The Atonement Doctrine (Did Jesus Die For Our Sins?)

[Riders]

Where are the Romans in all this? He did not give his up for our sins in any ways, he was crucified by the romans who put him on trial who killed him on the cross not as a ransom,sense it was the Romans descision they did with him what they did with every other Messiah who was a member of the Messiah movement. He was killed and Im responsible for my wrongs,Jesus was killed its abusive to jesus to use his death by murder as an excuse to absolve my wrongs and not take responsibility for my life.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Exactly. Focusing on the cross is just throwing Jesus under the bus so we can get out of the consequences of our own actions. I consider it much more mature to own up to one's own consequences, no matter what.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Exactly. Focusing on the cross is just throwing Jesus under the bus so we can get out of the consequences of our own actions. I consider it much more mature to own up to one's own consequences, no matter what.

Jesus was a Jew and, he could not have died on the cross for our sins because he would be contradicting the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:3,20; Jeremiah 31:30)
The reason why Jesus died was because his own disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. So, he was crucified on a political charge of insurrection and his verdict
was nailed on the top of his cross and it read INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

 

[Riders]

Now see that's interesting I didn't know there were scriptures in the old testament that said that you cant die for someone elses sin which puts a whole new light on the Christian religion.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Now see that's interesting I didn't know there were scriptures in the old testament that said that you cant die for someone elses sin which puts a whole new light on the Christian religion.

Yes Riders, adding to Ezekiel and Jeremiah which I have mentioned above, we also have II Kings 14:6; Deuteronomy 24:16; Exodus 32:33; etc.

 

[moorea944]

Jesus was a Jew and, he could not have died on the cross for our sins because he would be contradicting the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:3,20; Jeremiah 31:30)
The reason why Jesus died was because his own disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. So, he was crucified on a political charge of insurrection and his verdict
was nailed on the top of his cross and it read INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

Jesus was a Jew and, he could not have died on the cross for our sins because he would be contradicting the Prophets of the Most High who say that no one can die for the sins of another. (Ezekiel 18:3,20; Jeremiah 31:30)

That's different. That is Israel under the law. Scripture does tell us that he died for our sins. He is now our High Priest. We dont need the law (Mosiac) anymore, for it was a "shadow" of better things to come. IT was suppose to bring us TO Christ. Hebrew tells us that Jesus is the Mediator of a new Covenant. A better Covenant. Better than Moses, Aaron, Angels, etc..... We can go to the Father for forgiveness of sins, through Jesus, without going to a priest to kill animals. That is why it is called a "new covenant".

The reason why Jesus died was because his own disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Jerusalem at the time. So, he was crucified on a political charge of insurrection and his verdict was nailed on the top of his cross and it read INRI. (Luke 19:37-40)

Wow, where do you get that from? Jesus died to make our Creator right, in by that the flesh nature has to die or to be put to death. Though Jesus did not sin, he was like us (Heb 2). He showed us that way that sin has to be put to death. We put sin to death, symbollically, by our baptisms. We die with Christ when we go down into the waters and we are raised, symbollically, with Christ when we come out of the water. Read 1 Cor 15 and Romans 6.

1 Cor 15 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

Christ is the "firstfruits" as stated in 1 Cor 15. He is showing us the way. He is showing us on what we can also have if we follow him, eternal life. Pick up your cross and follow me!

 

[metis]

That's different. That is Israel under the law. Scripture does tell us that he died for our sins. He is now our High Priest. We dont need the law (Mosiac) anymore, for it was a "shadow" of better things to come. IT was suppose to bring us TO Christ. Hebrew tells us that Jesus is the Mediator of a new Covenant. A better Covenant. Better than Moses, Aaron, Angels, etc..... We can go to the Father for forgiveness of sins, through Jesus, without going to a priest to kill animals. That is why it is called a "new covenant".



Wow, where do you get that from? Jesus died to make our Creator right, in by that the flesh nature has to die or to be put to death. Though Jesus did not sin, he was like us (Heb 2). He showed us that way that sin has to be put to death. We put sin to death, symbollically, by our baptisms. We die with Christ when we go down into the waters and we are raised, symbollically, with Christ when we come out of the water. Read 1 Cor 15 and Romans 6.

1 Cor 15 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

Christ is the "firstfruits" as stated in 1 Cor 15. He is showing us the way. He is showing us on what we can also have if we follow him, eternal life. Pick up your cross and follow me!

You might have to explain why in the Tanakh it says that thr Covenant and the Law are "forever", "perpetual", etc., along with that a "false-prophet" was one who said that following the Law wasn't important.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That's different. That is Israel under the law.

And, "under the Law" we all are supposed to be until heavens and earth exist. Jesus himself said so in Matthew 5:17-19.

Scripture does tell us that he died for our sins.

Which Scripture, the one of Paul aka the NT? The only Scripture Jesus always referred to as the Word of God was the Tanach. The NT, Jesus never even dreamed would ever rise.

He is now our High Priest. We dont need the law (Mosiac) anymore, for it was a "shadow" of better things to come.

Now, I wonder why Jesus did not know that we no longer need the Mosaic Law as he used to teach us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Read Luke 16:29-31.

IT was suppose to bring us TO Christ. Hebrew tells us that Jesus is the Mediator of a new Covenant. A better Covenant. Better than Moses, Aaron, Angels, etc.....

The word "Christ" means anointed one of the Lord. I hope you agree with me. According to Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One. That's what "Christ" means, the Anointed one of the Lord aka
Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

We can go to the Father for forgiveness of sins, through Jesus, without going to a priest to kill animals. That is why it is called a "new covenant".

Not according to Prophet Isaiah 1:18,19 which says, "To set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, we need repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law.

Wow, where do you get that from? Jesus died to make our Creator right, in by that the flesh nature has to die or to be put to death.

I get all that from your own gospel the NT. You guys must read it without Christian preconceived notions.

Though Jesus did not sin, he was like us (Heb 2). He showed us that way that sin has to be put to death. We put sin to death, symbollically, by our baptisms. We die with Christ when we go down into the waters and we are raised, symbollically, with Christ when we come out of the water. Read 1 Cor 15 and Romans 6.

Who told you that Jesus never sin? According to the Scripture, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." (Ecclesiastes 7:20) Besides, if we are supposed to believe Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text. The Golden Rule states not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I am sure Jesus would not have liked to be addressed as an hypocrite and brood of vipers. Don't you think so? He did exactly this to the Jewish authorities. I don't believe Mat. 23:13-33 but I am sure you do. So, don't deny that Jesus was also sinful just like any one else.

1 Cor 15 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

What Scriptures? The only Scriptures I have is that "No one can die for the sins of another." (Ezekiel 18:3,20)

Christ is the "firstfruits" as stated in 1 Cor 15. He is showing us the way. He is showing us on what we can also have if we follow him, eternal life. Pick up your cross and follow me!

Jesus could have never said that because he knew that there is nothing eternal about man but death. The reason why Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of knowledge and lived forever. (Genesis 3:22) It means that only HaShem is eternal and this attribute could not be shared with man.

 

[moorea944]

You might have to explain why in the Tanakh it says that thr Covenant and the Law are "forever", "perpetual", etc., along with that a "false-prophet" was one who said that following the Law wasn't important.

What verse are you talking about. Let's start there....

 

[Ben Avraham]

That's different. That is Israel under the law.

And under the Law we all are until heavens and earth pass away. So, did Jesus say. Read Matthew 5:17-19.

Scripture does tell us that he died for our sins.

Which Scriptures, the Scriptures Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God? It is called the Tanach. Can you show us a quote in the Tanach to the effect that Jesus died for our sins?

He is now our High Priest. We dont need the law (Mosiac) anymore, for it was a "shadow" of better things to come. IT was suppose to bring us TO Christ.

Did Jesus know that we don't need the Mosaic Law anymore? If he knew, why would he warn us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law to escape hell-fire? That's in Luke 16:29-31.

Hebrew tells us that Jesus is the Mediator of a new Covenant. A better Covenant. Better than Moses, Aaron, Angels, etc..... We can go to the Father for forgiveness of sins, through Jesus, without going to a priest to kill animals. That is why it is called a "new covenant".

Nevertheless, the New Covenant was established with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, not with Christians. (Jeremiah 31:31) And regarding being the mediator, Isaiah says that he is Judah qua Emmanuel if you read Isaiah 8:8.

Wow, where do you get that from? Jesus died to make our Creator right, in by that the flesh nature has to die or to be put to death.

From your NT. Jesus died on the political charge of insurrection if you know the meaning of INRI. That's why Jesus was put to death. Read Luke 19:37-40

Though Jesus did not sin, he was like us (Heb 2). He showed us that way that sin has to be put to death. We put sin to death, symbollically, by our baptisms. We die with Christ when we go down into the waters and we are raised, symbollically, with Christ when we come out of the water. Read 1 Cor 15 and Romans 6.

Who told you that Jesus did not sin? Read Ecclesiastes 7:20. "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." Jesus was a man upon earth. Then, if you read Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule
15 times only in that text. The Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Big transgression right there. It states not to do unto other what we would not like they did unto ourselves. I bet Jesus would not have like to be addressed
to as a hypocrite and brood of vipers.

1 Cor 15 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"

Ah! The NT! Now read Ezekiel 18:3. It is about the fact that no one can die for the sins of another. Jesus would go for the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

Christ is the "firstfruits" as stated in 1 Cor 15. He is showing us the way. He is showing us on what we can also have if we follow him, eternal life. Pick up your cross and follow me!

The only thing eternal about man is death. according to Genesis 3:22, Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means
that no one can live forever for only HaShem enjoys eternal life.

 

[Riders]

If the atonement is real then why do so many prisoners repent for their sins and people everywhere do this , ask for forgivnss go back the next week and recommit, go back to their crime or sin over and over?To me if atonement works, then atonement would curb my appetite for sin, forgiveness and atonement means not going back to sin.

 

[metis]

What verse are you talking about. Let's start there....

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If the atonement is real then why do so many prisoners repent for their sins and people everywhere do this , ask for forgivnss go back the next week and recommit, go back to their crime or sin over and over?To me if atonement works, then atonement would curb my appetite for sin, forgiveness and atonement means not going back to sin.

The Lord granted to us the attribute of Freewill and expects that we ourselves make good use of it to curb our appetite for sin. (Genesis 4:6,7) Atonement means when a people redeems another as what happened when Israel aka the Tabernacle of Joseph was chosen by lot to redeem Judah so that God's promise to David that his Tribe aka Judah would remain as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) That's when the Lord rejected Israel the Ten Tribes so that Judah remained as a
People before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70)

 

[moorea944]

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

Yes, God's covenants will last forever. Keep in mind that God keeps His promises. And the covenants with Abraham, we are in them too. Gal 3 tells us that when we get baptised, we are now in those promises. Wonderful, isnt it!!

And the law HAS changed. Hebrew tells us that if the priesthood changes, the law has to change too. The Levical priesthood was never meant to last forever. The "new covenant", yes. The Mosaic law was never meant to save you, it was to bring you to christ. The new covenant is a better covenant, with better promises. Better than Moses, Aaron, angels, etc......

Those verses that you posted are wonderful, thank you for posting them even though some of them had nothing to do with what we were talking about..... But thank you anyhow...

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

All innocent and righteous blood atones for sin for a generation's sin. When there are no righteous people in a generation to die for that generation, school children die for that generation's sin. If the Temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem, then innocent lambs would die, which is better than human martyrs. This is all in the Talmud.

One big problem with Christianity is this notion of a human sacrifice. God made it clear to Abraham, that He doesn't want human sacrifice when Abe tried to kill his son.

Everyone would agree, that given a choice, it is better to offer animal sacrifices, than to rely on martyrs and untimely deaths of school children.

For some reason I got out of it was that because of the story of isaac where God asked if he would scarifice his son if that they ummm assumed to do it.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Did Jesus die for our sins?

No, he did not. He would have contradicted God's Word that no one can die for the sins of another if you read Ezekiel 18:3,20 among a few others.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

All innocent and righteous blood atones for sin for a generation's sin. When there are no righteous people in a generation to die for that generation, school children die for that generation's sin. If the Temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem, then innocent lambs would die, which is better than human martyrs. This is all in the Talmud.

One big problem with Christianity is this notion of a human sacrifice. God made it clear to Abraham, that He doesn't want human sacrifice when Abe tried to kill his son.

Everyone would agree, that given a choice, it is better to offer animal sacrifices, than to rely on martyrs and untimely deaths of school children.

See that's that time worshipping cult I don't like. Your very first words. I fought those before no problem for me.I will defend myself or others on that.
It wasn't our Idea to crucify Christ! It wasn't a Christian Idea nor is it a continual part of Christianity.
How could you call it a Christian idea. It wasn't even a religion yet!
I'm against the notion of human blood for sins but thanks pointed one of the most evil occults tripping people up. Say that we are the ones which wasn't even a religion yet!!
Unless you are referring to an occult.

 

[rosends]

All innocent and righteous blood atones for sin for a generation's sin. When there are no righteous people in a generation to die for that generation, school children die for that generation's sin. If the Temple was rebuilt in Jerusalem, then innocent lambs would die, which is better than human martyrs. This is all in the Talmud.

This is what happens when people read translations of the talmud and don't study it.

 

[Muffled]

Where are the Romans in all this? He did not give his up for our sins in any ways, he was crucified by the romans who put him on trial who killed him on the cross not as a ransom,sense it was the Romans descision they did with him what they did with every other Messiah who was a member of the Messiah movement. He was killed and Im responsible for my wrongs,Jesus was killed its abusive to jesus to use his death by murder as an excuse to absolve my wrongs and not take responsibility for my life.

Jesus does not develop His theology from the point of view of Romans.

I don't believe you have any basis for saying that.

I believe you will be but I won't be.

I don't believe there is any Christian worth his salt doing that.

I believe Jesus is responsible for my life because He is Lord of it.

 

[Muffled]

Exactly. Focusing on the cross is just throwing Jesus under the bus so we can get out of the consequences of our own actions. I consider it much more mature to own up to one's own consequences, no matter what.

I believe that statement is false.
I believe as Christians we don't have consequences for our actions because we are only able to do the good that Jesus gives us to do.