The Brilliance of Pascal's Wager

[Audie]

The question is which god to believe in and why. Do we believe in the one with the worst hell so that we can avoid that, or the one with the best heaven.

i am an optimist.

Ramen.

I try not to believe in allah. I don’t want to
hang by my hair in eternal fire.

 

[sojourner]

I don't understand what you are saying. Cthulhu is a god worshiped by many around the world. There are several religions dedicated to worshiping him. Now, I'm guessing you immediately dismissed his existence after reading my OP. But what if you are wrong? Then you'd be in some serious trouble when Cthulhu returns to earth from his throne a million miles away. After all, he's an immensely powerful god; much more powerful than us. It would be wise to research the evidence for his existence.

It’s all metaphor. We can only conceptualize and talk about Divinity in terms of metaphor that we can understand. Or, as PureX put it, “artifice.”

 

[sojourner]

I try not to believe in allah. I don’t want to
hang by my hair in eternal fire.

You could thwart him. shave your head. That’ll show him!

 

[Audie]

You could thwart him. shave your head. That’ll show him!

He is too smart for that.
He already knows I have been bad.
AND
Worse, it would be a sign that I bel¡eve
in him and then....See?

 

[sojourner]

He is too smart for that.
He already knows I have been bad.
AND
Worse, it would be a sign that I bel¡eve
in him and then....See?

How does he know you’ve been bad, if you don’t believe in him? Seems a non-existent deity wouldn’t know much of anything...

 

[Audie]

How does he know you’ve been bad, if you don’t believe in him? Seems a non-existent deity wouldn’t know much of anything...

As gilbert and sullivan would put it-

"A paradox, a paradox
A most amusing paradox."

 

[PureX]

I don't understand what you are saying. Cthulhu is a god ...

No, Cthulhu is a god-concept that some humans choose to employ. It's a form of artifice. It's not for me to accept or reject as true or untrue. It's just a representational tool, like Ronald McDonald is a corporate form of artifice representing a specific commercial ideology.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That sort of bigotry is quite irrational. There are literally BILLIONS of theists on the planet, many of whom you interact with every day, and yet have no idea what they believe or practice regarding the subject of "God".

And as long as we don't talk about THAT particular subject, we'd probably get along okay. They might very well show some other predisposition to superstitious or foolish ways of thinking - and this is what I was getting at. And at that point, we'd be at odds a bit, perhaps with me trying to correct them out of the thought processes they are engaging in that I don't agree with. We all do this to some extent... its just that some of us are willing to admit it, and others try to label it "bigotry" when it is pointed at them.

And yet here you are declaring with the same arrogance and "cock-suredness" that you claim to disdain in them,

And just what am I so cock-sure of? That theists I engage with most often in my life tend to display ridiculous behaviors and modes of thought? I've already stated this is my opinion. What more do you want from me? I haven't claimed anything was "absolute truth," now have I? No... I definitely leave that to the theists. Are you even getting at all how this works yet?

One would think the irony of this would become overwhelming!

Nah. I don't get overwhelmed. At least not very easily. I can't even remember the last time I felt it. Maybe when I was back in college. Maybe... but I'd be hard-pressed to put my finger on specific times. It takes a lot to rattle my cage. I think you'd be surprised.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Because things like unicorns, aliens, Bigfoot, and leprechauns (if such exist) are merely singular eccentricities of nature.

What is this supposed to mean?

Their existence doesn’t bring transformation.

WHAT?! How could you POSSIBLY know this? What are you smoking?

And claiming that "God" brings about "transformation" is bunk. It is YOUR BELIEF that brings the transformation in you. You have no evidence or even good reason to think otherwise. You just don't. Stop kidding yourself.

But there is good reason to hope God is and to believe God is, because God sets the bar for our being.

This sounds like a baseless assertion to me. Maybe based on some texts written several thousand years ago or something. There's a lot of that going around unfortunately.

God, in the least, provides a standard to which we aspire, because our anthropomorphosis of God is an embodiment of our highest hopes and aspirations for ourselves

Oh really? Huh... interesting. So, when was the last time you ordered a bunch of people to go into a village and massacre the inhabitants? When was the last time you ran through town killing all the first-born males you came in contact with? Ever pour so much water into a place that it killed EVERYONE? No? What exactly are you aspiring to? The 10 commandments? Does GOD even keep those Himself? Oh wait... nope. This is garbage.

— especially as a race, but also as individuals. Those who believe in God imagine that our being comes from God and abides in God. So God defines us in very significant ways. Unicorns don’t do that. Bigfoot doesn’t do that. Leprechauns don't do that.

What a ridiculous claim. So what? You want me to use something other than Bigfoot and leprechauns? FINE! Zeus. Thor. Ganesha. Huītzilōpōchtli. Kinich Ahau. Xenu. Please... you think I have to stick to fairies and unicorns?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The Deity is “this realm.”

Says you.

Our hearts beat with the rhythm of the universe.

Says you.

Coming face-to-face with the utter truth of ourselves is profoundly life-changing.

It might be... but you can't even know exactly what that "Truth" is. And this is proven with your insistence in "God." Unless you want to call "God" the "universe." But we already have a word for "universe" that I prefer to use. That being "universe" or course. In my opinion, the sentiment that "God is the universe" is as good as declaring that "God" doesn't exist. Instead, it only means that the universe and God are the same thing... and there is absolutely no way to show that "the universe" has intent, makes decisions using some form of "intellect", etc. And so, what you believe in is the material and energy that compose the universe. And I am with you there.

We’re not meant to “get along.” We’re meant to live abundantly.

Says you.

Revenge isn’t in the universe’s game plan.

I don't believe there is a "game plan" in any sense. And you couldn't demonstrate that there is one if you tried. Exactly as I couldn't display that there is not one. The problem for you being that the observable activity of the universe sure does seem like it is on "autopilot," and there isn't a hint of a requirement that "something" be pulling all the strings.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

No, Cthulhu is a god-concept that some humans choose to employ. It's a form of artifice. It's not for me to accept or reject as true or untrue. It's just a representational tool, like Ronald McDonald is a corporate form of artifice representing a specific commercial ideology.

I don't follow. How is Cthulhu a "representational tool" and Yahweh not a "representational tool?" There are people around the world who believe in Cthulhu. Cthulhu's Witnesses is an actual religion.

 

[PureX]

I don't follow. How is Cthulhu a "representational tool" and Yahweh not a "representational tool?" There are people around the world who believe in Cthulhu. Cthulhu's Witnesses is an actual religion.

All god-concepts are representational tools. The actuality of God is beyond our comprehension. So we have to create these representations to help us recognize and understand and relate to this great meta-mystery called "God". Just as we create religions to help us live according to our chosen theological constructs.

 

[sojourner]

What is this supposed to mean?

If you can’t figure out, there’s no helping you. It’s pretty straightforward.

WHAT?! How could you POSSIBLY know this? What are you smoking?

Because what I call “God” is life, and life either constantly changes, or it’s death.
BTW: I don’t know why you feel your posts have to be so snotty. you’re not the only one with a creative idea, you know. Or maybe you haven’t developed a creative streak like the rest of humanity. Or maybe you’re just too afraid to “color outside the lines.” At any rate, sounds as if you’re angry with and contemptuous of anyone who thinks creatively. There are wonderful medications for that sort of disorder.

And claiming that "God" brings about "transformation" is bunk. It is YOUR BELIEF that brings the transformation in you

Perhaps — and I’m willing to consider that possibility. Or, it might be that God is a valuable metaphor for the interior life. However, you can’t prove that God doesn’t do those things. But at least I’m not angry about it. Stress will kill you.

You have no evidence or even good reason to think otherwise. You just don't. Stop kidding yourself

You don’t believe I have no good reason. But what you believe isn’t necessarily reality — or even reasonable.

This sounds like a baseless assertion to me.

Of course it does; you’re closed-minded.

Oh really? Huh... interesting. So, when was the last time you ordered a bunch of people to go into a village and massacre the inhabitants? When was the last time you ran through town killing all the first-born males you came in contact with? Ever pour so much water into a place that it killed EVERYONE? No? What exactly are you aspiring to? The 10 commandments? Does GOD even keep those Himself? Oh wait... nope. This is garbage

Someone has a rather myopic view of the concept of God.

What a ridiculous claim

Says you.

So what? You want me to use something other than Bigfoot and leprechauns? FINE! Zeus. Thor. Ganesha. Huītzilōpōchtli. Kinich Ahau. Xenu. Please... you think I have to stick to fairies and unicorns

Someone sounds bitter. That must suck for you.

 

[sojourner]

Says you.

Opinions matter.

Says you.

See above.

It might be... but you can't even know exactly what that "Truth" is.

Sure we can. Truth is relative to our perspective.

Unless you want to call "God" the "universe." But we already have a word for "universe" that I prefer to use

You have your preferences; I have mine.

In my opinion, the sentiment that "God is the universe" is as good as declaring that "God" doesn't exist

Opinions vary.

there is absolutely no way to show that "the universe" has intent, makes decisions using some form of "intellect", etc. And so, what you believe in is the material and energy that compose the universe. And I am with you there

I didn’t say that it did. And I do think there’s a collective consciousness.

Says you.

...And millions of other people who aren’t all emo and Eeyore.

I don't believe there is a "game plan" in any sense

Neither do I. It was a figure of speech.

The problem for you being that the observable activity of the universe sure does seem like it is on "autopilot," and there isn't a hint of a requirement that "something" be pulling all the strings

I don’t see why that’s a problem for me? The river flows; we can either choose to jump in and go with the current, or we can try to distance ourselves from it and be unhappy.

I think you have me very, very confused with fundigelical literalism.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If you can’t figure out, there’s no helping you. It’s pretty straightforward.

Sure thing. I feel so inadequate now. Hahahaha... no. No I really don't. You have no idea how little words like these of yours matter to me. There is no substance here.

Because what I call “God” is life

Then I do not accept what you call "God" as a god. I simply refuse. You are better off taking your semantics elsewhere.

and life either constantly changes, or it’s death.

This bit was so useless I couldn't discern why you included it except to try and make your point sound more wise or profound.

BTW: I don’t know why you feel your posts have to be so snotty.

I don't feel they have to be. I react as I see fit. End of story. Your posts are so full of fluff that I completely lose all patience, and I am a very, VERY patient person when it comes to most aspects of life. You may not believe that... oh well - why would I care?

you’re not the only one with a creative idea, you know.Or maybe you haven’t developed a creative streak like the rest of humanity. Or maybe you’re just too afraid to “color outside the lines.”

What "creative idea?" What are you talking about here? What does "coloring outside the lines" have to do with anything? I LOVE imagination, creativity, surrealism, fantasy... I honestly can't get enough of seeing other people's creative and outlandish ideas put to paper or film, sculpture or canvas. I think it is completely awesome what people come up with at times. Now... if they actually start to BELIEVE the creative worlds they have created with their minds... well then we have a PROBLEM.

Perhaps — and I’m willing to consider that possibility. Or, it might be that God is a valuable metaphor for the interior life. However, you can’t prove that God doesn’t do those things. But at least I’m not angry about it. Stress will kill you.

Why do so many theists turn to accusing their opponents of "anger?" What makes you think I am angry? My tone toward you? My tone is one of some level of contempt, perhaps a bit of exasperation, with a big scoop of eye-rolling-ness and a cherry on top. And I don't do "stress." I don't.

You don’t believe I have no good reason. But what you believe isn’t necessarily reality — or even reasonable.

True. If you tell me you have good reason, I will outright not believe you. You'd have to inform me of the reason, and then I get to judge whether or not I believe it to be adequate. And you don't have to care about my judgment. In fact I would respect you MORE if you didn't. But I will deliver said judgment day in and day out. I'm not going to sit idly by while people tell me that make-believe should be affecting my life as if it were reality in profound ways. Not going to happen. And if you're not telling me that - then we shouldn't even be having this conversation. Because make no mistake, I do not care about your spiritual/religious beliefs. Not one iota. If you aren't pushing anything out there, then you won't hear a peep from me. You do... and you will. Again... you don't have to listen.

Of course it does; you’re closed-minded.

I don't care what you want to call me.

Someone has a rather myopic view of the concept of God.

And you ave left your concept wide open, apparently. So wide open that you just substitute the word "God" for anything else you choose. Excuse my while I continue not to accept your assessment of reality.

Says you.

Yep. I certainly said it.

Someone sounds bitter. That must suck for you.

Bitter? Hmm... not sure. Maybe I am? I don't know. I've never been "hurt" by religion. Not once. I have never been religious. I simply see all religious adherence, activity, belief to the point of "worship" without solid evidence - I see all that as complete and total foolishness. No joke, my intuition goes off like alarm bells informing me that I am witnessing complete and utter tomfoolery whenever anyone starts in with religious or "spiritual" talk that you can tell they overtly intend to sound profound. And the actions... oh boy. Don't even get me started. I once had to stop a grown man from pushing a little kid over while "praying over him" to relieve some malady or another. Just one of the dumbest things I have ever born witness to. As a matter of fact, I have probably just stumbled onto what you're calling "bitterness" here in this conversation. A vast majority of the dumbest things I have ever seen done were done by theists who would have claimed to be experiencing some form of "spirit." Eureka! We've found it!

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Opinions matter.

Are you being serious? At any moment, I can make a conscious decision to care or not care about anyone's opinion of me as long as it just stays opinion. I'm not saying that if their opinion turns into them coming after me with pitchforks that I can consciously make the decision not to care about that. But literally ANYTHING that is mere opinion, I can choose to ignore, cast into the abyss. Are you telling me that you are unable to do this? That opinions you receive from anyone ALWAYS matter to you? Opinions do not matter. This includes mine.

Sure we can. Truth is relative to our perspective.

Maybe sometimes. But there is such a thing as something being true INTERSUBJECTIVELY. A stone can be described as "hard" from both of our perspectives, and always will be. Neither of us can choose to have a different perspective/expectation from gravity. These are the things that must necessarily matter to all parties who wish to be involved in the discussion. But there are ALWAYS things that matter to only one person in the conversation.... and there is where they sometimes simply must stay. Mattering to that person only. Your God is one of those items. Sure, you may find a sympathetic, or even agreeing ear. But then you two can go high-five one another over your ideas of "God"... alone. Sure, you may find a third, or a fourth partner to run around "loving God" (or whatever it is you do), but again, this thing you are calling God, and the things you do - they don't have to matter to anyone else. They don't. It isn't like gravity, or the hardness of stone. Not at all.

You have your preferences; I have mine.

Exactly!

...And millions of other people who aren’t all emo and Eeyore.

And here we go with the appeals to popularity. I could have called this. Almost never fails. I don't care what millions of people think unless their thoughts are to do me some amount of harm. Millions to billions of people also thought the world was flat at one point in the not-to-distant past. Do you understand how little it matters how many people are "on your side" with respect to your ideas? Do you?

I don’t see why that’s a problem for me? The river flows; we can either choose to jump in and go with the current, or we can try to distance ourselves from it and be unhappy.

Holy crap. What does "happiness" have to do with any of this stuff? Where are you getting this? I am assuming you can just pull things straight out of your butt on command? Do you think I am unhappy? Think hard now... do you honestly think I would be on here, arguing with you if I didn't enjoy it? I am having FUN right now... make no mistake. Even when you sit there and tell me that I am closed minded, or insinuate that I lack imagination or must despise the imaginative, even as you tell me I am angry and am "distancing myself from the river" (hahahahaha... what the hell is going on here?) - even with all of that... this is entirely enjoyable for me. Please... if you garner anything from our conversation, understand this.

I think you have me very, very confused with fundigelical literalism.

I don't care where you are on some imaginary "spectrum." I just don't agree with and don't think you have a sound foundation for your ideas, and I am telling you so.

 

[sojourner]

You have no idea how little words like these of yours matter to me. There is no substance here.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Then I do not accept what you call "God" as a god

Nobody's asking you to do that. But I do ask that you respect my position, as I'm respecting yours.

You are better off taking your semantics elsewhere.

What you blow off as "semantics" is not "semantics." It's a theological position.

I couldn't discern

This is the operative clause in your statement. Or perhaps more correct: "I refuse to discern."

I don't feel they have to be. I react as I see fit. End of story. Your posts are so full of fluff

And yours are full of vitriol.

 

[sojourner]

What "creative idea?" What are you talking about here? What does "coloring outside the lines" have to do with anything? I LOVE imagination, creativity, surrealism, fantasy... I honestly can't get enough of seeing other people's creative and outlandish ideas put to paper or film, sculpture or canvas. I think it is completely awesome what people come up with at times. Now... if they actually start to BELIEVE the creative worlds they have created with their minds... well then we have a PROBLEM.

But yet you apparently refuse to think creatively when it comes to profound experiences for which we have no language and little frame of reference. You apparently just blow those off. I choose not to do that, and we have to be creative in dealing with those experiences, precisely because we don't have adequate language or frames of reference. That's why metaphor and allegory are useful. We can't talk about any God-concept except in metaphorical terms. And those who claim otherwise, saying that we can know God exists, and that God's existence is a "fact," are deluding themselves. I believe the experiences I've experienced are real. the metaphors I choose to deal with those experiences are not the experiences, themselves.

My tone is one of some level of contempt, perhaps a bit of exasperation, with a big scoop of eye-rolling-ness and a cherry on top.

Contempt is also toxic and not useful to the conversation.

Why do so many theists turn to accusing their opponents of "anger?"

Why do so many atheists turn to accusing their opponents of farce?

True. If you tell me you have good reason, I will outright not believe you. You'd have to inform me of the reason, and then I get to judge whether or not I believe it to be adequate.

Who elected you judge of reality? Of course, you may judge for yourself -- for what is within the scope of your reality. But you don't get to decide for me, and then come off snotty because I don't live up to your "standards." If our perceptions of reality differ, so be it. My very best friend in the world is a rabid atheist. Somehow, he manages to debate with me without being snotty. Snark gets us nowhere.

I'm not going to sit idly by while people tell me that make-believe should be affecting my life as if it were reality in profound ways.

When did I EVER make that claim?

If you aren't pushing anything out there, then you won't hear a peep from me. You do... and you will. Again... you don't have to listen.

I have every right to claim and proclaim my perceptions -- especially on a forum that advertises itself for such purposes. If you want to disagree, again, feel free. But, O Best Beloved, we can play in the same sand box without making it into a litter-box.

And you ave left your concept wide open, apparently. So wide open that you just substitute the word "God" for anything else you choose.

Who can define God? No one. And if anyone thinks they can, they're deluding themselves. The theological positions I choose, I choose because they help me make meaning out of my life and my experiences. It appears as though you will only accept one concept for God (using it as a sort of pseudo definition) and then knock it down because it's "unreasonable." We have nomenclature for that logical fallacy. what was it now...? Why can't different people conceptualize God in diverse ways that make sense to each? Isn't that what the whole discipline of theology is for? I'm not going to conform to your definition for God, because that definition doesn't work for me.

Bitter? Hmm... not sure. Maybe I am? I don't know. I've never been "hurt" by religion. Not once. I have never been religious. I simply see all religious adherence, activity, belief to the point of "worship" without solid evidence - I see all that as complete and total foolishness.

'
That's your prerogative. My friend thinks so too. I bet you also have a much different concept of "worship" than I do. It looks to me like you've made up your mind about me (even though you don't know me) and you're trying to shove me into a box with all the wacko fundigelicals. I don't think like that, I don't have an "agenda" to push off on anyone, and I'm not going to try to "save you."

I once had to stop a grown man from pushing a little kid over while "praying over him" to relieve some malady or another. Just one of the dumbest things I have ever born witness to.

Yes, that's not only dumb, it's unconscionable. It's inappropriate, because it's violence. It violates boundaries. Thank you for stopping the brute.

A vast majority of the dumbest things I have ever seen done were done by theists who would have claimed to be experiencing some form of "spirit." Eureka! We've found it!

Unfortunately, there is a lot of that nonsense extant within the household of God.

 

[Audie]

But yet you apparently refuse to think creatively when it comes to profound experiences for which we have no language and little frame of reference. You apparently just blow those off. I choose not to do that, and we have to be creative in dealing with those experiences, precisely because we don't have adequate language or frames of reference. That's why metaphor and allegory are useful. We can't talk about any God-concept except in metaphorical terms. And those who claim otherwise, saying that we can know God exists, and that God's existence is a "fact," are deluding themselves. I believe the experiences I've experienced are real. the metaphors I choose to deal with those experiences are not the experiences, themselves.


Contempt is also toxic and not useful to the conversation.


Why do so many atheists turn to accusing their opponents of farce?


Who elected you judge of reality? Of course, you may judge for yourself -- for what is within the scope of your reality. But you don't get to decide for me, and then come off snotty because I don't live up to your "standards." If our perceptions of reality differ, so be it. My very best friend in the world is a rabid atheist. Somehow, he manages to debate with me without being snotty. Snark gets us nowhere.


When did I EVER make that claim?


I have every right to claim and proclaim my perceptions -- especially on a forum that advertises itself for such purposes. If you want to disagree, again, feel free. But, O Best Beloved, we can play in the same sand box without making it into a litter-box.


Who can define God? No one. And if anyone thinks they can, they're deluding themselves. The theological positions I choose, I choose because they help me make meaning out of my life and my experiences. It appears as though you will only accept one concept for God (using it as a sort of pseudo definition) and then knock it down because it's "unreasonable." We have nomenclature for that logical fallacy. what was it now...? Why can't different people conceptualize God in diverse ways that make sense to each? Isn't that what the whole discipline of theology is for? I'm not going to conform to your definition for God, because that definition doesn't work for me.

'
That's your prerogative. My friend thinks so too. I bet you also have a much different concept of "worship" than I do. It looks to me like you've made up your mind about me (even though you don't know me) and you're trying to shove me into a box with all the wacko fundigelicals. I don't think like that, I don't have an "agenda" to push off on anyone, and I'm not going to try to "save you."


Yes, that's not only dumb, it's unconscionable. It's inappropriate, because it's violence. It violates boundaries. Thank you for stopping the brute.


Unfortunately, there is a lot of that nonsense extant within the household of God.

Re farce, we do see an awful lot of that from
our theistic friends. The nature of their beliefs
are farcical, and utter garbage is needed to
support it.

As you said-nonsense extant within the household of God.

(assuming there is this household)

Exceptions are also out there.

 

[sojourner]

Opinions do not matter. This includes mine.

I disagree. Hitler's opinions certainly mattered to Jews. Misogynists opinions certainly matter to women. Homophobes' opinions certainly matter to homosexuals. Opinions matter, because opinions lead to actions, and action affect people.

Maybe sometimes. But there is such a thing as something being true INTERSUBJECTIVELY. A stone can be described as "hard" from both of our perspectives, and always will be. Neither of us can choose to have a different perspective/expectation from gravity. These are the things that must necessarily matter to all parties who wish to be involved in the discussion. But there are ALWAYS things that matter to only one person in the conversation.... and there is where they sometimes simply must stay. Mattering to that person only. Your God is one of those items.

I'm as free to state my truth as you are. The difference being that I'm doing so with a tone of respect.

this thing you are calling God, and the things you do - they don't have to matter to anyone else. They don't. It isn't like gravity, or the hardness of stone. Not at all.

When did I say that they do?

And here we go with the appeals to popularity. I could have called this. Almost never fails. I don't care what millions of people think unless their thoughts are to do me some amount of harm. Millions to billions of people also thought the world was flat at one point in the not-to-distant past. Do you understand how little it matters how many people are "on your side" with respect to your ideas? Do you?

Simply saying that it's not just "me saying it."

Do you think I am unhappy?

You certainly come across that way. You're coming across as bitter, angry, defensive and snotty. And it's not just me. I've been in the people business for a long, long time and I know how to read people. If you're not experiencing those things, then the tone of your posts has been disingenuous.

I don't care where you are on some imaginary "spectrum." I just don't agree with and don't think you have a sound foundation for your ideas, and I am telling you so.

You're free to feel that way.