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The Brilliance of Pascal's Wager

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
well then.....you don't really have an objection
that you ARE top of the line life form
Your ideas and mode of thinking are foolish. Completely foolish. You're presenting this idiotic false dichotomy, and keep presenting it as if it contains some truth or wisdom. Your activity in this regard is dumb.

Here's the proof. Proof positive that your options are not dichotomous, that one must either:
A. believe that God exists
or​
B. believe themselves to be the "top of the line life form"​

God could not exist, and I could still evaluate any given life form as more "top of the line" than myself (whatever the hell this is supposed to mean - you still didn't clarify, even though I told you this is entirely vague and subjective).

Do you get this? Are you using your brain? I suggest you do if you wish to continue to post and have your words read and understood by others.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Key word in this sentence being "me" - as in you. You're able to state that this bullcrap, ridiculous belief set enables YOU. But that is as far as you can take it unless you verify that it does the same for anyone you want to attribute the same to.
I'm certainly not the only one that finds theism a positive possibility. In fact, it certainly appears that most humans do. But besides that, what works for me, works for me. Why would I need it to work for others before accepting it for myself?
Me? I find belief in any sort of deity very unfulfilling. I don't see the point. It certainly doesn't "enable" me. Especially when I can't help but see ridiculousness and shenanigans from any and all believers who want to claim they have any sort of "truth," while spouting off the most inane, unverifiable blather I have ever heard.
Being that you're in a very distinct minority, you might want to consider WHY it doesn't work for you, when it does work for so many others.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I'm certainly not the only one that finds theism a positive possibility. In fact, it certainly appears that most humans do. But besides that, what works for me, works for me. Why would I need it to work for others before accepting it for myself?
You obviously don't. But with the way you spoke in your post (and given past posts and interactions I have had with you), you VERY MUCH seem to feel/believe that the non- believer is the one being ridiculous, or holding a tenuous/unsupportable position, versus believers, who you seem to feel are entirely justified. Your statement spoke as if it were entirely obvious that religion or "spiritual belief" enables you (and people in general). And the reason I saw this within your post was simple. You followed this:
Or even more importantly, one of these options enables me while the other option does not.
With this:
Why close oneself off to positive possibilities based on a lack of knowledge?
You went from using "me" to using "oneself." As in "everyone"/"anyone."

Being that you're in a very distinct minority, you might want to consider WHY it doesn't work for you, when it does work for so many others.
The first person to realize the Earth was round was also in a very STARK minority at that time. I wouldn't use this "argument" if I were you. It has no real sway with the incredulous. The only people you are going to pull one over on with this kind of shenanigans are the gullible. You must be so proud.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You obviously don't. But with the way you spoke in your post (and given past posts and interactions I have had with you), you VERY MUCH seem to feel/believe that the non- believer is the one being ridiculous, or holding a tenuous/unsupportable position, versus believers, who you seem to feel are entirely justified.
Yes, I think it's foolish to reject a positive possibility based on nothing. It's one thing to simply set the possibility aside because you see no value in exploring it at the present time, But to reject a possibility because it's not a probability is just foolish.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think it's foolish to reject a positive possibility based on nothing. It's one thing to simply set the possibility aside because you see no value in exploring it at the present time, But to reject a possibility because it's not a probability is just foolish.
But I reject it for exactly the reason you say it is foolish not to believe... because your belief seems based on nothing. You don't have evidence! You have proved this by pointing to the popularity of "spiritual" belief. That's the best you have. That's it. The very best you have. And it is nothing.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You obviously don't. But with the way you spoke in your post (and given past posts and interactions I have had with you), you VERY MUCH seem to feel/believe that the non- believer is the one being ridiculous, or holding a tenuous/unsupportable position, versus believers, who you seem to feel are entirely justified. Your statement spoke as if it were entirely obvious that religion or "spiritual belief" enables you (and people in general). And the reason I saw this within your post was simple. You followed this:With this:You went from using "me" to using "oneself." As in "everyone"/"anyone."

The first person to realize the Earth was round was also in a very STARK minority at that time. I wouldn't use this "argument" if I were you. It has no real sway with the incredulous. The only people you are going to pull one over on with this kind of shenanigans are the gullible. You must be so proud.
You don't seem to grasp that it's your "incredulousness" (based on nothing, and providing you nothing) that I find so foolish. And I would still find it foolish whether it was in me, in you, or in someone else.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
But I reject it for exactly the reason you say it is foolish not to believe...
I am not saying, "it's foolish not to believe". I am saying it's foolish to reject the positive possibilities that come with choosing to believe (if they could help you), based on nothing. Rejecting what you don't know, based on what you don't know, is clearly a fool's errand, don't you think? Especially when so many other people are able to make good use of this thing that you're rejecting on the blind.
... because your belief seems based on nothing.
My beliefs, like those of most theists, are based on the logical possibility that a benevolent God exists, on the hope of that possibility being true, and on the results gained from hoping in that possibility through action.
You don't have evidence!
I (we) have positive results. While no one has any "evidence". Not even you. Evidence is irrelevant except that the lack of it allows for the possibility that what we choose to hope in, is true.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let's get back to the OP. Now I can see that a fear of Cthulhu is well placed. And that one might believe in him to avoid Cthulhu hell. The problem is that Cthulhu heaven does not appear to be all that safe either. On a bad day Cthulhu will eat anyone, anywhere. And the slightest offense will set him off. Once, after some bad Taco Bell, he ate half of heaven.

With Cthulhu one is only one tainted taco away from ingestion and digestion.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think it's foolish to reject a positive possibility based on nothing. It's one thing to simply set the possibility aside because you see no value in exploring it at the present time, But to reject a possibility because it's not a probability is just foolish.

Then you're foolish for rejecting Cthulhu.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to grasp that it's your "incredulousness" (based on nothing, and providing you nothing) that I find so foolish. And I would still find it foolish whether it was in me, in you, or in someone else.
I have plenty to present as reasons for my non-belief. Plenty. You actually want to hear it, or are you just hoping to put out there that I have "nothing" to provide and hope I don't protest? I have all sorts of items to present that cast doubt on so many various topics surrounding spiritualism, ideas of an afterlife, or existence of God/gods. Plenty of reasons to cast doubt. I am sure you have hear most of them, but just let me know if you want to hear them again.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I am not saying, "it's foolish not to believe". I am saying it's foolish to reject the positive possibilities that come with choosing to believe (if they could help you), based on nothing.
Not based on nothing. How about the fact that many people have been fleeced/robbed by the very people making the claims that these "positive possibilities" are real and to be anticipated. Without evidence of these "positive possibilities," I feel the chance of getting ripped off or wasting time is just too high to warrant my getting involved. It's much like GAMBLING. You're betting your time or money or both on an outcome YOU CANNOT KNOW TO BE FORTHCOMING. Exactly like gambling. Which is usually considered a vice... especially by many with religious convictions. Hahaha...

Rejecting what you don't know, based on what you don't know, is clearly a fool's errand, don't you think?
No! Not at all! The man who offers to sell you a bridge, sight unseen? You don't know if he really owns the bridge in order to sell it to you. You think it foolish to reject his offer? Or ask him for evidence? Seriously? Listen to yourself. Your mode of thinking is simply not good. This is just an extremely obvious example. There are all sorts of scenarios in which it makes complete sense to reject what you don't know, based on what you don't know. Someone says "Hey, you want to see something cool? Just climb in the back of this van!" You "don't know" what the guy has to show you, you don't know whether he is trustworthy or not, or whether he has bad intentions. And yet you would probably reject him, right? You have absolutely no evidence that he has done anything wrong, or intends you any ill-will. In that moment, you know next to nothing. And yet you would likely reject his offer. Why? Don't you claim it is foolish to do so?

And if you want to try and point to knowledge of other cases where people are abducted - be careful! Because that is the EXACT rationale I gave you for rejecting your claims in the paragraph where I likened your belief to a form of gambling. EXACTLY the same. I have knowledge of cases wherein people who were entirely credulous are the ones who believed the claims you are espousing, and they were taken advantage of in specific ways tied directly to those beliefs.

Especially when so many other people are able to make good use of this thing that you're rejecting on the blind.
I don't see it. There may be some who this applies to, I suppose, but if anything I see my own coping mechanisms and life skills to be multiple magnitudes more superior than those of probably every theist I have ever met. For many of them, their worldview seem to come with a built-in, "blame-game" component when they recognize that either God pulling the strings implies that their misfortunes are, in fact, intended, or they push it off onto the opposing team by claiming some form of "spiritual attack." So many theists I have encountered are all about things like gossip and talking behind people's backs, and relish drama (speaking in tongues, strange movements to music, breaking out in tears, lying about "healings," pushing people over, falling on the floor). I abhor all of that, and find it a detrimental and damaging exercise - also apparently infectious and damns following generations of peoples to the same forms of credulity. For theists who truly seem to believe and accept their ideas as "the truth", all I ever see in that is a bunch of people unhappy with reality as it has presented itself to them, and so they augment it with stories and pretend. And this is a part of the group of people you would instead say have benefited from their make-believe, and are otherwise well-adjusted, wonderful examples of mental health? YEAH RIGHT. Holy crap what a joke.

My beliefs, like those of most theists, are based on the logical possibility that a benevolent God exists, on the hope of that possibility being true, and on the results gained from hoping in that possibility through action.
A good number of them ignoring anything and everything that contradicts the specifics of what they want to believe. So logical.
I (we) have positive results. While no one has any "evidence". Not even you. Evidence is irrelevant except that the lack of it allows for the possibility that what we choose to hope in, is true.
Boy, I do so hope that unicorns actually exist. The "positive possibility" of riding one is simply too great for me to resist. I think I'll just act as if they do exist. Now I am special... like you.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Do you understand the difference between subjective and objective? Do you?

I ask because I said my OBJECTIVE worth (think of it as my "worth" to the universe) is no greater than a stone. YOU may very well prize me above a stone, but that is a SUBJECTIVE assessment. That's YOUR opinion, in other words, and does not affect any ACTUAL "worth" I may have inherently.

Do you understand?
is this a confession?
that you have rocks for brains?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
no wait......I get it

from a parable......you are that precious stone found in a field
and the worker sold all that he owned
to buy the field and the stone within it
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Then you're foolish for rejecting Cthulhu.
That specific conception of deity is irrelevant to this discussion. But I realize you have no other argument to offer but to pit one concept of deity against another, as if depictions and names were the issue, here.
 
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