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Featured The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ben Avraham, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

    We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1: "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

    Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. Now, we have established a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Suffering Servant is Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

    Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epitet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here's what it says in there: "Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me," says the Lord. That's why Hosea said that "When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1)

    Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; which he contributed heavily finacially; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

    How about Jesus, what do we have to classify him as at least a Messianic leader? Well, when he was born Israel was at home, although suffering under the foreign power of the Romans. As he grew up that suffering only got worse. When he left, the collective Messiah was expelled into another exile of about 2000 years. Not even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone as the Messiah himself.

    Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.
     
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  2. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Not sure where it states Isaiah 53 is the Messiah; so systematically prove it? :innocent:
     
  3. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    God foresaw HIs chosen people would reject Him as revealed through the prophet Isaiah 8:15-16

    "And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
    And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
    Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."


    The Apostle Paul referred to this stumbling block to the Jews as follows:

    "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone;
    As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
    Romans 9:30-33

    Jesus of course made clear His people would reject Him when He prophesized the destruction of the Temple and warned His followers to flee Judea:

    "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

    Matthew 24:1-2

    "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" Matthew 24:16

    Divine assistance and confirmations were there for the Christians.

    Christianity flourished.

    Judaism floundered.

    That being said I believe Israel will be the first nation to recognise the Messiah who will fulfil all prophecies in the Tanakh. They were only partially fulfilled by Christ.

    Best Wishes
     
  4. allfoak

    allfoak Alchemist

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    Perhaps he was talking about himself.
     
  5. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    God's chosen People did not reject Him. We simply did not recognize that Jesus could have been the Messiah. That's all. He did absolutely nothing that could entitle him as the Messiah.


    This is only according to the gospel of Paul. There is no righteousness by faith but all righteousness happens as a result of obedience to God's Law. Jesus himself asserted to that when he said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)


    The followers of Jesus were Jewish. Not a single Gentile or Christian. Jesus never even dreamed that Christianity would ever rise.


    Would you be so kind as to share with me the Messianic prophecies you claim were fulfilled by Jesus? I have read the Tanach many times and the NT a few and I have never found any thing about Jesus in the Tanach. Perhaps you know of things I don't. Please, mention to me any prophecy you have in mind fulfilled by Jesus and, if a failed to explain what the reference is to, I'll be honest enough to reconsider my views.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe this is all nonsense. You might as well say that Moses was from the African race because he was born in Egypt.
     
  7. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    And if that messiah turns out to be the 2nd coming of Christ?
     
  8. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant of the Lord. If you read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21 it is all about Isaiah identifying Israel by name as the suffering Servant of the Lord; Jesus as an individual is not even cogitated.
     
    #8 Ben Avraham, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  9. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    But you are terribly mistaken because that's not my saying any thing from the top of my head but from the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.
     
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  10. Ben Avraham

    Ben Avraham Well-Known Member

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    One thing I tell you: For sure, Isaiah 53 is not saying that Jesus was the Messiah. To make of him the Messiah, you must go to the gospel of Paul which was the NT. (II Timothy 2:8)
     
  11. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    The only reason it's believed that the suffering servant of Isaiah is because the Romans who wrote the life story of Issa the Nazarene aka Jesus /Jesu is that they didn't want the enemy (Jews) to have a militaristic King David type of Messiah but a suffering, martyred pacifist, which neither Romans or Judeans were.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls are the only legitimate 1st century documents we have to understand exactly what was expected of "the Messiah of Aaron and Israel."

    Which was not a pacifist yogi who could have lived anywhere from India to Egypt until 30 years of age and suddenly burst on the scene with magic powers born of a virgin named but not ever called Immanuel.

    First, no virgin birth in the Hebrew or Aramaic language texts existed. Second Immanuel was a code name for Cyrus the anointed Messiah of Isaiah.

    So the suffering servant, even in the Talmud, was always Israel in exile in Babylon. Romans were clever as were the Hellenized Alexander family related to the Herods and Flavians, specifically Philo Judaeus, innovator of the Hebrew Logos of God (Word aka Divine Reason, true meaning).

    As well educated as these Roman Jews or just Romans were they didn't understand that Isaiah was a fulfilled prophecy regarding the birth of Immanuel which was Cyrus ONE of many Messiahs in the Tanakh like well as David who was the "begotten son of God" a la Hebrews and old MSS. of Luke, G. of the Hebrews.

    Anyone who knows Josephus knows Vespasian was given the Oracle of the Star Prophecy.

    That 3 of his (Joseph of (Ari)mithaia is a pun on Josephus and his Hebrew name Mattityahu) friends were crucified and he requested the bodies be brought down with one of the three seditionists surviving crucifixion.

    The Roman tale of the Christ has nothing to do with a Jewish Messiah who was to be a KING of Kings, King Messiah.

    With a possible exception of a separate Priestly Messiah of Aaron, like the Scrolls Teacher of Righteousness which could have been the story of the real "Jesus. "

    The Messiah was never the suffering servant, is not today among Jews, and if I can not find in my copy of the DSS in " Messianic proof texts" was never expected to be.

    Israel is throughout Isaiah the suffering servant, the Messiah warrior King Cyrus, the "Immanuel."

    Typology is to blame, used in movies but otherwise a pretty dead literary method, was used in Tanakh and Gospel both to "prove" a persons divinity.

    Modern scrutiny of the Bible leads inevitably a sharp mind not interested in confirming beliefs only to the conclusion that Jesus was not who he was said to have been.

    After all his entourage was full of Zealots like Simon, Judas and Nazirites like his brother James who was a leader of Zealot Nazarenes that tried to assassinate Paul who was protected at all times and sent by Rome to suppress not Christians but Nazarene, Zadokite and Ebionite revolutionaries who hated him.

    Jesus may have existed but if so he was pro Judean and not a "render unto Caesar" give up being Jewish because my enemy Saul says so type of guy... Paul and the Gospels say he was.

    Much more like the book of Revelation depicts, Jesus expected to be crowned King of Kings, destroy Rome and redeem the Jews from servitude.

    Which never happened as the Jews were crushed in the second rebellion and Jewish Nazarenes were called copiers and heretics for... staying Jewish and rejecting Paul as did the Ebionites and disciples of Peter.

    If anyone wants to read something fascinating find the Syriac version of the Contendings of the apostles, the Ethiopian translation edits the anti Pauline content of the Syriac MSS. so is less valuable in content.

    The suffering servant was the Israelites themselves, who suffered cruelty from the Babylonians and worse under the Romans.

    Mohammed was more of a Messiah typologically along the lines of Cyrus or David even Joshua than was Jesus and actually did redeem the Jews of the Middle East. Sure they had some problems at times with Muslims but most of the time they were given sanctuary in Arabia, Syria,Turkey especially in Babylon, head of Rabbinical Judaism with a large Jewish population up to the Iraq invasion of 03.

    Palestine before the Crusades was a peaceful haven of Abrahamism and when the Europeans arrived to take Jerusalem they slaughtered wholesale Jew and Muslim down to the babies.

    Jesus was not the suffering servant.

    Not in the book of Isaiah anyhow, that was written and is still read to mean Israel.

    Today they are the cause of suffering , of the Palestinians who only ever helped Jews prior to the theft of their home land.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the days of Isaiah were not prolonged: v10.
     
  13. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    You mean the false gospel of Paul, right? He didn't write or know of ANY Gospels in written form, just his "faith alone" , damn the "curse" of the Law which leads to and causes sin, according to Paul.

    Quite the opposite of the evangelicons or "Gospels" which actually means "good news of victory" meaning militarily, a term no Jew would have used.

    Only a victorious Roman Empire would consider a dead Jewish would be King '' Good News."

    It certainly wasn't the Jews who prospered from the "Good News" of Titus victory and destruction of the Temple as "predicted" by Jesus.

    Or the walling off of Jerusalem or any of the pro Roman "prophecies" back dated by about 40 years to seem inspired later readers.

    The Mary who eats her baby in Josephus as a paschal Lamb is the inspiration for the "body of Christ" cannibal (Cain+Baal) human sacrifice cult ritual of eating the Passover Lamb and drinking his blood which nicely fits Melchizedeks meeting with Abraham.

    Although Abraham likely did sacrifice Isaac who was his second, not first son, originally as MLCHZDK could also make Righteous Moloch, the god of infant sacrifice. It may have been flesh and blood then, too.

    REAL flesh and blood.

    Either way it is a pagan ritual.

    Paul was a Roman spy.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Has it ever occurred to you that a rant is not equivalent to facts and logic?

    Joh 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.
    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Mt 27:14 And he gave him no answer, not even to one word: insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
    Isa. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    John 19:38 ¶ And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body.
    39 And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds.
    40 So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.
    Mt 27:57 And when even was come, there came a rich man from Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple:
    Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
     
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  15. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    Moses was raised in Egypt by Egyptians, and his story at birth lifted from Sargon anyway so not real.

    BUT he did have a black wife, a Cu****e, who was likely not Zipporah so he had jungle fever and that means anyone in that line would have Cu****e blood. Maybe the Lemba have a legitimate claim to begin Jews after all, and not just as converts.

    The Hyksos were the shepherd kings of Egypt, call Jesus the last shepherd king and first fisher king if you will as mythologically it makes sense as we passed into the Piscean era. The dead lamb succeeded the dead bull as a symbol of the times, Mithras killed the bull, Rome, the Lamb.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you should write a book because you are so good at writing fiction.
     
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  17. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    So you can't answer the question.... Try not to make so many statements, if they can't be backed up with evidence.
    Rubbish, you've already shown consistently not to look at information presented or to answer the questions asked.
    Isaiah 41:8 refers to Jacob son of Abraham specifically by name.
    Isaiah 44:1-2 Jacob again as the servant, and Israel his Chosen.

    Isaiah 44:21 is saying Israel is the servant.
    So this statement is just wrong; there are some statements in Isaiah that are assigned to Israel, yet not all. :rolleyes:

    Could prove a case; yet honestly don't think you're interested in learning. :innocent:
     
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  18. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    Has it never occurred to you that writing is a simple thing to do with the technique of typology?

    If the misreading of Isaiah's suffering servant as Messianic was error on behalf of a Roman using the Septuagint which started the false prophecy of a virgin birth which is NOT in the Hebrew scriptures?

    That happened factually. Isaiah never prophesied a virgin birth so we know for a fact that someone messed up as even the Great Isaiah Scroll from BC proves beyond doubt it is only in the Greek.

    It's no stretch to conclude that a Roman using the Septuagint thought that the Messiah and suffering servant were one and the same.

    Yet Cyrus was THAT Messiah, and Israel THAT suffering servant.

    Roman fingerprints are all over the Gospels and why not, a Roman invented Christianity under the pseudonym Paul.

    Which in Aramaic means deciever.

    What are the odds?
     
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  19. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    Not fiction, that is the proper interpretation of the text, hell, the footnotes in my Bible even say so as does the Talmud, although what specifically are you accusing me of writing that is fiction?

    Insults are one thing, proving they are true... something else.
     
  20. SethZaddik

    SethZaddik Active Member

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    Would you like to back up your accusations with some facts, because I wrote nothing fictitious that was not already fictitious and what I commented on as history is actually written history.

    So you might want to chill, I know more than this and I would love to debate with you.
     
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