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The Cases Against Scientism

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
They also quote mined an individual and then complained when what that individual said was made clearer.

I almost miss the days when such misinformation was shut down by the forum.

Misinformation about the virus is still prohibited. Context also matters, of course.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It reduced effects but it doesn't slow they spread.

Vaccinated, double, triple, quadruple - still get covid.

A lot of ignorance here ;)


:facepalm:

Living in France everyone could download an app. As well as keeping track of your vaccination status and informing you if you have been in contact with an infected person it also provided up to date info on local and national infection rates.
Take a look at admissions to ICU for unvaccinated compared to vaccinated.

Screenshot_20221102-182818_AntiCovid.jpg
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Correct, that was the point. Reduce the curve. Not get rid of it or cure it. Make it so that it can be managed.

For one of your links, yes, as relevant to the USA, in that case you are a basket case. So what? I was lucky that I live in Denmark. What the CDC did in part was politics.
For the 2 other links, you don't understand science.
Yep, I remember the mantra being "flatten the curve". I think that what may be happening is that people are conflating what they want vaccines to do with what they actually do. They make it less likely to catch the disease in the first place. Unfortunately Covid19 is a virus that evolves quite quickly so a vaccine that is over 90% effective in preventing infection in the first place drops to about 30% effective. Not enough to stop the virus, but still enough to slow it. And the vaccine also greatly increases survivability, something that has not been changed by new variants.

I don't know about you, but an increased chance of survival alone is enough to justify the vaccine.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
:facepalm:

Living in France everyone could download an app. As well as keeping track of your vaccination status and informing you if you have been in contact with an infected person it also provided up to date info on local and national infection rates.
Take a look at admissions to ICU for unvaccinated compared to vaccinated.

View attachment 68071
Yeah , but where's your evidence that it works??

Sorry:oops: But it could be staring them right in the face and some people will ignore it.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
It reduced effects but it doesn't slow they spread.

Vaccinated, double, triple, quadruple - still get covid.

A lot of ignorance here ;)
Yes, it does slow the spread ... if you are not leaving home you aren't meeting anyone, so the virus cannot spread. Understand?

I'm quadruple vaccinated and I still got covid BUT I was not particularly ill and I did not die like my idiot mate who refused the jab.

I do not gamble with my life or my families life.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If any person were to treat science as a religion, then they simply do not understand science. To attack science on the basis of how someone may misunderstand science is nonsensical. It's like if I said, "Christianity is based on fairy tales", which also would be nonsensical.

BTW, if one disdains science, then they should get off of RF, as it is applied science that allows you to read & post here.:p
I am not attacking "science". I go to a dentist. I see a doctor.

I don't follow scientism and totalitarianism. Babies now are suppose to have a Hepatitis vaccine. I don't agree. College entrance requires a meningitis vaccine (I was told)... I don't agree.

I agree with polio vaccine. I agree with measles vaccine.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The scary bit is that he is - or at least claims to be (since one can never tell on the internet) - the pastor of a church that stayed open through the pandemic. He's making real-world decisions that affect people's lives.

@Kenny - you never have given a straight answer: how many people did you kill? Of your members who survived, how many are still sick?
Actually I did. You must of missed it. No one died and none are still sick.

Inflammatory statements to prove a point doesn't work nor is it valid :)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I am not attacking "science". I go to a dentist. I see a doctor.

I don't follow scientism and totalitarianism. Babies now are suppose to have a Hepatitis vaccine. I don't agree. College entrance requires a meningitis vaccine (I was told)... I don't agree.

I agree with polio vaccine. I agree with measles vaccine.

Yeah, but that is solely not up to you. The USA is still a variation of a democracy.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
What is Scientism?
In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis
True.

I am super amazed how Corona/vaccin-gullible those on RF are who have the habit to call Religious or Spiritual people gullible
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Of course, the point is "just because science says something doesn't mean you can't be a skeptic or throw away you logic". Before they had vaccines, I had COVID 19 - They said "You still need it" - and then later they found out it is better than being vaccinated. Scientism says "You do it because I said so and I am a scientist."

As i said, science advised, politicians said

And being vaccinated and having covid is better still however the vaccine prevented millions of people getting it in the first place.


Even when there is no data to support it.

Bull, there is lots and lots of data.

People were "fine" if it was a scarf. Does it stop?

Eh? The mask was never meant to prevent you catching the virus, it was meant to prevent you passing infection on to others.

wear-a-mask-to-protect-yourself--others_social-media.jpg

What is effective?

See my graph in my previous post. Looks very effective to me.

So does having covid and then getting it again

And?

How many?

What the **** does it matter how many babies died of covid the fact is some have died.

Not at all... did I say that?

Oh from your op and posts it seems like you don't give a damn
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science CAN dictate moral decision. Abortion case in point. Science says "it is a fetus", but is it? This is scientism pure and simple.

And you see that as a moral decision? It's a scientific fact that it is what is called a fetus - a late-stage conceptus. The morals decision regards the moral status of aborting it. Science tells us what is true, not what is right. Humanists and Christian, for example, do that. Humanists will include scientific knowledge about consciousness and suffering, but don't go to scientists for moral advice. Nor do they offer it.

It reduced effects but it doesn't slow they spread. Vaccinated, double, triple, quadruple - still get covid. A lot of ignorance here

Yes, there is a lot of ignorance there. You refer to excessive reliance on science, but don't know it yourself. First, reduced effect is enough if that's all we got, but it's not. The vaccine diminishes spread. Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected with Covid, and have a smaller virus loas for a shorter time, meaning less virus coming out of their noses and mouths for fewer days.

And it's a little insincere to point to Covid science as your example of excessive reliance on science. It was and still is a nascent science about a novel virus whose characteristics were initially largely unknown. Nobody in the know puts much stock in cutting edge science, since we understand that it will evolve rapidly, is more likely to be overturned by another study than settled science, and recommendations based in incomplete information will evolve with that rapidly accumulating new science.

Before they had vaccines, I had COVID 19 - They said "You still need it" - and then later they found out it is better than being vaccinated.

More misinformation. Do you feel no responsibility to become more educated before spreading your beliefs? Does being right matter to you? Would it matter to you if somebody believed the things you wrote and was harmed? I feel a responsibility to correct you. But I guess that's what "scientism" does to a person.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.
And that will destroy humanity

Science is the study of creation.
Spirituality is studying the Creator

There is no Love in science.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Of course, the point is "just because science says something doesn't mean you can't be a skeptic or throw away you logic". Before they had vaccines, I had COVID 19 - They said "You still need it" - and then later they found out it is better than being vaccinated. Scientism says "You do it because I said so and I am a scientist."

Even when there is no data to support it.

1/ yes, social distancing worked to reduce the spread. - no - if you look at the spread rate - social distancing really didn't do much.

COVID Data Tracker

2/ yes, masks are shown to be effective in reducing the spread of covid and death from covid.

People were "fine" if it was a scarf. Does it stop?

Most face masks won't stop COVID-19 indoors, study warns

3/ yes, the vaccine proved very effective in those who had it

What is effective?

New study: 133x risk of myocarditis after COVID vaccination | Israel ...

355353 - decrease sperm counts

It takes years to find out what is effective and what isn't.

4/ yes, yhe boosters are also effective at reducing covid ans thus saving lives.

So does having covid and then getting it again

5/ ditto.
6/ ditto.
7/ yes babies have died from catching covid.

How many? And was it the main issue or were there physical issues? You might want to check it ou

8) Do you have a problem with medical science working to reduce infection and save lives? Not at all... did I say that? ;)
4. Unless of course you die. Then you're definitely not getting it again. :rolleyes:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Of course, the point is "just because science says something doesn't mean you can't be a skeptic or throw away you logic". Before they had vaccines, I had COVID 19 - They said "You still need it" - and then later they found out it is better than being vaccinated. Scientism says "You do it because I said so and I am a scientist."

Even when there is no data to support it.

1/ yes, social distancing worked to reduce the spread. - no - if you look at the spread rate - social distancing really didn't do much.

COVID Data Tracker

2/ yes, masks are shown to be effective in reducing the spread of covid and death from covid.

People were "fine" if it was a scarf. Does it stop?

Most face masks won't stop COVID-19 indoors, study warns

3/ yes, the vaccine proved very effective in those who had it

What is effective?

New study: 133x risk of myocarditis after COVID vaccination | Israel ...

355353 - decrease sperm counts

It takes years to find out what is effective and what isn't.

4/ yes, yhe boosters are also effective at reducing covid ans thus saving lives.

So does having covid and then getting it again

5/ ditto.
6/ ditto.
7/ yes babies have died from catching covid.

How many? And was it the main issue or were there physical issues? You might want to check it ou

8) Do you have a problem with medical science working to reduce infection and save lives? Not at all... did I say that? ;)
Since when did you become an expert? Once again are you aware of what happened in the European countries that were first hit hard by this disease?

We did not have that happen here. That is because we were lucky, except for New York City, and were able to start such measures before our hospitals were overwhelmed.

You were never promised perfection and yet you demand it. And when the vaccines did what they were supposed to do you and yours denied that they worked. This sort of ignorance and science denial is why the Trump counties where hardest hit by this disease. Among the Republicans the science denial is the highest.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
The scientist said new machine thesis by humans want us burnt to death by machine causes.

Reasoned humans never had metals entering biology....out of natural heavens laws. It's water one living microbiology cell.

Phenomena theist science found metal implants as an attack on human biology. That had stopped as a cold metal formed within skin.

Science theists ism says I'll stop cold metal in human cell...already cooled. I'll heat it up passing as heat not stopped in biology but through biology. I want the metal to enter my machine instead.

Says how am I doing wrong as metal shouldn't be inside skin biology. Is who you are warned about in consciousness.

Which is burning us to death.

Ism. Human biology never had metal in its body cell first.

How a theist takes unnatural AI advices he had already caused by old science and puts a new thesis upon it changing any law saviour.

The ist the ist ism.

Satan..ist.
Satan..ism.

The ist says 1st is myself I'm not any ism. I just thought about it.

Thinks hence I'm holy and safe.

Lied.

Why science by law is first only ever a natural human who thinks. In natural laws human observed.

Isn't a theist who imposes human choices only.

Humans who taught said you broke gods laws. Theist asks why or who is God.

God was explained by humans the saviour of any one type each any separate one...never the same one as body or type.

1 said science was the body of energy mass held in space. Evolution layering was cooling By 0000000.

Yet 0 zero is one type only in law 1.

So misappropriated the term about one...his ism.

Him term thought in self man being.
H IsIs M. His ism.
He proved he theoried falsely about the woman female. Instead said I theory maths as a woman.

Isis.

No man is ever a woman consciously biology or chemically. As type species human is by two.

A man one human by species only said he spoke on behalf of both a man and woman two separate body types and lied.

Now consciousness proves men think they are women....a higher human population than women who think they are men. Changed life biology changed human consciousness.

Biology is heavens living ownership.

As human theists men lied.

Legal position for law of human family stated why no man is God as you are not the body of substances men use in machine sciences. The law legal status.

About ism.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If humans asked why was a theist a human allowed to claim humans were part machine?

Especially when AI scientists claim aliens use metal machines in out of space...first in themes the cosmic past? No earth involved no heavens involved. Direct theme placed.

It's because they claim a human was the alien that created itself into a human via channelled metal transmitters from his machines mass.

That entered our heavens. Said only by baby humans created by human sex. Parents first humans we state were first humans now bone dusts. Proof were not any alien first.

To the human gained skin metal unnatural implant stopped attacking biology.

Father said no man has not ever theoried about nothing. They theoried about everything. Pre notified advice in presence of a human man.

So UFO mass was first sun asteroid cold sun mass converted by our gas cold heavens law immaculate with law womb void vacuum into light.

Said spiritual human thinkers non scientists just advised men.

Who know no human is part machine.

All earths status said by human advice themed by just a human who thinks pretends they know everything. Status in space themes.

So who is given the rights to make false science claims?

Rich human men did first and last.

As they were designer man first.

Now if you knew design first. Built stone cities buildings first. Then you built a metal machine. Shouldn't your adult human father memory advise you? Order of choice man's?

No I sacrificed my conscious body by heavens mass said confess of Sion.

As young man science theist wasn't a father. He theoried science yet he also became an adult father by sex too.

So man today baby man young man father's mind my brother is not present.

You said the non sexual man...baby hadn't invented science.

Adult man before him however had.

Reason it wasn't about genetic human life by human sex. Your baby life human warning.

It was about lost man's human consciousnesss ability not to be enabled to say I think I'm part machine. Baby men born by sex humans.

Advised his mind is gone in thought.

He invented the gain of what he wanted amassed extra transmitters only..not mass. Above us. Increased imagery. Increased voice heard.

He wanted voice to be heard by AI as a theist. His choice exact.

So ism....a man says electricity channels transmits on metals live in the heavens. His owned man's placed scientific thesis that only he invented. A man. A man by his man's control science. Exact.

In exact place. Not only is it insulated..it leaks unnatural electricity amounts traced to bio cancer. In science the state electricity fries you internally. AI man's controlled inventing.

So does hot water burning gases.

Heavens a spirit body taught spiritual a gas said human scientists. Not any theory just by awareness only.

Ism.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member

What is Scientism?

In the modern world, people will believe almost anything if it is dressed up in the name of science. — C.S. Lewis

In his documentary, The Magician’s Twin: CS Lewis and the case against Scientism, John West takes the position that science training does not give someone the right to dictate moral decisions to the rest of society. Yet we see politicians, educators and administrators dictating right and wrong based on Scientism. And people take it.

According to Lewis:

  1. Both science and magic can function as a religion.
  2. Both science and magic encourage gullibility, or a lack of skepticism.
  3. Both science and magic are about the quest for power.
Modern science is much more dangerous than magic. -CS Lewis

Science - knowledge possessed or attained through study or practice. [Websters 1913].

Scientism - The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry. [Amer. Herit.]

I think Lewis had something in his viewpoint.
I think scientism is synonymous with materialism, a mechanistic philosophy of life. Science merely debunks the superstitious elements of religion while religion gives meaning to the life of the scientist.
Science and religion need to stay in their lanes!
"In the mortal state, nothing can be absolutely proved; both science and religion are predicated on assumptions." UB 1955
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Babies now are suppose to have a Hepatitis vaccine. I don't agree. College entrance requires a meningitis vaccine (I was told)... I don't agree.
But why don't you agree? What does the research show on this, and did you actually do any of the research?

BTW, one of my aunts died from hepatitis back in the early 1950's. These vaccines have been around for decades, thus there's no way in the world that the FDA would have allowed them for so many decades now if they were dangerous and not worth any risk.
 
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