The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

[Ben Avraham]

Only difference now is that you know Messiahs from Judaism in real recorded history fail, always.

That the Messiah concept was given to the RCC, who paganized it, that you were persecuted for killing a person you didn't know and have hoped ever since for revenge, against the RCC.

Proving yourselves to be the Messiah as God's "chosen people" would do that, but how could you and at whose destruction?

Because a Messiah doesn't steal land from people who have no quarrel with them thinking God says it is OK.

Or engineer wars, spread propaganda about Palestinians and get away with it.

Satan, Samael, Belial, Mastema, Asmodeus, Lilith, do things like that.

If you are talking about the Land of Israel, all our life was suffering under occupations, when not by Christians at the time of the Crusades, we suffered under the occupation of Islam. Are you talking against our rights to defend ourselves even now that we have become a strong State? You have all the right in the world to attack us but we also have all the rights in the world to defend ourselves. 99% of terrorism in our Country is perpetrated by Palestinians and Arabs in general. Why should we sit duck and let them kill us? Since 1948, the Arabs have made 5 wars on us and got disappointed to expect to face with sitting ducks and have lost every time. Bottom line is that we must defend ourselves specially now that we have the proper strength to fight back with the help of HaShem.

 

[pearl]

Crucifying someone could reasonably be considered a form of rejection! Who crucified Him? Caiaphas the high priest of the Jews judged Him. The Jewish people judged Him when they jeered for the release of a criminal Barabbas, so that an innocent man, Jesus, would be put to death.QUOTE

Historical research and reconstruction of the arrest of Jesus has given very interesting conclusions that ought to put to rest the involvement of the Jews culminating in the anti Semitism in gospel of John, which unfortunately has been the 'popular' image of Jesus life and death that has formed through the centuries. We must consider the Gospels to be theologically driven narratives, and some were apologetic and some were polemical. Concerning the roles played by Caiaphas and Pilate;
the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate, effectively appointed Caiaphas as high priest. Pilate could remove an uncooperative priest by refusing to give him the sacred vestments worn to enter the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. Since Caiaphas remained high priest during Pilate's entire tenure as prefect, it seems clear that they had a good working relationship. As for the Jewish people 'jeering' him;
of historical importance in reconstructing the circumstances of Jesus' death is the fact that Passover in Jerusalem could be a volatile time. Thousands of Jewish pilgrims streamed to Jerusalem from all over the Mediterranean world to celebrate the festival of freedom from foreign domination, and who quite possible never heard of Jesus but, knew Barabbas, and upon arriving they would see many signs of Roman supremacy. The first-century writer Flavius Josephus tells of the regular Roman practice of stationing troops to maintain public order in the Temple precincts (Jewish Wars, 2.12.1). The inflamed mood of the Jewish populace at Passover probably explains why Pilate was in Jerusalem, instead of at his headquarters in Caesarea Maritima, when Jesus entered the city. If, as the synoptic Gospels relate, Jesus caused a disturbance in the Temple after his arrival, this would certainly alarm both Jewish and Roman authorities: a Galilean troublemaker might be planning to start a Passover riot. Pilate would want to keep the peace. So would Caiaphas, who could reasonably fear that violence could lead to the destruction of the Temple. By the time the author of John writes, the priests and the Jewish leaders who opposed Jesus, become 'the Jews', 'collectively' responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.
I think this misunderstanding of the Crucifixion allowed Hitler to carry out his heinous crimes against the Jews, and the United States to, in '39, to turn away a ship with hundreds of Jews escaping Hitler.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Stop pretending to be Jewish; you've already stated you don't accept multiple principles of Judaism, and then speak to everyone on the forum as if you're Jewish.

The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.
13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

Do you think that a messianic era could be possible without the Messiah? Of course not? So, the Messiah would have to return so that a messianic era be inaugurated. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, for the Jews to be forced out into exile is the same as to be cut off from the Land of the Living aka Israel and graves be assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord would open their graves and bring them back to the Land of Israel. That's what happened to the "Dry Bones' prophecy of Ezekiel 37:12, So, their return to the Land of Israel would be the same as resurrection of the dead. Maimonides would never be referring to literal bodily resurrection. He would not promote the Christian doctrine of bodily resurrection. That's the real interpretation of the last two principles of Faith by Moses Maimonides.

 

[wizanda]

Do you think that a messianic era could be possible without the Messiah?

Yes, personally think everyone could be anointed in the Messianic age...

And rather than ancient faulty monarchy; we have something that resembles Heaven's theocracy (Oneness).

Maimonides would never be referring to literal bodily resurrection.

Last time we spoke on this, posted all the Maimonides debates, letters; did you not read any of it?

Maimonides was teaching, that in the age to come we shall not have these corruptible physical bodies; yet shall be raised into an infinite state again.

 

[Dawnofhope]

?

Thank you for sharing these historical insights. Its all very interesting.

Its hard to take responsibility for our actions or inaction. To say 'I was wrong and you were right' seems for some impossible. Sometimes there are unpalatable truths that we just can not bear to hear.

In regards to the Jews rejection of their Messiah, God has forgiven them. Mark 3:28-30

Were there consequences for what the Jews did or failed to do? Matthew 24:1-2, 21-22

As to the question of anti-Semitism culminating in unspeakable atrocities. Matthew 5:43-45, Luke 10:25-37

Christians need to take responsibility. Their actions and inaction have profound spiritual consequences and continue to do so.

Jesus urged us to be mindful of the sign of the times. Matthew 16:2-3

Has not the following prophecy has been fulfilled? Matthew 24:29

 

[pearl]

In regards to the Jews rejection of their Messiah, God has forgiven them.

The point is that not ALL Jews rejected Jesus, it was after all Jews who were the followers of Jesus and Jews who formed the church. Jesus was arrested at night by stealth to avoid his Jewish followers. Salvation for all, which Jesus represents, is from the Jews.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The point is that not ALL Jews rejected Jesus, it was after all Jews who were the followers of Jesus and Jews who formed the church. Jesus was arrested at night by stealth to avoid his Jewish followers. Salvation for all, which Jesus represents, is from the Jews.

That is true, as it is was for Christians who loved Jews and had nothing to with anti-Semitism. However there was only a relatively small group of Jews in Judea who responded positively to Christ's message. There was a small minority of Christians who stood up to Hitler. This was insufficient to affect the actions of both Nations. Serious consequences inevitably followed.

 

[pearl]

However there was only a relatively small group of Jews in Judea who responded positively to Christ's message.

And from a small acorn, a mighty oak......

 

[SethZaddik]

I consider an anti-semitic charge to accuse the Jews with having crucified Jesus. The Jews had nothing at all to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. The opposite is rather true that the Pharisees tried twice to save Jesus from being arrested, first by Herod and second by Pilate. Herod had sent his cohorts to arrest Jesus, some of the Pharisees found that out and revealed to Jesus what was about to happened so that Jesus could leave the area. Jesus did as he was advised and escaped arrest.

Next time around was from Pilate. Jesus' disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem, some among the Pharisees tried to warn him to stop the foolishness of his disciple but, this time, Jesus seemed to be enjoying the parade and answered them that, if he stopped them the stones would cry. (Luke 19:37-40)

Not too long afterwards, Jesus was arrested, taken to Court before Pilate and condemned to the cross with his verdict nailed on the top of his cross which read INRI by orders of Pilate so that all could see the reason why Jesus was crucified. It didn't help though because, even up to this very day the antisemites prefer the slander that the Jews crucified Jesus and not according to his verdict. Antisemitism is like the bubonic plague; it responds to no medication.

It's very racist to claim the occupied territory of Rome, Judea, in the midst of all the other things going on at the time, would kill the Messiah.

It was a Roman "pass the buck" move to do so. Epiphanius reported, the Clementine Homilies and Recognitions also, as well as the Bible, that Nazarenes and Pharisees got along.

You have Gamaliel, 'Nicodemus' and Ananias (probably son of Ananias), 'Joseph of Arimathea' and he eats with them (without washing his hands, wash ya hands Jesus!) and Zealots, wasn't nearly as hateful of Pharisees as people think, he was not a person to judge by party affiliation, to be in his crew of 12, oddly enough the amount of Caesars plus Brutus, another JC turncoat, different JC.

No, the people responsible for the extrajudicial murder of James were guilty but just them, the Herodian/Pauline sympathizers.

Rome WAS Christianity and before that there was a Pax Romana that may have been stymied by the refusal of Jews to worship Caesar, not the diplomats Alexander was who understood their faith forbid it.

Rome's arch nemesis was the Judeans and all but Sadducees connected with Herod were not at all fond of Rome, never would have killed their Annointed Messiah.

Some say they did so because he was against rebelling but he was not, he was against evil and a Zaddik like James who was a Zealot leader, not just zealous Christians but Zealots, literally, for the Law. They also believed Yesha was the Messiah.

Paul had more to do with destroying the Messianic message on behalf of Rome than he did anything else, two were expected though, one of Aaron, a Levite and the other a from Israel, Judah not Benjamin, the tribe of the Wolf, Saul, "sheeping" as Paul. The best evidence is the NT itself as Paul was not a good person, just read his words, pro slavery, a murderer who never repented, and ultimately usurper of Jesus' movement.

So a Warrior and Priestly Messiah were expected by the Jews in this time. The Oracle of Balaam predicted two if I remember, which is who Paul is compared to in Revelation as a "stumbling block" for teaching counter to his promises at the Jerusalem Council about idol meat, a decree of the Holy Spirit, that he called a teaching for the weak.

Saul didn't kill Jesus though, nobody did. He was not crucified as God's Messiah wasn't prophecied as a suffering servant or virgin born, those tales are Roman fabrications, silly pagan myths grafted onto supposed Messianic prophecies that have since been proven not to be Messianic prophecies at all.

Jesus prophecied the end of the world in his generation, supposedly, which never happened and people are HOPING it does today simply to justify their beliefs which must be in question to hope for a calamity just to say "See, Jesus IS real."

Real or not I don't believe he predicted such things at all or he is not a prophet, the evidence speaks he didn't predict that because it didn't happen.

Only other option is he wasn't a Prophet.

Which is another reason I love Islam, because the Gospels don't have to withstand scrutiny, which is impossible, and the Qur'an is essentially a Midrash on the Bible and is also Wisdom literature about treating people fairly, that they don't want us to have our own religion, but we do and they will STILL go to Heaven based on the Judgement of God as long as they are sincere.

Rome has claimed for 2,000 years, Christianity period, that the Jews killed Jesus. Only in the Gospel of Peter is Herod actually assigned blame, whichever one.

Most Jews were in Alexandria and still in diaspora at the time and could not have been involved.

The scam was to place the blame on the Jews for killing their Messiah so the theology of Jesus could be dismissed and replaced with that of Paul.

A writer of anti Semitic epistles that claim Rome was the new Chosen One's. Or Christians. They loved to talk about persecution but were THE most persecutory themselves, so that seems to be a ploy as it was the Jews who were persecuted and evicted from Jerusalem and eventually Rome.

Which is why I believe Jewish Nazarenes and Ebionites became Islam. Epiphanius writes about them after Nicea that the Ebionites rejected Paul and used the same Gospel as the Nazarenes and rejected Paul.

Remove Paul from Christianity and call it Islam, the closest religion to the true Nazarenes and Ebionites, the true disciples, in the world today.

And we love Issa(PBUH). Our Qur'an follows many secret or Apocryphal traditions about Mary being raised in the Temple and has more information on her than the New Testament.

 

[SethZaddik]

No, I just know the right time and place -- a simple point you seem oblivious to.

No, you called me a liar.

What did I lie about?

Nothing. Which means that as I said you mock facts you don't like out of ignorance. Of course you don't say which specific thing I said that was allegedly wrong, just said it was.

How scholarly. I see now why you said it, you just don't know the facts, don't like them.

Facts, however, they will remain. And I know what I said so don't pull a theory from a different comment than the one you originally responded to, calling me a liar sans rebuttal, and try claiming that was what you were actually addressing.

Don't you have the internet? Of course.

So let's debate. Why don't you do your homework first though, I don't want to be an intellectual bully.

Which is how it will look in the end, your game is weak, knowledge sub par.

 

[SethZaddik]

That is true, as it is was for Christians who loved Jews and had nothing to with anti-Semitism. However there was only a relatively small group of Jews in Judea who responded positively to Christ's message. There was a small minority of Christians who stood up to Hitler. This was insufficient to affect the actions of both Nations. Serious consequences inevitably followed.

Actually, there were a ton of Nazarenes and Ebionites who were declared heretics for either rejecting Paul, the virgin birth and divinity of Christ.

Like the rest of the heretics and Gnostic Christians they were eliminated, by the word or by the sword.

Leaving Rome with the ability to claim Apostolic succession. They lasted until approximately the rise of Islam and probably saw their religion in it and converted for safety against Catholic Inquisition.

 

[SethZaddik]

This is so rife with error that it is laughable. Invention upon lie upon ignorance selectively reading history and playing the victim card. If that works for you, keep on trucking. But why you think it is appropriate in any discussion of religion is beyond me.

Blank accusation is a perfect description of this and your following comment.

So you can call me a liar or rife with error but can't say how, why or about what?

That obviously means you don't know the facts, the only reason to call them error. Unless you're a liar.

Either way I am not a liar and DO know the facts, unlike you with your troll comments with no information whatsoever.

Just accusations, insults and excuses. Sorry, but right time, right place is NOT a retort for me calling you out on your lack of knowledge.

Not a single facts to counter what I said because they don't exist, what I said is a fact. If you knew better and could prove otherwise you would Google it and do so. It would not be your knowledge, and easily could be propaganda, which is why I read books.

Nobody filtering out inconvenient facts in books, the same books scholars use are in the public domain and online.

Not my fault you don't read.

 

[Tumah]

The Tanakh is too old, even as a Muslim I love my Zohar-Sets more than the Bible.

And I like cake more than I like plastic bags. But I'm not sure I'd normally make any comparison between the two.

...I always forget to add my (PBUH's), it's been a year since I converted and I am still getting used to it and learning about my new religion which is to me what Jesus religion should have been, were it not for Paul I don't know if Islam would still exist or have a reason to reject R.C.

Israel needs to stop thinking it is God's gift to the world, that it can steal Palestinian territory without being opposed to God Himself and never pay a price.

Wow! Only a year? You're turning totally unrelated religious debates into political ones like a Muslim from birth!

All my rambling ties back into the thread as we need to stop searching for a heavenly Soter or a human Messiah and Israel needs to stop thinking it is the Messiah, it is insane and has never helped the Jewish people at all.

Aside from this OP, can you cite evidence that Jewish people consider themselves the Messiah?

Muslims need to love their enemies, as even Mohammed would say return evil with good.

If everyone did this evil "Sitra Ahra" would pass away.

I don't see how[wrongly] using Jewish phraseology to emphasize your case, is supposed to help.

 

[SethZaddik]

It isn't just racism, it is a lack of education; the Biblical deity YHVH Elohim was given his own nation, by the God Most High (El Elyon)...

The people have forgotten they were originally henotheistic, thus they think they're the chosen ones of the whole world now, when originally they were chosen as YHVH's people.

There is no chosen people, henotheistic is a modern term but the correct word is paganism. Canaanite mythology gave us the names El, Asherah/Athirat, Baal and the term Elyon or Most High.

Israelites worshipped Baal, Shemash, and a host of God's at different times and places, the Bible is clear about this. Asherah was worshipped in Temple until Josiah.

They didn't forget anything, they know this better than anyone. They also didn't become NOT chosen as they never were in the first place. That is extremist to say the least.

You and the Jews, you got no respect and obviously think your religion is the only true religion in the world.

I don't believe it is. I think all religions are equally valid, and I am a scary Muslim (Gasp!).

What's that say about Christianity. Find me a soul that believes this outside of Catholicism (see:Vatican ll) and Unitarianism that will say that.

Meanwhile as I mentioned the Sufis use all kinds of scripture in their rituals while Christianity has hung its hat on fundamentalism.

Judaism has Kabbalah, Christians have...Paul.

I feel for you on that one. It's one reason I converted to Islam from Christianity. The other was people like Trump, and Trump's own rhetoric pandering to biggoted.

And it was the best decision I ever made. Seeing Americans with "We are all Muslims now", some Christians I would bet, though not fundies.

I can only thank God for that, Trump is opening eyes, people are waking to the lies they once assumed were true

 

[SethZaddik]

And I like cake more than I like plastic bags. But I'm not sure I'd normally make any comparison between the two.


Wow! Only a year? You're turning totally unrelated religious debates into political ones like a Muslim from birth!


Aside from this OP, can you cite evidence that Jewish people consider themselves the Messiah?


I don't see how[wrongly] using Jewish phraseology to emphasize your case, is supposed to help.

You don't have to. I can use whatever words in whatever language I want. I read Zohar and like Judaism.

Not a big deal or something to hurt my point. If you know what it means you get it, and I was talking to a Jewish person, didn't really question if it would hurt anything because it's two words, just basically displaying my knowledge, nothing wrong with that

I know Jewish people, many at least, believe that Israel is the Messiah.

Now you don't, which isn't my fault, you have access to the same info I do, go learn.

I didn't turn this into anything, that was else responding to my quote with lies that naturally are no longer an issue and said person has quit bothering me because they know it.

I made a peaceful statement, and defended myself after being harassed about lies regarding Mohammed (PBUH).

Your opinions don't concern me.

Your obvious bias towards Muslims does, I think you have more than just bias, tbh.

Bias operates on a hate first, be honest second, mentality.

Exactly what you did. Forget truth, facts, honesty or knowledge of history, I'm always going to be the one whose fault it is just because of my religion.

I don't see you bothering who bothered me with lies about my religion and its Prophet, Mohammed (PBUH).

Just me and anything you can find to bug me about.

I used two Jewish words, I should be stoned.

I turned this political (see for yourself, it wasn't me) and have no right to respond when people lie about my people.

It's somehow relevant how long I've been a Muslim too for some reason.

Seriously? I always was, I just didn't KNOW it until a year ago. So maybe that is why your psychic abilities picked up on my "dubious Muslim politicising."

Because I have always done (or tried to do) God's Will. Which is what makes someone a Muslim.

I took Shahada last Jan 1, 2016 and only on the internet does anyone seem to think it a good reason to bash me, go ahead.

Makes me stronger.

 

[SethZaddik]

And I like cake more than I like plastic bags. But I'm not sure I'd normally make any comparison between the two.


Wow! Only a year? You're turning totally unrelated religious debates into political ones like a Muslim fro
I don't see how[wrongly] using Jewish phraseology to emphasize your case, is supposed to help.

I love how it's my fault that someone else decided to slander Mohammed(PBUH) only for the fact that I mentioned he was the source of the quote, "Return evil with good."

I can tell you right now that murder is as much a sin in Islam as in any religion and that persecuting Jews was not something he did or any Muslim literature (Qur'an or Sunnah) espouses, so to return my quote with a question like: "Was that before or after he killed 8-900 Jews for refusing to convert?'' something forbidden in the Qur'an, and basically an off the top of the head lie or second hand lie, is wicked and not my fault.

People should not lie.

I wonder if it's because I am Muslim that you are acting foolish, I guess that gives you the right though, huh? We don't count, aren't human, is that it?

I'm a pacifist and don't care about politics. I also hate lies and liars. If you are so concerned about the thread staying on topic then wouldn't it make more sense not to message me... if you truly cared?

If someone says something to me about my topic relevant comment, and I responded, I didn't derail the thread, they did.

Which is exactly what happened. Thankfully God has given me knowledge to deal with such frauds.

Like you.

 

[Tumah]

Because a Messiah doesn't steal land from people who have no quarrel with them thinking God says it is OK.

I know! I just wish someone would have told the invading Muslims that back in the 7th century. Don't you agree?

Or engineer wars, spread propaganda about Palestinians and get away with it.

Satan, Samael, Belial, Mastema, Asmodeus, Lilith, do things like that.

Can you prove that?

I add also, there were Jews in Palestine from before WW1 longer who were peaceful with the Palestinians and exchanged gifts for each other's Holy days, like it was before the Crusades only less Christians and more Malaria. Which was impossible before Islam as Rome occupied Jerusalem and didn't get along with Jews at all.

The Muslims conquered Israel from the Byzantines, who got it [back] from the Sassanids. The Byzantines weren't the greatest, but the Sassanids weren't that bad.

I'm not sure what the poor Byzantines did to deserve being conquered by Muslims on the way to conquering Syria. I don't know what the poor Syrians did either.

I don't know how Europe lost Jerusalem but Palestinian Muslims got it back,

That's kind of a vague statement. Are you talking about how Byzantine Europe lost Jerusalem to the conquering Muslim army? Are you talking about how Christian Europe lost it during the Crusades to the Muslims? Are you talking about how the European British lost it when they handed it over to the Jews?

and you were welcome again,

Honestly, that's heart warming. The conquerors who conquered our land from our conquerors conquerors are warmly welcoming us to live with them. So sweet.

as you were in Iraq/Babylon during Masoretic times and in Turkey in Svi's time. And everywhere else in the Arab world for that matter.

Except for that time we were expelled Muslim controlled Morocco and Spain. Or that other time where we were expelled (or forced to undergo conversion) from Isfahan, Persia. And of course, all the Jews that fled or were expelled from Muslim countries in the 20th century.

Its probably best not to live in a fantasy dream world. Let's not forget about the Almohads. Let's also not forget the Zaydi's Orphan Decree and the Pact of Umar. The Granada Massacre. The Moroccan mellahs.

Probably best if you just read this brief history. And this one.

You were taken in after WW2 with no complaints

Taken in? You mean by the British...?

as there was a good relationship between Muslims and Jews then.

Is that what you think? Have you not heard of the Hebron Massacre of 1929 and the events leading up to it?

You went from being refugees to creating them in Palestine with the 6 days war.

You mean the pre-emptive war that Israel fought with Egypt. Maybe it would have been better if Egypt didn't plan an attack?

A nation that took your people in whose people always wanted to be friends with your people and were, almost all of the time,

No seriously. What fantasy are you living in? It was the British that "took us in". Friend in Arabic is rafiq not dhimmi.

Roses are nice, but let's not paint a picture that's too rosy.

up until you "Messiahs"

Messiahs?

annexed and continue to annex, Palestine.

Are you talking about capturing the Golan Heights from Syria the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, Sinai from Egypt?

You want more land and settle in violation of treaties on occupied Palestinian territory.

Violation of which treaty? What occupied Palestinian territory are you talking about?

Your own people have blown the whistle about covert activities again and again, atrocities committed against Palestinians, unprovoked and unjustifiable.

All that means, is that two wrongs don't make a right. Right? I mean, we don't need to discuss all the Palestinian terrorist activities against Jewish/Israeli civilians far from any borders who certainly did not provoke or justify the atrocities committed against them

You want to be Messianic, Palestine, give it back and say sorry we stole your land that you let us live in anyway, and stay as citizens of Palestine.

Give it back to whom? The Romans? The Byzantines? The Seleucids? The Muslims? The British? Which conquering power should "get it back"?

THAT would be a Messianic deed and change the world for the better in more ways than anything I can think of.

Can you explain what would be "messianic" about that?

 

[wizanda]

You and the Jews, you got no respect and obviously think your religion is the only true religion in the world.

Understand the negative responses some people give, and thus the lashing out isn't really even directed at me... Yet do be-careful, as i don't fit into any earthly religion.

There is no chosen people

This isn't completely correct, those who are following Yeshua (Isa) in both the Quran (3:55), and the Bible, are the ones who shall remain on the guest-list for the Messianic age.

Thus those truly seeking to be enlightened in Oneness; are those who will remain after the Tribulation soon.

 

[rosends]

Fine. If you want this to be political, I will engage. Let's take a look at what you said. I'll point out where your inventions and lies are. Now, you can feel free to defend them or whatever you want -- I still think that a religion forum is not the place for it, but you are pressing the issue, so here's the breakdown of your complete breakdown. I invite you to take this somewhere more appropriate and try to do some background reading before you spout off again.

You won't listen, but I'm trying to be reasonable in the face of your intransigence.

I add also, there were Jews in Palestine from before WW1 longer who were peaceful with the Palestinians

Mistake 1. Before WW1 there were Jews who were Palestinian. Your mistake here is establishing 2 distinct groups.

and exchanged gifts for each other's Holy days, like it was before the Crusades only less Christians and more Malaria. Which was impossible before Islam as Rome occupied Jerusalem and didn't get along with Jews at all.

Here the mistake is in the whitewashing. Violence against Jews in the region at the hands of Arabs is well documented, even before WW1.

I don't know how Europe lost Jerusalem

This isn’t so much a lie as it is an admission of a baseline ignorance.

but Palestinian Muslims got it back,

Another problem – the “Palestinian Muslims” never existed as a ruling power. After the Ottoman Turks, the British took over.

and you were welcome again, as you were in Iraq/Babylon during Masoretic times and in Turkey in Svi's time. And everywhere else in the Arab world for that matter.

You mean as dhimmi. Thanks for that. Do you really think that Jews are welcome in the Arab world? You should look at the dwindling communities, the oppressive laws and the socio-political exclusion. You can start with The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries and feel free to ignore it because you don’t like the source – that will do nothing to change the facts it references. But if your argument is accurate then your position is that might makes right and “getting it back” creates facts on the ground so you just validated Israel’s position as in charge because they “got it back.”

You were taken in after WW2 with no complaints as there was a good relationship between Muslims and Jews then.

Zoinks – really? You mean the British took Jews in and only some of them; the Arabs weren’t in charge during the British mandate. Many Muslims welcomed the Jews and benefitted from their work, but there were also Jews who already lived there so they weren’t “taken in” by anyone. For some light reading, try http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/mf2017.pdf#page=14

You went from being refugees to creating them in Palestine with the 6 days war.

The 6 day war – there was no “Palestine” in 1967 and you should read the Khartoum resolutions to see what the Arab world felt it had to deal with afterwards, and it wasn't anything to do with refugees. As to “creating refugees” in 1967, that wasn’t really what happened.

A nation that took your people in

You mean the rulers of the British mandate who allowed in some people to go along with the people who already lived there.

whose people always wanted to be friends with your people

Ah, that must explain the 1929 Chevron massacre. And Haj Amin El Husseini and his Fedayeen in 1921. And thanks, Yunus Nadi, for your really positive opinion of Zionists!

and were, almost all of the time, up until you "Messiahs" annexed and continue to annex, Palestine.

Annex what now? There never was a country called Palestine. Everyone knows that. There was a country created in 1947/8 called Israel. There were defensive wars and some annexation as a result of defensive wars. Your invention here is obvious.

You want more land and settle in violation of treaties on occupied Palestinian territory.

Another lie. If Israel wanted more land, would it have given up the entire of the Sinai to Egypt? Would it have allowed for the creation of areas A and B under Oslo II? Would it allow the Wakf to control the temple mount? And “occupied Palestinian territory” is another lie. It doesn’t exist.

Your own people have blown the whistle about covert activities again and again, atrocities committed against Palestinians, unprovoked and unjustifiable.

Isn’t it amazing that watchdog groups inside Israel have the freedom to criticize Israel, but in Arab countries, no one seems to call anyone out for atrocities? I was just reading Ambassador Haley’s statement after her meeting with the security council. Fascinating stuff.

You want to be Messianic,

Um, no. Not sure what that even means, let alone how it applies.

give it back

To whom? The British? The Turks? The Mamelukes? The Crusaders? As you said earlier, we “got it back”. Land was partitioned. Land was won in defensive wars. Land was bought and paid for. I know, you don’t like pesky facts, but you can’t ignore them because they make your position untenable. Here, read more http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/mf2017.pdf#page=27

I see that Tumah has done a great job of pointing out many of the same facts as I have so you can feel free to ignore my post, and just respond to the facts he lays out so well.

 

[Tumah]

You don't have to. I can use whatever words in whatever language I want. I read Zohar and like Judaism.

That's cute.

Not a big deal or something to hurt my point. If you know what it means you get it, and I was talking to a Jewish person, didn't really question if it would hurt anything because it's two words, just basically displaying my knowledge, nothing wrong with that

You weren't displaying it so well.

I know Jewish people, many at least, believe that Israel is the Messiah.

The country? The nation?

Now you don't, which isn't my fault, you have access to the same info I do, go learn.

Yes, I have a lot to learn about Judaism.

I didn't turn this into anything, that was else responding to my quote with lies that naturally are no longer an issue and said person has quit bothering me because they know it.

I made a peaceful statement, and defended myself after being harassed about lies regarding Mohammed (PBUH).

A peaceful political statement in a thread about religion? Why?

Your opinions don't concern me.

Oh, here's the original content of this post.

Your obvious bias towards Muslims does, I think you have more than just bias, tbh.

Bias operates on a hate first, be honest second, mentality.

Exactly what you did. Forget truth, facts, honesty or knowledge of history, I'm always going to be the one whose fault it is just because of my religion.

Personally, the number of times I've seen you play the "I'm an oppressed Muslim" card, makes me wonder if you hate having grown up with "white privilege" and are trying to make up for it by "becoming" a persecuted minority. I haven't expressed any anti-Muslim bias because what I disagree with is your opinion. I don't care what religion you are. I have argued much more vociferously against the OP in other threads than I have with you here.

Let's debate instead of playing cards.

I don't see you bothering who bothered me with lies about my religion and its Prophet, Mohammed (PBUH).

Only because I haven't seen it. I've only responded to posts that mention Jews or Judaism, which you did. But I started viewing the thread from the last page and worked by way back when a post caught my eye and lead me to you. I get that you're new to being a minority, but relax.

Just me and anything you can find to bug me about.

I used two Jewish words, I should be stoned.

Oh? Do you live in the KSA then?

I turned this political (see for yourself, it wasn't me) and have no right to respond when people lie about my people.

If you feel that you didn't, then wouldn't the correct reply be linking me to the post that did turn it political? I'd be happy to correct myself? No need to start playing this card game.

It's somehow relevant how long I've been a Muslim too for some reason.

It seems to be.

Seriously? I always was, I just didn't KNOW it until a year ago. So maybe that is why your psychic abilities picked up on my "dubious Muslim politicising."

Connection?

Because I have always done (or tried to do) God's Will. Which is what makes someone a Muslim.

I took Shahada last Jan 1, 2016

Why are you telling me this?

and only on the internet does anyone seem to think it a good reason to bash me, go ahead.

Makes me stronger.

Welcome to the internet.