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Featured The Christian Dark Ages of Europe

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by sooda, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The period of time between 460 AD and 1100 AD looks pretty rough to me.
     
  2. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, due to the vast migrations of people from the East: Ostrogoths, Visogoths, Lombards, Vandals, etc., many of them propelled from their former localities by the Huns, who arrived in their turn eventually. It would be perverse to attribute the upheavals of this period to the church, when it was principally due to the arrival of these non-Christian invaders.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Who was slaughtering heretics and burning witches?
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Between 460 and 1100? I'm not sure anybody was.

    Are there any records of this being widespread at that time?
     
  5. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    How do you confuse Rome, which pushed the Dark Ages along, with Reformers, who led us to Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, while only noting the bad Christians and not the true Christians.

    . . . Oh, I understand your confusion, come to think of it.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That's pretty much true of all churches historically, so the CC certainly had no monopoly on this.
     
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  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Exactly, and it often is a form of a certain type of religious bigotry, especially when someone only points out the negative and not cites any of the positive.

    I grew up in a fundamentalist church whereas we heard repeatedly about the "evils" of Catholicism, so imagine my parent's chagrin when I decided to marry a very devout Catholic woman. My father had even told me several years before that if he ever heard of me attending a Catholic church he's kick my a**, and that was the words he used.

    Now maybe some here can understand why I get quite upset with the anti-Catholic bigotry that we run across here at RF with a few people, no names implied.
     
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  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The above is a prime example example of my last post.

    Maybe do some serious studying instead of making blanket condemnations of a particular denomination while refusing to look carefully into your own. Matthew 7[5] You hypocrite! First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye.
     
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    No need! I'm a nondenominational Christian.

    Besides, as we discussed, you feel the Bible is descriptive, not proscriptive, so Rome "is just alright with you".
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's "interesting" that you think you know exactly what my approach is with the scriptures instead of actually asking me.

    The Catholic Church is not "Rome" but is found on every continent, thus "Catholic" meaning "universal". At every single mass there are at least three readings from the Bible, plus the homily (sermon) must reflect the readings. All prayers are directed to God the Father. Canon Law has it that no Church teaching can be in opposition to the Bible or early Church traditions put forth by the apostles.

    And yet the above is not good enough for you to the point that you feel some sort of need to demonize the Church, thus causing division that Paul warned us not to do or to heed. If you disagree with some teachings of the Church, that's all fine & dandy as I don't believe in certain things the Church teaches as well. But to condemn an entire Christian denomination is in violation of what Paul taught.

    I'm not fond of some of the teachings within the JW ranks, for example, but I don't condemn them, especially since most of their teachings I do agree with.

    Jesus taught us to love one another, and Paul taught us not to cause division, so this is a mandate that I believe we all should follow as Christians.
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I have discussed the scriptures with you numerous times. You agree with Rome--the scriptures are descriptive, not proscriptive--thus we can understand the universalist brotherhood you are preaching, while being an adherent to a group that says all outside the group are inferior and not in the true church.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Jesus and the apostles were the ones that determined which was the "true Church", and this is made abundantly clear in Acts and some of the epistles. Paul refers to it as being "one body" and warned of those who might cause division. The Catholic Church is extenuation of that "one body" since there was at no time an end point from the early Church through til today.

    As one who grew up in a Protestant church and who was considering going into the ministry, imagine my surprise when I did the research, mostly using Protestant and secular historical sources, btw.

    The issue of "inferiority", depending on context, may be misleading. In Catholicism, all people are important, thus there is no inferiority as far as one's personhood is concerned. As a Catholic, I am not any better than you or one who's an atheist. Nor is it believed that anyone who is not Catholic is somehow condemned and cannot possibly go to heaven.

    Pretty much all Christian denominations consider themselves to be at least part of the "true church", and they tend to believe and teach that they have more of the right answers than other denominations. Matter of fact, Catholicism is often condemned, such as what I repeatedly heard from the church I grew up in. And we've often even seen there here at RF. A couple of years ago I almost left this site in disgust as there were seven largely anti-Catholic threads going at one time. And by "anti-Catholic" I don't mean questioning some teachings of the Catholic Church, which I do all the time, btw.
     
  13. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Help me understand. You don't want me to be preachy, judgmental or sectarian in any way, but you do want to tell me over and again that I'm not in the true church, established by Jesus and Peter, meaning.

    Further, the true church would have the true doctrine, including scripture with an "s" and Tradition with a "T". The Bible disagrees, and constantly condemns the doctrines of Rome. I'm not anti-Catholic, I'm pro-people, and I understand the difference between works-based salvation and trusting Christ.
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    At one point, Jesus was approach and was told that someone else was preaching in his name. Did Jesus condemn them or their actions? The answer is "no".

    So you're the one who defines what "true doctrine" is? No one else's interpretation is important or maybe even more spot-on?

    Secondly, if you reread the "Sermon On the Mount", and then reread the "Parable of the Sheep & Goats", what you will repeatedly see is that our behavior is extremely important and part of what we'll be judged on. If one truly is "trusting Jesus", they'll do what he says and not just sit in a rocking chair having nice p.c. thoughts.

    Our daily mass goes like this: songs praising God; prayers to God; three or four readings from the Bible; a homily (sermon) on the readings; Eucharistic (communion) prayers; receiving the Body & Blood of Christ; and then concluding with final prayers and songs. Which of these applications of the "doctrines of Rome" do you resent and think are anti-Bible?

    You claim not to be "anti-Catholic", but your posts simply don't bear this out. In terms of what I've continually seen you post in relations to the Church, you condemn but never praise.

    BTW, you frequently mention the Bible, but are you aware of how the canon that you probably use was chosen and by whom?
     
  15. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    There wasn't really such a thing as 'The Renaissance', early modern period makes far more sense. Much of Europe hadn't even been part of the classical world in the first place, so there was no 're'.

    These 'Dark Ages', Enlightenment' periodisations are responsible for many of the popular misconceptions about Western European history.

    The increase of access to Graeco-Arabic philosophy did have a whole load to do with the church though. Translation movement, university system etc.

    Friars and clerics are disproportionately visible among those who contributed to the development of moral and natural philosophy/science in Europe, and even more gained an education that in some way related to the church.
     
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  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The burning times: The Christian extermination of Witches ...
    www.religioustolerance.org/wic_burn2.htm
    The Witchhunt timeline: Circa 1550 to 1650 CE: Trials and executions reached a peak during these ten decades, which are often referred to as the "burning times.". They were mostly concentrated in eastern France, Germany and Switzerland. Witch persecutions often occurred in areas where Catholics and Protestants were fighting.
     
  17. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    I do praise Rome for being strong on family values and anti-abortion.

    I don't resent what you posted other than claiming Rome has the only Eucharist (which they withhold from "separated brethren"). If I need Rome's Eucharist to truly have fellowship with the Christ, why can't I take it, again? Because I'm in a false church, is that not so?

    The real problem, Rome has a different gospel than the Bible. You've forgotten the last time I read through the Sermon on the Mount was at Mount of the Beatitudes (Catholic!) Church in The Galil, the difference is I see the Sermon as a proof that people don't keep the Law and need Christ's atonement, you read it as a checklist to get into Heaven, which means--you don't need Christ at all to get into Heaven. Can you explain THAT for me?
     
  18. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. So no records of this during the time we are talking about.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Many churches refer to the Eucharist as "communion", and that word means and implies "community". When groups split from the Church, they no longer were or are in "communion" with it.

    False. The Church teaches that belief in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is #1, which is why all our prayers, including the Eucharistic prayers, are to God.

    Secondly, the Gospel is what the Church has always taught as being important, and it is an undivided gospel. IOW, to say or imply that part if it is unimportant or of lesser importance is in violation of what Jesus taught and what the Church teaches. It is you, not I, that wants to ignore what Jesus mandated for us in the Sermon and elsewhere, thus trivializing the Gospel. IOW, it's essentially a "package deal" that indicates if one truly believes in Jesus and not just a couple of things about him.

    And for you to say that the Church teaches that we "don't need Christ at all to get into Heaven" is categorically false, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church says as such. Maybe look things up instead of relying on falsehoods-- google can be a good friend if one uses it.

    So, why do you persist in posting falsehoods while claiming to be a believer in Jesus? Why do you keep inventing this garbage, like above? Is this what your church is telling you is moral under Jesus' teachings? If so, then let me suggest you leave it and find a church that teaches the full Gospel-- not just a fraction of it.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Malleus Maleficarum - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
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    Overview
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    The Malleus Maleficarum, usually translated as the Hammer of Witches, is the best known and the most thorough treatise on witchcraft. It was written by the discredited Catholic clergyman Heinrich Kramer and first published in the German city of Speyer in 1487. It endorses extermination of witches and for this purpose develops a detailed legal and theological theory. It was a bestseller, second only to the Bible in terms of sales for almost 200 years. It has been described as the compendium of literature in demonology of the fifteenth century. The top theologians of the Inquisition at the Faculty of Colognecondemned the book a
     
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