The Christian Dark Ages of Europe

[Zita]

Catholicism, Orthodoxy and more traditional leaning Anglicanism teach that salvation is a process that the soul goes through to reach God, not some one-time contractual event, which is a much more recent concept made up by Evangelicals. Following the commands of Jesus is part of the journey of salvation. I've heard it expressed as "I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved", as it is a continuing unfolding event. The original Christians were very mystical and that tradition is retained in much of Orthodoxy.

So, basically, you're looking at the subject completely wrong through a false dichotomy.

Would you please give me the definition of saved in religious meaning?

 

[Zita]

Probably because a lot of it isn't true. Same with the "burning times" myth that some modern Neopagans clang to as an origin story.

 

[Zita]

Probably because a lot of it isn't true. Same with the "burning times" myth that some modern Neopagans clang to as an origin story.

Wow are you serious, you obviously do no research at all, do know how many different material there is on this subject , you can go to any Library and find hundreds of books, I've been there and read at ,book stores have history sections you can read about it-now we have the wide world of internet with thousands of material,Famous Historians from various colleges that would love to send you info. on it.Smithsonian has an area displayed with much info and pamphlets to handout not to mention the History Channel that periodically air tv programs to show information on it.

all these sources saying these happenings are true , and guess what many of them have some kinds of proof not just worlds, but all over the world you will find these resources explaining the accuracy ,timelines and all, come on all these thousands of people who have spent their life researching, finding ,reporting ,writing,posting,teaching!!!! are not lieing or making up crap, that's a lot of work to lie, and come on "if it walks, looks,sounds like a duck!! It''s a duck. and the same information coming fropeoplem all over the world who don't even know of each saying the same thing is not possible unless it's the truth.But you know what? if you are fine being a little less knowledgeable than the majority of people,then it's cool with me, I won't say another word on it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow are you serious, you obviously do no research at all, do know how many different material there is on this subject , you can go to any Library and find hundreds of books, I've been there and read at ,book stores have history sections you can read about it-now we have the wide world of internet with thousands of material,Famous Historians from various colleges that would love to send you info. on it.Smithsonian has an area displayed with much info and pamphlets to handout not to mention the History Channel that periodically air tv programs to show information on it.

all these sources saying these happenings are true , and guess what many of them have some kinds of proof not just worlds, but all over the world you will find these resources explaining the accuracy ,timelines and all, come on all these thousands of people who have spent their life researching, finding ,reporting ,writing,posting,teaching!!!! are not lieing or making up crap, that's a lot of work to lie, and come on "if it walks, looks,sounds like a duck!! It''s a duck. and the same information coming fropeoplem all over the world who don't even know of each saying the same thing is not possible unless it's the truth.But you know what? if you are fine being a little less knowledgeable than the majority of people,then it's cool with me, I won't say another word on it.

Witch hunts happened, but the numbers and circumstances tend to be greatly exaggerated in pop culture.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Would you please give me the definition of saved in religious meaning?

To Christians, it would be salvation from hell and communion with God.

 

[exchemist]

The Middle Ages was a particularly violent and bloody period in English history. The Middle Ages is a period that is full of warfare and violence, and in this article we will look at some of the most notable wars.

Notable Middle Ages Battles

There are a number of key battles and campaigns during the Middle Ages. These include:
Written by Simon Newman

History - Middle Ages

• The Battle of Hastings
  
  
• The Crusades
  
  
• The Barons War
  
  
• The Hundred Years War
  
  
• The Wars of the Roses

These battles, although bloody, led to key developments in technology, weaponry s well as advancements in both defensive and offensive structures and weaponry, changes to law and much more.

Yes, but this has nothing to do with witch burning, which is what sooda was referring to (in post 60) and which I was responding to.

(By the way when you cut and paste material, it is good practice to cite the source you are copying from.)

 

[Zita]

Yes, but this has nothing to do with witch burning, which is what sooda was referring to (in post 60) and which I was responding to.

(By the way when you cut and paste material, it is good practice to cite the source you are copying from.)[/QUOTE

If you will look before the list you will see the source I got that from!!!

 

[Zita]

Yes, but this has nothing to do with witch burning, which is what sooda was referring to (in post 60) and which I was responding to.

(By the way when you cut and paste material, it is good practice to cite the source you are copying from.)

If you look at middle of page before you will see I GAVE THE NAME OF THE SOURCE

 

[Zita]

The First Crusade
Written by Tim Nash

History of War - War in The Middle East

Heresy and Punishment
Witchcraft in the Middle Ages was feared throughout Europe. Magic was believed to be a creation of the devil and associated with devil worship.

Being accused of witchcraft in the Middle Ages meant being labeled as a heretic. If accused of witchcraft, the accused was forced to confess, even if he was innocent, through brutal torture. Then he was hanged or burnt alive for his crimes. Laws against witchcraft were further tightened when they began to be used for personal vendettas against the accused or in order to gain property of the accused.

The accusations were arranged by influential persons in society or the clergy who would bring about the suspicions against those they wanted to target. They then arrested their victims, made them confess, and executed them. Almost 80% of those accused of witchcraft were women.

 

[Zita]

I never said we shouldn't do or should do anything--in my prior post, I mentioned what Jesus COMMANDS Christians to do!

The issue is salvation comes through Jesus's behavior on the cross, and our trust in Him, rather than our behavior. Consider it this way for a moment? As I understand the gospel IMHO?

No one disagrees with the gospel’s logic of perfection vs. imperfection:

1) Ask someone (outside RF, of course!), “Are you, like me, morally imperfect, and you disobey your inner voice?”

2) After their “Sure!” say “If there’s a Heaven or utopia [long pause] we can’t go! If I hurt your feelings in Heaven or vice versa, it’s not Heaven. How can imperfect people get to Heaven?” People usually respond, “Do you have a solution?”

3) Say “The solution is a person. The Bible explains that Jesus Christ, being God, innocent and perfect, switched places with us on the cross. He died a horrible death by torture to take our sin, guilt and shame, our imperfection. He then rose from the dead, and as the Bible says, “God loved the world in this way--He gave His Son [I hold one hand up], so whoever trusts Him [I raise my other hand] shall not perish but has eternal life [I fold the fingers of my hands together].” (Trust is clearer than “believe” for John 3:16.) Put another way, “God made Jesus, who was perfect, to be imperfect [I cross my arms over each other] for us, that we who are imperfect might become as perfect as God.”” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

The logical problems I see (feel free to disagree with me):

1) If you are saying the full gospel includes my own behavior, how many behaviors must I fulfill to be saved?

2) How come most Christians don't do behavior anywhere near the incredible standards of the Sermon on the Mount, for example, someone forces me to march one mile carrying their load, and I smile and walk a second mile voluntarily--is that salvation?

3) Imperfect people cannot live in a utopia, so do we need mere forgiveness from the cross or also, transformation from the cross? If And if so, how much transformation is needed? Because we can be Christians for millennia yet still sin...

OK,you said "Jesus" was sent by God,and he did,and they hung him on the cross,and died and took our sins away.Right?OK,If he took our sins away,then why are we still saying we sin and fall short of the glory of God.and we can't make it to heaven if we sin we we going to hell on judgement comes.Now if all that is gonna happen because of sin then that means "jesus" lied to you. Also I am perfect,I was made in his image and God is perfect,then I am perfect in his sight, so yes, I am perfect and divinely made,now my human nature may not be perfect, I may do something or say something or do something I should not have,but nothing will change the fact I'm perfect and always will be,cause God doesn't make mistakes.(remember)

 

[exchemist]

If you look at middle of page before you will see I GAVE THE NAME OF THE SOURCE

OK, but what is the name of the source then, because I can't see anything on the post that tells us that? Is it "Notable Middle Ages Battles"?

 

[BilliardsBall]

It is not our role to judge that, thus Jesus' statement of "judge ye not...".

What other people may or may not do is not under our control, but I do believe we need to speak up for doing God's will the best each of us can and then let God do the judging.

Again, that's for God to decide.

IMO, it is our role as Christians to lead a moral life as best we can in the light of the Gospel, and to also encourage others to do the same. "Rocking-chair religion", whereas we may believe we're "saved" just because we have some p.c. beliefs about Jesus, is not an option for us if we intend to possibly be saved ourselves, and that is the message Jesus' passed on to us in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats. The "Goats" had some p.c. beliefs about Jesus but didn't put them into action: Matthew 25[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How do you account for your understanding of Matthew 7 coming into conflict with clear statements in both testaments urging Christians to judge? I understand Matthew 7 doesn't say "No one can judge" but rather, have the log removed (salvation) and then look for specks at will.

If you don't want to be specific about what can be done to receive salvation, that must be anxiety-forming.

If you don't know what specifics work best, why do you need the Roman church to administer your sacraments?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, that's miraculous because no one seemed to notice it before Evangelicals came up with it in the past few hundred years or so.

You just do your best to follow the teachings of Jesus and imitate him, and repent when you fail. Don't know what's so hard to understand about this. I must echo @metis' advice that you find a church that actually teaches the Bible since whatever one you're in now obviously doesn't.

My beliefs are in both testaments--the OT predates even Rome by a millennium.

I can direct you to church fathers who believed in ransom theory and etc. but I think that would be a waste of time.

 

[BilliardsBall]

OK,you said "Jesus" was sent by God,and he did,and they hung him on the cross,and died and took our sins away.Right?OK,If he took our sins away,then why are we still saying we sin and fall short of the glory of God.and we can't make it to heaven if we sin we we going to hell on judgement comes.Now if all that is gonna happen because of sin then that means "jesus" lied to you. Also I am perfect,I was made in his image and God is perfect,then I am perfect in his sight, so yes, I am perfect and divinely made,now my human nature may not be perfect, I may do something or say something or do something I should not have,but nothing will change the fact I'm perfect and always will be,cause God doesn't make mistakes.(remember)

Jesus made an offering for sin, a cleansing, a way IMHO.

The offering must be distributed, the cleansing must be received, the way undertaken.

And if you're perfect, perhaps I can introduce you to some people I know seeking perfect spouses?!

 

[metis]

How do you account for your understanding of Matthew 7 coming into conflict with clear statements in both testaments urging Christians to judge? I understand Matthew 7 doesn't say "No one can judge" but rather, have the log removed (salvation) and then look for specks at will.

That is an odd interpretation of that verse as it actually is saying that we should be judging others without possibly falling into hypocrisy.

If you don't want to be specific about what can be done to receive salvation, that must be anxiety-forming.

Not really. I just do the best that I can do and then let God do the judging. If one only believes without doing anything about it and thinking they'll achieve "salvation" through doing that minimum, then they're only doing as such for selfish reasons.

If you don't know what specifics work best, why do you need the Roman church to administer your sacraments?

I don't have to-- I choose to. Jesus demanding some things of us, and it's unfortunate that you just blow them off thinking "I'm saved!". That's called "self-righteousness".

 

[Zita]

Jesus made an offering for sin, a cleansing, a way IMHO.

The offering must be distributed, the cleansing must be received, the way undertaken.

And if you're perfect, perhaps I can introduce you to some people I know seeking perfect spouses?!

from the explanation you just made you don't really know.

 

[Augustus]

In some areas of knowledge, over one thousand years of Human development was lost

Just had a look at that source in the OP, it is shockingly bad. It's basically the debunked Gibbonian/Draper-White conflict thesis myths that have no real degree of support among secular scholars any more.

The thesis retains support among some scientists and in the public[1] while historians of science reject the thesis.[2][3][4][5]
Conflict thesis - Wikipedia

The '1000 years of knowledge' is another contender for "most made up fact in history".

It's a bit like this image, sometimes mockingly referred to as "The Chart" because it's so ridiculous.

After the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church stood as the most stable centre of European power and under its dominant influence science and scholarship was all but destroyed, replaced with Church dogma and doctrine, violently enforced6.

The Christian Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse though...

During this time, the Arab world carried the torch of knowledge

Where do you think the Arabic speakers (it was mostly Persians, etc.) got all of the philosophical texts from which enabled their Golden Age? (hint: Greek speaking Christians, and it was mostly Christians that translated them too)

and a gradual trickle of intellectuals and early scientists emerged from the 12th century. Although they were mostly imprisoned and tortured by Christianity"

Although nobody can ever actually name any of the myriad Medieval scientists who were imprisoned and tortured for their science... Can you?

"Copernicus (1473-1543)21,22, Kepler (1571-1630), Galileo (1564-1642)23,24,25, Newton (1643-1727)26 and Laplace (1749-1827)27 all fought battles against the Church when they published scientific papers that enraged the Church by writing that the Earth might orbit the sun,"

Copernicus dedicated his book to the Pope and his patron was a Bishop. Epic trolling, or....?

" The Ionians discovered the truth about the Sun, the Earth and the stars29, but their era ended when their last great scientist, Hypatia, was attacked by a mob of Christians and burnt in 415CE."

Hypatia was a Neoplatonist philosopher which was as much a religion as it was 'science'. She also wasn't that important a 'scientist', and also was killed during a political dispute rather than because she was a scientist.

Ooh, it actually went there: "The center of science, the Alexandrian Library, was also burnt and destroyed"

It was perhaps burned by Julius Caesar (and maybe a later Pagan Emperor), although it was never as great a library as is often made out (it was a significant library, but not uniquely so).

Somewhat more importantly, it didn't actually exist by the time the Christians were in charge. So, unless they hated science so much they destroyed a non-existent library just to make sure...

 

[sooda]

Just had a look at that source in the OP, it is shockingly bad. It's basically the debunked Gibbonian/Draper-White conflict thesis myths that have no real degree of support among secular scholars any more.

The thesis retains support among some scientists and in the public[1] while historians of science reject the thesis.[2][3][4][5]
Conflict thesis - Wikipedia

The '1000 years of knowledge' is another contender for "most made up fact in history".

It's a bit like this image, sometimes mockingly referred to as "The Chart" because it's so ridiculous.

The Christian Eastern Roman Empire didn't collapse though...



Where do you think the Arabic speakers (it was mostly Persians, etc.) got all of the philosophical texts from which enabled their Golden Age? (hint: Greek speaking Christians, and it was mostly Christians that translated them too)



Although nobody can ever actually name any of the myriad Medieval scientists who were imprisoned and tortured for their science... Can you?

"Copernicus (1473-1543)21,22, Kepler (1571-1630), Galileo (1564-1642)23,24,25, Newton (1643-1727)26 and Laplace (1749-1827)27 all fought battles against the Church when they published scientific papers that enraged the Church by writing that the Earth might orbit the sun,"

Copernicus dedicated his book to the Pope and his patron was a Bishop. Epic trolling, or....?

" The Ionians discovered the truth about the Sun, the Earth and the stars29, but their era ended when their last great scientist, Hypatia, was attacked by a mob of Christians and burnt in 415CE."

Hypatia was a Neoplatonist philosopher which was as much a religion as it was 'science'. She also wasn't that important a 'scientist', and also was killed during a political dispute rather than because she was a scientist.

Ooh, it actually went there: "The center of science, the Alexandrian Library, was also burnt and destroyed"

It was perhaps burned by Julius Caesar (and maybe a later Pagan Emperor), although it was never as great a library as is often made out (it was a significant library, but not uniquely so).

Somewhat more importantly, it didn't actually exist by the time the Christians were in charge. So, unless they hated science so much they destroyed a non-existent library just to make sure...

Not familiar with your chart. I have never seen it before.

I knew about Hypatia and Copernicus and the library at Alexandria, but there does seem to be about 600 years of dead time. Wonder why Copernicus had such a hard time? The Arabs had been using the Kamal for navigation since the 9th century.. so they must have known the earth wasn't flat.

Muslim Spain is not smooth sailing but Jews had their own guilds or joined Muslim guilds.. Translation from Greek into Arabic and Hebrew went both ways. Did Persians mostly speak Arabic back then or were they speaking Urdu or Parsi/Farsi?

Were there a lot of Christians in Muslim Spain.. like Visigoths????

 

[Augustus]

Wonder why Copernicus had such a hard time?

He didn't. The book was dedicated to the Pope after all. He died pretty soon after which led to a myth that he 'only published on his deathbed'.

Muslim Spain is not smooth sailing but Jews had their own guilds or joined Muslim guilds.. Translation from Greek into Arabic and Hebrew went both ways. Did Persians mostly speak Arabic back then or were they speaking Urdu or Parsi/Farsi?

Arabic was the lingua franca, no doubt they also spoke local languages too.

The fact that Greek, Latin, Persian, etc. texts could all be translated into Arabic and read by many people was an advantage

Were there a lot of Christians in Muslim Spain.. like Visigoths????

The conquered populations weren't exterminated, so yes many Christians.

The Greek texts were coming from the former Roman Empire territories that were conquered and the Greek speaking Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire though.

There's a bit of a myth that the Arabs 'saved' these texts, but the Greeks (Byzantines) still had them of course. The fall of Constantinople gave a boost to Western Europe as many Christians fled bringing such texts with them.

Arabic philosophers did make their own advances though which were later translated into Latin along with the Greek texts.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is an odd interpretation of that verse as it actually is saying that we should be judging others without possibly falling into hypocrisy.

Not really. I just do the best that I can do and then let God do the judging. If one only believes without doing anything about it and thinking they'll achieve "salvation" through doing that minimum, then they're only doing as such for selfish reasons.

I don't have to-- I choose to. Jesus demanding some things of us, and it's unfortunate that you just blow them off thinking "I'm saved!". That's called "self-righteousness".

I agree, Matthew 7 doesn't say, "Judge no one!" but says, "Be cautious in judgment, avoid hypocrisy!" I agree with you.

I disagree that it is "selfish" to do things to be saved or to want to be saved. IMHO, it is not selfish to want to miss Purgatory/Hell and live in Heaven, nor is it selfish to believe God and take God at His Word.

Nor do I "blow off doing Jesus's commands because I'm saved." Salvation from Christ's cross is a costly, precious gift to be shared and admired. However, I can accept the concept that it's wrong to think one is already saved, if you can tell me what I can do EXACTLY to have hope of salvation. For example, John 3 says, "God loved everyone in the world in this manner, whoever trusts, has trusted or will trust Christ, is saved."

I trusted Christ years ago for this reason. Once I stopped trusting me for salvation by behavior, and trusted Jesus instead, I was saved. Why is it wrong for me to take clear statements like John 3:16, when over 150 NT verses have some variant of "Trust Jesus, be saved!"?