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The Cases Against Scientism

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
yes... Covid is a great example.

1) You MUST stay in your homes (because science say so)
2) You MUST wear a mask (no matter if it is just a scarf) because a "scientist" said so
3) You MUST have the vaccine because it will stop COVID - scientist said so
4) OOPS you MUST have a booster because THEN it will stop COVID - science said so.
5) OOPS you MUST have the second booster shot - THEN it will stop COVID
6) OOPS you MUST have the third booster shot...
7) OOPS.... you MUST give your baby who won't die, won't have problems, and doesn't really need it because SCIENTIST said so.

You just showed that you don't understand what the science *actually* said.

In all cases, the science determined that if we do NOT take the steps mentioned, then a LOT of unnecessary deaths would occur. You were also not listening very carefully since the science *never* said 3)---it said that the vaccines would *help* prevent serious illness and reduce deaths. Nor did it say, in 4) that the vaccine would *stop* COVID. It said that the booster would help to prevent serious illness and death. Same for 5) and 6). And in 7), there is also a risk assessment.

These types of things are *standard* prevention against any respiratory disease. The *science* tells us what will happen if we *don't* take certain steps.

Being a decent human being is what says we MUST then take those steps. Science doesn't dictate that we must be decent humans beings. It just tells us what the consequences of our actions will be. We still make the decisions based on our values, not science.

And guess what? People *didn't* do what was necessary to prevent a LOT of deaths and a LOT of unnecessary deaths occurred and *are still occurring*.

Don't blame scientism for that. Blame those that ignore the *advice* that science gives for the consequences of our actions.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
There are places where science is good. I'm not saying that science is bad. There are times when religion can be bad too.

The issue is, as the post says, when it "encourages gullibility, or a lack of skepticism." that we have problems.

I would hold to the position that COVID was indeed scientism where skeptics were drowned out because "scientists" had spoken. Could it be deadly? Yes. Even the flu can be deadly. But their "whatever I say you need to do, do it or else" was scientism.

And the *science* was that COVID was much more deadly than the flu. But people ignored that. it said that the consequences of NOT taking basic precautions would be a LOT of unnecessary deaths. People didn't take the precautions and those deaths occurred.

The 'skeptics' were NOT people who knew enough to make a scientific judgement about what would happen. Instead, they were people who were arguing that the disease wasn't that bad, or that not many people would die. We see the results of that misinformation.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Scientism is the word used by people who want their faith-based proclamations about reality taken more seriously than empiricists take them. Their complaint is that some place too much emphasis on science or have an excessive trust of it, but I hear them as saying that they want their religious proclamations taken seriously, and religion recognized as a legitimate path to truth not accessible to science - a nonoverlapping magisterium.

Critical thought rejects all of that and its claims of truth for itself, which is the source of the objection. I'm a typical empiricist who has been accused of this on these threads, and I never make (nor read except from theistic apologists misrepresenting people like me) the claim that science can answer all questions. The empiricist's position is more nuanced than that, but the theist is correct that he rejects all claims that are based in faith. Thus, there is not an excessive reliance on science - what would that even look like? - just no reliance on faith.

Both science and magic can function as a religion.

How about religion? Can it function as a religion? Apparently, that's a bad thing to Lewis, or why would he be bringing it up in a criticism of science?

Lewis makes the same mistake as most other apologists, who have a double standard for their beliefs and science and think nobody notices. I was just on another thread where a creationist was explaining that abiogenesis is a faith-based hypothesis. His worldview is a faith-based hypothesis. Lewis is doing the same - attempting to undermine the confidence in science by calling it religion-like, a laughable type of apologetics. From Amanda Marcotte:

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes."

And no, Mr. Lewis, science does not function as a religion. Christianity does. Science doesn't invoke magic. Christianity does, and it's very jealous of competing magic, hence its condemnation of Harry Potter and Ouija boards.

science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society

No, that's the job of religions like Christianity, or so they think. Of course, science isn't making moral proclamations anyway. This is yet another scurrilous attack on science by Lewis. When does he tell us the good parts of his faith-based beliefs, or is his argument only that the alternative, empiricism, is worse? It's like the Republicans today. They have nothing to promote, so all they can do is attack the alternative.

Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.

Science encourages gullibility? But not religion, right? LOL.

This is what I mean about Lewis' apologetics. Like all the rest, he has no argument in support of his beliefs, so his case is to try to undermine the alternative to faith, empiricism. He just keeps attacking it because what else can he do? What can any Abrahamic theist do? What do they have to show to make their religion seem more appealing or correct or useful? Nothing, apparently, or we'd be hearing about that instead - or at least in addition to the dishonest attacks on science.

I would suggest to the likes of Lewis that they just get used to the fact that there is no place in science or critical thought for his religion, and that if he wants it respected, he'll need to present the respectable things that it does. If he wants his religious "truths" respected alongside scientific truth, he'll need to show that they are true. That's not going to happen, is it? Instead, we can expect a steady flow of this kind of dishonest apologetics worthy of no respect.

Scientism is code for "I want respect for my faith-based way of thinking, and I want its unevidenced proclamations to be given equal status and respect as science."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You just showed that you don't understand what the science *actually* said.
The scary bit is that he is - or at least claims to be (since one can never tell on the internet) - the pastor of a church that stayed open through the pandemic. He's making real-world decisions that affect people's lives.

@Kenny - you never have given a straight answer: how many people did you kill? Of your members who survived, how many are still sick?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The scary bit is that he is - or at least claims to be (since one can never tell on the internet) - the pastor of a church that stayed open through the pandemic. He's making real-world decisions that affect people's lives.

@Kenny - you never have given a straight answer: how many people did you kill? Of your members who survived, how many are still sick?
I almost feel that was a bit mean. But then I remembered when I got Covid before there were any vaccines. A coworker caught it too. I am fine. She never went back to work.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I almost feel that was a bit mean. But then I remembered when I got Covid before there were any vaccines. A coworker caught it too. I am fine. She never went back to work.
I have very little sympathy who knew - or ought to have known - what they were doing but chose to make the pandemic worse. I see them pretty much in the same light as Nazi collaborators, only collaborating with an impersonal enemy instead of human beings.

But back on this thread: I just think it's important to remember that for a lot of people, acknowledging the importance of science comes as a package deal with things that can be uncomfortable, like admitting mistakes, losing face, or grappling with guilt over past decisions.

I read the OP and some of the responses in this thread in the light of that realization.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
According to Lewis:

  1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
  2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
  3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.
I agree with #1 but question the other two.

But let's focus on #1 first. Science and religion (=magic) are both dangerous when only understood partially. One major point to understand is the limitations. Without correct knowledge of the limitations one may try to use the wrong tool for a job. You don't use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail and you don't hammer in a screw.
Science and religion reign in Non Overlapping Magisteria. If you don't understand that, you might say that science disproved god or you might say that the earth is 6,000 years old. Both those assertions are wrong.

Do we agree so far?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree with #1 but question the other two.

But let's focus on #1 first. Science and religion (=magic) are both dangerous when only understood partially. One major point to understand is the limitations. Without correct knowledge of the limitations one may try to use the wrong tool for a job. You don't use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail and you don't hammer in a screw.
Science and religion reign in Non Overlapping Magisteria. If you don't understand that, you might say that science disproved god or you might say that the earth is 6,000 years old. Both those assertions are wrong.

Do we agree so far?
Gould was wrong.

Science and religion will only be "non-overlapping" when religion decides to stop making empirical claims.

I'm not holding my breath that this will ever happen.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Lewis lived in the first half of the 20th century, what relevance has his views in the realms of modern science?

The internet for example which uses various scientific discoveries that were not eben thought of during his life. And i note you used science to create your OP.

Science does not dictate moral decisions.

What politicians, educators, administrators and yes, preachers dictate is up to them, often based on their own faulty moral standards. You call those faulty standards whatever you want, they are not science although they may use a little science to blind their viewers.
Concepts can resist time. Logic, a concept of centuries is still have import today.

Science CAN dictate moral decision. Abortion case in point. Science says "it is a fetus", but is it? This is scientism pure and simple.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The issue is, as the post says, when [science] "encourages gullibility, or a lack of skepticism." that we have problems. I would hold to the position that COVID was indeed scientism where skeptics were drowned out because "scientists" had spoken. Could it be deadly? Yes. Even the flu can be deadly. But their "whatever I say you need to do, do it or else" was scientism.

Who did you say was gullible? Who lacks skepticism? It's the anti-vaxxers, although I suspect that by skepticism, you and your source mean the rejection of empiricism (evidence-based thought). That's not what the word means in critical thought. It simply means the unwillingness to believe by faith, the requirement that all received "wisdom" to be empirically confirmed before being believed, or, if that cannot be done, rejected for being insufficiently supported (faith). It's the anti-vaxxer who is gullible and insufficiently skeptical.

Scientism is the position that people put too much trust in empiricism, which implies insufficient trust in its only alternative, faith, or insufficiently evidenced belief. Those condemning strict empiricism - which admits justified belief only and calls nothing else truth - want respect for their alternative path to truth, faith, or unjustified belief. The Covid statistics - death rates, severe disease rates, and long Covid rates (not to mention the rate of bankrupting families and orphaning children) - clearly demonstrate the error of equating faith with empiricism. If anything, shouldn't we be complaining about excessive reliance on fideism - trust in faith as a path to truth - rather than scientism. The empiricists did much better with their truth than the fideists. Where is the truth in faith?

Here are some of the things people believe by faith these days:
  • The Big Lie
  • Vaccines are more harmful than Covid
  • Global warming is a hoax or a natural cycle, not anthropogenic
  • God wants no women to have abortions
  • Electing Republicans will lower gas prices and the rate of inflation
  • More guns will result in less gun violence

And you want to complain about scientism? Those are all very dangerous and harmful ideas. Evidence properly understood contradicts them all and is the cure for all of them. This other way of knowing that others want respected doesn't deserve respect. Actually, it deserves expunging for obvious reasons. Nor does its attempt at undermining reliance on empiricism deserve respect. Look at what happened to those who believed the fideists. Look at what they're doing to the rest of us.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Concepts can resist time. Logic, a concept of centuries is still have import today.

Science CAN dictate moral decision. Abortion case in point. Science says "it is a fetus", but is it? This is scientism pure and simple.


Science is only used to answer scientific questions about the fetus. That is not scientism. The problem is that you appear to have a belief that you cannot justify so you are lashing out at those that oppose you.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Concepts can resist time. Logic, a concept of centuries is still have import today.

Science CAN dictate moral decision. Abortion case in point. Science says "it is a fetus", but is it? This is scientism pure and simple.

And some can't. Ignorance and hatred continues though.

No, science does not dictate anything, it can advise.

Legally, scientifically, and by definition it is a fetus. And i am pretty sure it's right wing politicians who are restricting woman's rights, not scientists
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You are showing a lot of ignorance here.

1 & 2 were the best ways of slowing spread of the virus to ensure that hospitals were not overrun.
.

It reduced effects but it doesn't slow they spread.

Vaccinated, double, triple, quadruple - still get covid.

A lot of ignorance here ;)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It reduced effects but it doesn't slow they spread.

Vaccinated, double, triple, quadruple - still get covid.

A lot of ignorance here ;)
It also slowed the spread. Where did you get the idea that it did not do so? There were all sorts of actions taken that slowed the spread. You should go back to the early news stories of the Pandemic where it hit some of the European countries very hard before they took steps to slow the virus. We were lucky. We only got hit hard in a few cities. In Italy and Spain hospitals were overwhelmed. Something that we avoided here. Do you now how?

And please, never ever claim ignorance of others.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member

The above link says that the CDC changed its position on the possibility that a vaccinated person can carry the virus. How is this an example of "scientism" when it is a direct, unambiguous example of a scientific body changing its position in light of new evidence? This is the diametrical opposite of the blind faith that you claim "scientism" entails.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion

Correct, that was the point. Reduce the curve. Not get rid of it or cure it. Make it so that it can be managed.

For one of your links, yes, as relevant to the USA, in that case you are a basket case. So what? I was lucky that I live in Denmark. What the CDC did in part was politics.
For the 2 other links, you don't understand science.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The above link says that the CDC changed its position on the possibility that a vaccinated person can carry the virus. How is this an example of "scientism" when it is a direct, unambiguous example of a scientific body changing its position in light of new evidence? This is the diametrical opposite of the blind faith that you claim "scientism" entails.
They also quote mined an individual and then complained when what that individual said was made clearer.

I almost miss the days when such misinformation was shut down by the forum.
 
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