might use against Islam.

Despicable. I've been a perfect pacifist, you are a hater.

 

[SethZaddik]

Yes? Why should they "get it back"? How could they get it "back"? Doesn't that imply that they were governing the land before hand? I believe it was the British that was governing the land before the Jews.

Yes, Palestine, such a rightfully British land. Lol.

Did they own their homes, the ones they were forcefully removed from by an invading army?

There is no justification for the Israeli invasion and annexation of Palestine.

Very simple concept.

 

[SethZaddik]

Yes? Why should they "get it back"? How could they get it "back"? Doesn't that imply that they were governing the land before hand? I believe it was the British that was governing the land before the Jews.

If you don't want your card used don't pull it out and give me the pin.

 

[SethZaddik]

Boy, debating you guys is a breeze

The immediate assumption that Mohammed and Islam are evil is pretty ignorant but also not the topic.

 

[SethZaddik]

However, the theft of Palestinians land and homes is undeniable.

It WAS theirs, Britain had no legit claim but did a shady deal with the would be Israelis that even disturbs Jews today who aren't radicalized thinking they have the only rightful claim to something they had none.

Not Messianic at all.

They need to give it back to the Palestinians, and you people need to learn some things.

However I doubt you would listen to anyone who disagrees with your spoon fed propaganda tainted brains.

 

[SethZaddik]

Trying to bring up 7th century personalities you don't know the real history of is not going to work on me, especially since it has nothing to do with this thread or 1967's robbery of Palestine.

It created the at the time world's largest refugee camp.

I love how people say outrageous things with no basis in fact and turn and ask me to prove something.

You want proof some Jews think some Jews are the Messiah?

I'd imagine the OP could do that, not like he hasn't already but ask him, he is Jewish and will tell you yes, it's true.

Prove what Mohammed did was worse than Paul or Constantine or the Inquisition or the burning at the stakes, prove he did anything other than participate and war and found a new religion, a wildly successful one too.

Because God told Joshua and his army to kill everything moving at God's direction and Moses too had people killed, I don't see participating in 7th century Asian wars anything to worry about today.

It's like the pettiest "I don't know any real facts so ssspewwww!!!" maneuver I can imagine. That's what people do whenever Islam is mentioned, Mohammed did...

Whatever the person wants to say.

Prove he did anything beyond lead a revolution similar to Joshua. Actually when you think about it he was far less violent than Joshua and less persecutory and violent than Saul/Paul.

And the Qur'an is less violent than the Bible.

 

[rosends]

Did someone say give Palestine back to who?

Obviously the Palestinians, stupid question.

Yes, I did, and you have done nothing to explain an answer. It must be easier just to criticize the question and avoid the truth in it. Palestine wasn't a country. The people who lived there, Arabs, Jews, Christians etc. can all be called Palestinians. Israel IS a country. It was created through international recognition, land purchases and through defensive war. So your non-answer remains a non-answer. Debating you is a breeze, except it isn't debate. It is pointing out that you have yet to say anything.

 

[rosends]

Trying to bring up 7th century personalities you don't know the real history of is not going to work on me, especially since it has nothing to do with this thread or 1967's robbery of Palestine.

It created the at the time world's largest refugee camp.

Wait. Can you just clarify something: are you really that ignorant of 20th century history or are you a Poe? Because this looks suspiciously like Poe work. And by the way, this thread wasn't about 1967 (or 1948) until you made it such.

I love how people say outrageous things with no basis in fact and turn and ask me to prove something.

Yeah, it must be annoying being asked to prove things.

You want proof some Jews think some Jews are the Messiah?

I'd imagine the OP could do that, not like he hasn't already but ask him, he is Jewish and will tell you yes, it's true.

His contention is the subject of this thread. It is a contention steeped in his personal view and not representative of Jewish thinking. So no one needs proof that someone makes the claim. That's why we are here. As to the "he is Jewish" claim...well, debatable.

And the Qur'an is less violent than the Bible.

That might or might not be true. But who cares? This thread isn't about the Koran.

 

[SethZaddik]

And the west more violent, technologically efficient and we live here, it's prudent to get people to believe that Islam is evil.

I'm just not stupid enough to let propaganda dictate my thoughts. The very foremost reason I became a Muslim was because people like that make me sick, and Islam was the thing to hate if you had hate to spew it was safe to spew it, still is.

But I am still a Muslim, and was totally honest about why I joined which is perfectly acceptable.

Great people too.

 

[SethZaddik]

Wait. Can you just clarify something: are you really that ignorant of 20th century history or are you a Poe? Because this looks suspiciously like Poe work. And by the way, this thread wasn't about 1967 (or 1948) until you made it such.

Yeah, it must be annoying being asked to prove things.

His contention is the subject of this thread. It is a contention steeped in his personal view and not representative of Jewish thinking. So no one needs proof that someone makes the claim. That's why we are here. As to the "he is Jewish" claim...well, debatable.

That might or might not be true. But who cares? This thread isn't about the Koran.

You kind of made it about Islam, I reacted to it.

Let me get this right.

You can say whatever, I can't tell you it's not the topic though you brought it up, but I do it and you can tell me it's not the topic?

Your a damn hypocrite. Salaam.

 

[Tumah]

Really?

Yes. Really.

Is there supposed to be something in your message that excuses your biggoted response to me?

Back to card games, eh?

I don't have to prove that the Jews think they are the Messiah, the Jewish OP did that already.

Yes. And Major Ala Wahib proves that all Palestinian Muslims self-identify as "Zionist Israeli Arabs". So since everyone's on the same side, what's the problem?

That I was already aware of this and you weren't is on you but the reason I participated.

This.

Go ahead and spew your ignorance about Mohammed, it's not going to get me riled up and he's dead.

You aren't even saying anything worthy of discussion. What does Mohammed have to do with anything other than you lying?

You are doing the same thing as the last person, you can't resist hating on Mohammed, truth is you don't know about him except for anything you might use against Islam.

Despicable. I've been a perfect pacifist, you are a hater.

I didn't say one word about Muhammad, nor did I reference him indirectly. I think you're playing card games again.

 

[SethZaddik]

Wait. Can you just clarify something: are you really that ignorant of 20th century history or are you a Poe? Because this looks suspiciously like Poe work. And by the way, this thread wasn't about 1967 (or 1948) until you made it such.

Yeah, it must be annoying being asked to prove things.

His contention is the subject of this thread. It is a contention steeped in his personal view and not representative of Jewish thinking. So no one needs proof that someone makes the claim. That's why we are here. As to the "he is Jewish" claim...well, debatable.

That might or might not be true. But who cares? This thread isn't about the Koran.

I obviously know more about history than you do.

 

[SethZaddik]

Fine. If you want this to be political, I will engage. Let's take a look at what you said. I'll point out where your inventions and lies are. Now, you can feel free to defend them or whatever you want -- I still think that a religion forum is not the place for it, but you are pressing the issue, so here's the breakdown of your complete breakdown. I invite you to take this somewhere more appropriate and try to do some background reading before you spout off again.

You won't listen, but I'm trying to be reasonable in the face of your intransigence.


Mistake 1. Before WW1 there were Jews who were Palestinian. Your mistake here is establishing 2 distinct groups.


Here the mistake is in the whitewashing. Violence against Jews in the region at the hands of Arabs is well documented, even before WW1.


This isn’t so much a lie as it is an admission of a baseline ignorance.


Another problem – the “Palestinian Muslims” never existed as a ruling power. After the Ottoman Turks, the British took over.


You mean as dhimmi. Thanks for that. Do you really think that Jews are welcome in the Arab world? You should look at the dwindling communities, the oppressive laws and the socio-political exclusion. You can start with The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries and feel free to ignore it because you don’t like the source – that will do nothing to change the facts it references. But if your argument is accurate then your position is that might makes right and “getting it back” creates facts on the ground so you just validated Israel’s position as in charge because they “got it back.”


Zoinks – really? You mean the British took Jews in and only some of them; the Arabs weren’t in charge during the British mandate. Many Muslims welcomed the Jews and benefitted from their work, but there were also Jews who already lived there so they weren’t “taken in” by anyone. For some light reading, try http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/mf2017.pdf#page=14


The 6 day war – there was no “Palestine” in 1967 and you should read the Khartoum resolutions to see what the Arab world felt it had to deal with afterwards, and it wasn't anything to do with refugees. As to “creating refugees” in 1967, that wasn’t really what happened.


You mean the rulers of the British mandate who allowed in some people to go along with the people who already lived there.


Ah, that must explain the 1929 Chevron massacre. And Haj Amin El Husseini and his Fedayeen in 1921. And thanks, Yunus Nadi, for your really positive opinion of Zionists!


Annex what now? There never was a country called Palestine. Everyone knows that. There was a country created in 1947/8 called Israel. There were defensive wars and some annexation as a result of defensive wars. Your invention here is obvious.


Another lie. If Israel wanted more land, would it have given up the entire of the Sinai to Egypt? Would it have allowed for the creation of areas A and B under Oslo II? Would it allow the Wakf to control the temple mount? And “occupied Palestinian territory” is another lie. It doesn’t exist.


Isn’t it amazing that watchdog groups inside Israel have the freedom to criticize Israel, but in Arab countries, no one seems to call anyone out for atrocities? I was just reading Ambassador Haley’s statement after her meeting with the security council. Fascinating stuff.


Um, no. Not sure what that even means, let alone how it applies.


To whom? The British? The Turks? The Mamelukes? The Crusaders? As you said earlier, we “got it back”. Land was partitioned. Land was won in defensive wars. Land was bought and paid for. I know, you don’t like pesky facts, but you can’t ignore them because they make your position untenable. Here, read more http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/mf2017.pdf#page=27

I see that Tumah has done a great job of pointing out many of the same facts as I have so you can feel free to ignore my post, and just respond to the facts he lays out so well.

Tumah has not, merely your opinion and I'm not surprised.

Neither of you has said anything factual.

 

[SethZaddik]

Yes. Really.


Back to card games, eh?


Yes. And Major Ala Wahib proves that all Palestinian Muslims self-identify as "Zionist Israeli Arabs". So since everyone's on the same side, what's the problem?


This.


I didn't say one word about Muhammad, nor did I reference him indirectly. I think you're playing card games again.

Do you know what invasion means?

Occupation, annexation?

That's what Israel is, occupied Palestine. Annexed almost completely.

 

[SethZaddik]

I am just stating plain facts.

Palestine was stolen by Jews.

It's not difficult to grasp.

 

[Tumah]

If you don't want your card used don't pull it out and give me the pin.

Well that addresses nothing.

 

[SethZaddik]

Once it was called Palestine, 1966 and before.

Now it's not.

They didn't give it away.

It was stolen.

End of story.