The Cases Against Scientism

[Kenny]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

Yeah, science is limited, but not religion, right?

 

[Kenny]

Yeah, science is limited, but not religion, right?

No. And I don't think that was the point either. Sounds more like a side-step. IMV

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No. And I don't think that was the point either. Sounds more like a side-step. IMV

Then we agree. There are in effect people, who believe that they can do all of the world with objective reason, logic and evidence. But those can be found among both the religious and non-religious.
BTW you posted in science and religion as a debate.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

What do you consider to be a currently prominent example of "scientism" in society? For example, when educators say that creationism belongs in a religious studies class rather than a science one, is that "scientism"? What about when legislators inform their decisions by the consensus of medical organizations and experts, as in the case of the COVID-19 pandemic? Is that "scientism" or basic prudence in informing one's decision-making concerning substantially critical issues of measurable effect?

 

[Kenny]

Then we agree. There are in effect people, who believe that they can do all of the world with objective reason, logic and evidence. But those can be found among both the religious and non-religious.
BTW you posted in science and religion as a debate.

Because it is the case that science can be like a religion -- blind followers who trust beyond reason. Science can use reason and faith can use reason.

 

[exchemist]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

But do we, actually, see politicians, educators and administrators "dictating right and wrong based on scientism"? I cant think of any examples. Can you supply one of each, to show what you mean by this?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What do you consider to be a currently prominent example of "scientism" in society? For example, when educators say that creationism belongs in a religious studies class rather than a science one, is that "scientism"? What about when legislators inform their decisions by the consensus of medical organizations and experts, as in the case of the COVID-19 pandemic? Is that "scientism" or basic prudence in informing one's decision-making concerning substantially critical issues of measurable effect?

Your 2 examples are different. In my opinion science in part and religion belong in social study, where as other parts of science should be done as science.
For the 2nd we agree.

 

[ChristineM]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

Lewis lived in the first half of the 20th century, what relevance has his views in the realms of modern science?

The internet for example which uses various scientific discoveries that were not eben thought of during his life. And i note you used science to create your OP.

Science does not dictate moral decisions.

What politicians, educators, administrators and yes, preachers dictate is up to them, often based on their own faulty moral standards. You call those faulty standards whatever you want, they are not science although they may use a little science to blind their viewers.

 

[Kenny]

But do we, actually, see politicians, educators and administrators "dictating right and wrong based on scientism"? I cant think of any examples. Can you supply one of each, to show what you mean by this?

yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

A lot of these things has never been claimed by science in Denmark. But maybe elsewhere. Do you have actual links to scientist saying that?

 

[Revoltingest]

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

It's important to note the difference between
science & to be "dressed up" as science.
The scientific method includes continual
challenge, which should ferret out any
cross-dressing between science & myth.
Contrast this with religion, which is about
faith in untestable myths.

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

Science is useful to inform our morality,
but it's not a basis for it. This is because
morality boils down to feelings about our
interactions. This leads to rules.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

Lewis sure seems to be frightened of science.
Regarding the lust for power, religion trumps
both science & magic in pursuit of control
over fellow humans.
Regarding gullibility, religion is the clear winner,
since it requires blind acceptance of scripture.
There is no testing of beliefs, unlike science,
which debunks theories regularly.

 

[Altfish]

yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

You are showing a lot of ignorance here.

1 & 2 were the best ways of slowing spread of the virus to ensure that hospitals were not overrun.
3 Do you have a flu vaccine? Well COVID vaccine is similar, it is not 100% reliable, but it greatly reduces the chances of you getting COVID and the severity of it if you do still get it.
4 The need for a booster was always the case
5 & 6 As I said earlier compare with flu jabs, I don't know about you but I have one of those every year.
7 I don't know about babies and vaccines, perhaps the risk of the vaccine on such a young body outweighs the benefits. I'm sure someone on here will know best.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's important to note the difference between
science & to be "dressed up" as science.
The scientific method includes continual
challenge, which should ferret out any
cross-dressing between science & myth.
Contrast this with religion, which is about
faith in untestable myths.

Science is useful to inform our morality,
but it's not a basis for it. This is because
morality boils down to feelings about our
interactions.

Lewis sure seems to be frightened of science.
Regarding the lust for power, religion trumps
both science & magic in pursuit of control
over fellow humans.
Regarding gullibility, religion is the clear winner,
since it requires blind acceptance of scripture.
There is no testing of beliefs, unlike science,
which debunks theories regularly.

As long as you understand the difference between methodological and philosophical naturalism, we agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

As long as you understand the difference between methodological and philosophical naturalism, we agree.

I understand concepts, but not necessarily
your personal usage of such labels.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I understand concepts, but not necessarily
your personal usage of such labels.

Here:
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia
That is methodological in practice.

The other is that it is a fact the reality is natural.

 

[Subduction Zone]

yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

Nice series of strawman arguments. When one has to do that it demonstrates that they have nothing.

If you don't understand ask questions. Don't use arguments that make you look either ignorant or dishonest.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.

Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.

Before we start, I think I need to pull out the Steven Novella quote:

What do you think science is? There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?

IOW, science is just about trying to answer empirical questions in a rigorous way. It's not applicable to all questions because:

- not all questions deal with empirical knowledge, and
- we don't have good enough information on some empirical questions for our best answers to have enough rigor to be called "science."

Are you focusing on one of these objections (or both) to using science across the board?

... or are you just arguing for less rigor when answering the things that are within the purview of science?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

I thought your religion had a rule against bearing false witness. Did that change?

 

[Kenny]

What do you consider to be a currently prominent example of "scientism" in society? For example, when educators say that creationism belongs in a religious studies class rather than a science one, is that "scientism"? What about when legislators inform their decisions by the consensus of medical organizations and experts, as in the case of the COVID-19 pandemic? Is that "scientism" or basic prudence in informing one's decision-making concerning substantially critical issues of measurable effect?

There are places where science is good. I'm not saying that science is bad. There are times when religion can be bad too.

The issue is, as the post says, when it "encourages gullibility, or a lack of skepticism." that we have problems.

I would hold to the position that COVID was indeed scientism where skeptics were drowned out because "scientists" had spoken. Could it be deadly? Yes. Even the flu can be deadly. But their "whatever I say you need to do, do it or else" was scientism.