The Arrogance of Both Science and Religion

[Neutral Name]

Often we assume that science and religion are at odds with each other, one states that it is based on reason and logic while the other is said to be based on faith and hope. But we often do not see how similar they are in their false promises and claims. We are told both can be used to make the world a better place. We are told by those that hold them true that they are tools which can create a paradise...of course both parties always promised this "paradise" is somewhere in "the future" meanwhile those living in the present suffer under the auspices of both philosophies.

Promises, promises, promises. Both claim to have understanding of our nature, of the nature of the universe and both claim the ability to predict the future. Each claiming to be the truth even though science epitomizes verisimilitude and religion epitomize "faith". Seems to me that both are acts of faith it is just a matter if you want to have faith in verisimilitude or have faith in faith.

Both these philosophies promise us "salvation", people who put their faith in the science community believe that someday science will solve all our problems and someday because of science we will be transported into the stars, while those who believe in religion believe through religious discipline we will be saved and/or enlighten and transported into the Heavens.

There doesn't seem to be much of a difference to me.

 

[Martin]

It strikes me that science and religion are quite different activities, and setting them up in opposition is missing the point.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sorry, but do you really think prophets like Joshua and Isaiah wrote their own books in their own alleged times?

Well, think again.

In Exodus 1-11, the author claimed that before and during the time Moses was born, they were building the cities of Pithom and Rameses in northern Egypt. And according to Exodus 12:37, left Egypt from the city of Rameses.

The time between Moses’ birth and him leading his people out of Rameses, is 80 years.

Here is the problem. If we are to believe the list of kings’ reigns ruling Judah in 1 & 2 Kings are accurate and true, then Solomon would have ruled around in 970 to 931 BCE, and according to 1 Kings 6:1, started building his temple in 4th year of his reign, which would be 967 BCE. But this verse (1 Kings 6:1) stated that Moses leading them out of Egypt occurred 480 years ago:



This would put the “exodus” started from Rameses would date to around 1447 BCE, and Moses birth around 1527 BCE.

Now 1527 BCE, would mean Moses’ birth be the time that Ahmose I (reign 1549 - 1524 BCE), the founder of 18th dynasty and the start of the New Kingdom period, the king who drove out the Hyksos. While 1447 would mean the exodus occurred in the reign of Thutmose III (1479 - 1425 BCE).

These dates would then be compared them to actual dates of these 2 cities were built - Pithom and Rameses, but you would have to identify them and their locations.

In Egyptian, Pithom would actually be Per-Atum or Pi-Atum, meaning the “House of Atum”, which supposed be a temple to the sun god Atum. And Rameses would be Pi-Ramesses, hence the “House of Ramesses”.

Identifying them posed a bit of problem. For instance, the location of Pithom, archaeologists have found two sites, one was built in the time of the Hyksos (15th and 16th dynasties), but who ordered it built, remained unknown); it is called Tell El Muskhuts. But by end of Ahmose’s reign, it remained abandoned until the late 7th century BCE. The 2nd possible location of Pithom, is Tell El Retaba, built around the reign of Ramesses II (reign 1279 - 1213 BCE), of the 20th dynasty.

Rameses or Pi-Ramesses has been identified as to the site Qantir, built to the time of Ramesses II.

Pi-Ramesses didn’t exist during Ahmose’s and Thutmose’s times (eg respectively 1527 and 1447 BCE).

So either the author didn’t know when these cities were built or Moses didn’t write it if he was a real person.

Note that might dates regarding to Moses are only approximate dates, since some would push Solomon’s reign to earlier dates, which would also push his 480 years of the exodus back too.

Second, there are no evidences that the 12 tribes of Israel invaded and occupied Canaan, as narrated in Joshua. Joshua’s succession would date to around 1407 BCE, in the time of Amenhotep II (1425 - 1401 or 1397 BCE), Thutmose’s son.

The fact that in the book of Isaiah, wrote of the time that the Jews will be free to return to their homeland from Babylon, by none other than the Persian Cyrus the Great, tells me this book was written in the second half of the 6th century BCE, and not the 8th century BCE.

None of the dates estimated in these OT books, match those times in history and archaeology.

I will continue to use the convention of saying "Moses wrote" or "Luke wrote", etc. for clarity. I'm Jewish and rabbis never say, "the writings of the one allegedly credited to Moses."

For someone who has rejected religion, you definitely are promoting Pharisaical beliefs and writings!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Since the beginning of humans people have convinced themselves they are having a communication with a deity.

The Power of Prayer

"Atheists think that a prayer to God is sheer imagination. But for centuries, thousands of sincere practitioners have accumulated definite evidence of the positive results of prayer. The serious doubt regarding prayer is not whether God can hear and respond, but whether the things people pray for are worthwhile. According to St. Teresa of Avila. “More tears are shed in this world from prayers that are answered than from those that go unanswered.” Those who pray, therefore, need more than the conviction that the Supreme can fulfill our desires. Before we approach God with our requests, we ought to become educated as to what to pray for. The pure devotees of the Lord can teach us this ultimate truth.

The real purpose of prayer is not to gain material resources or even spiritual salvation for oneself. The power of prayer comes w hen we call to Krishna out of a desire to do His will. Such pure prayers are not means to the end but are themselves loving exchanges between the Lord and His pure devotees. Whether we call on Him from the darkness of our fallen state in the material world, or whether we praise Him in the midst of His liberated associates in the kingdom of God, the pure prayer is the same: “Please engage me in Your service”—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna , Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

I'm not doubting that prayer is powerful and can awaken parts of our own minds, in fact that article actually says just that:


"One form of popular prayer emphasizes the pragmatic results. These “prayers” are actually nontheistic. As advised by psychologists, a person who believes strongly in his prayer can awaken from within his own subconsciousness huge stores of confidence and power and thus achieve his desired goal."


In this article "God" is Brahman. Different god, prayer still works the same. Obviously it's a psychological tool.
But you can never demonstrate any empirical evidence of a god-communication that could not be explained by confirmation bias.

I still have a 15 digit number anyone in communication with a supernatural being can have revealed to them for empirical proof.

But prayer has been studied, it doesn't work:

Studies on intercessory prayer
Studies on intercessory prayer - Wikipedia

Why do you think people say "sometimes the answer is no" and when people pray for someone to survive an illness if they survive they say it worked and if they don't they just say it was god's will? That's the same as random chance??!?

If prayer worked mortality rates for diseases would be skewed all over the place. A certain illness that has a 60% mortality rate generally always has that rate until medical technology improves. Every year mortality rates match up to what they are expected to be for illness.

If prayers were being answered they simply would not match up any longer. Mortality rates would appear as random because god was saving people all over the place. But the stats show that that is not happening.

This is a good indicator because when people are sick is when they pray most and when others pray for them as well.

I'm aware of Jesus Christ beyond my prayer and prayer responses, however, my prayers are statistically significant since I've seen God respond thousands, not dozens, of times.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I thought you were saying (per the article) that Luke's knowledge was so impeccable even though he had no maps or documents it had to be a revelation from God.

Anyway, no, Luke for one was absolutely transforming the Kings story, Luke does it more than any other gospel writer, there is no doubt about that and it's a mainstream view in scholarship. I thought you were saying that it just looks like that because god was giving Luke information?
There is an apologetics article out there that actually says god wanted Luke to use all those literary devices and to mirror the Kings narrative to show his tremendous power and depth. I'm going to go with Luke was probably a really educated writer and knew exactly what he was doing.
Luke was also using Mark, again we know this because of the synoptic problem. Luke is writing his version of Mark.

a few examples of Luke's use rhetorical imitation from Kings and to a paper by Thomas Brodie.
Luke 7,36-50 as an Internalization of 2 Kings 4,1-37: A Study in Luke's Use of Rhetorical Imitation on JSTOR

Luke section at 22:40

I did not say, "Luke's knowledge was so impeccable even though he had no maps or documents it had to be a revelation from God." I said, "In a time when archaeology did not exist and most religious documents were mere panegyrics", Luke's exceptional historicity and accuracy are established, demonstrating also that Luke was a contemporaneous eyewitness of NT times."

It's hard to debate a person who reads things I haven't written!

I agree with you, however, that Luke was an educated, skillful writer. What you seem unaware of is that amount of literary allusions the Bible already used to show patterns and be self-referential before Luke was born. Saying "Wow, Luke sure seems to write as a mirror of 1 and 2 Kings nullifies his truth", is incorrect. Rather, I say, "Wow, Luke did the same style of heroic literature as found in the Old Testament, showing Luke was truly writing scripture."

 

[BilliardsBall]

Many people have experiences that they attributed to god, but there's still no proof that god was involved.

How do know that god answered your prayers? Can you explain it.

How many prayers should be answered before I have statistical significance? How many actions should God do before I acknowledge statistical significance?

For example, I used to work full time for a financial planner, doing assessments and analyses, and I can tell you this--I would NEVER tell someone, "To increase your investment portfolio and personal wealth, take money and give it away generously, so that you have less money," yet against all logic and natural law, the wealthiest Christians I know give the most/biggest percentage away, and I personally have seen countless money miracles.

 

[gnostic]

I will continue to use the convention of saying "Moses wrote" or "Luke wrote", etc. for clarity. I'm Jewish and rabbis never say, "the writings of the one allegedly credited to Moses."

I will concede that Moses wrote the Torah, if you or anyone can present ancient texts of the Torah (eg Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, etc) written and conclusively dated in the mid-2nd millennium BCE, which would be near the start of the Late Bronze Age.

This Late Bronze Age period is indications of the start of Kassite dynasty in Babylon (or start of Middle Babylonian period), and the start of 18th dynasty of New Kingdom in Egypt, both occurring in 16th century BCE.

And that’s the thing, there are no Bronze Age compositions of Genesis and Exodus. Not in clay tablets, not in stone tablets, not in parchment or in papyri.

At that time, ancient Hebrew alphabet weren’t invented yet, and most common of writing in this millennium. The most common form of writing system was the cuneiform that extended beyond Babylonia, while in Egypt, it was the Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic.

The oldest evidence, to date, is the amulet known as the Silver Scrolls, found in the cave Ketef Hinnom and dated to been middle of Josiah’s reign and before the fall of Jerusalem to the Neo-Babylonian army (c 630 and c 590 BCE). This amulet contained a passage of Numbers, more specifically the Priestly Blessings. So far nothing is older than this Silver Scrolls.

So unless you can present actual evidences that Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus were written in the 15th century BCE, then Moses didn’t write these books.

 

[gnostic]

I'm Jewish and rabbis never say, "the writings of the one allegedly credited to Moses."

For someone who has rejected religion, you definitely are promoting Pharisaical beliefs and writings!

BilliardsBall, although I don't follow any one religion, I actually tried to understand them.

If not out of faith, then out of simple curiosity. I have always been interested in ancient cultures, particularly of ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt and the Mesopotamia, and that include history, art and religions.

But my main interests in religions are stories, myths.

Is there something wrong with that?

 

[gnostic]

I did not say, "Luke's knowledge was so impeccable even though he had no maps or documents it had to be a revelation from God." I said, "In a time when archaeology did not exist and most religious documents were mere panegyrics", Luke's exceptional historicity and accuracy are established, demonstrating also that Luke was a contemporaneous eyewitness of NT times."

Accurate, I think not.

If he (author of gospel of Luke) was accurate, then he would know that the Roman census took place in 6 CE, when Judaea was annexed and made into the Roman province, not 6 BCE, when Herod was still alive and ruling Judaea at that time.

Josephus made it quite clear that the Roman census carried out 10 years AFTER Herod's death.

After Herod's death (4 BCE), the kingdom was divided, with Archelaus getting Judaea, and ruled for 10 years, until Augustus banished Archelaus and annexed Judaea as a Roman province, in 6 CE.

That's the main reason why the census took place in the first place; a new Roman province required census to be carry out. And it was at this point, that Augustus appointed Publius Sulpicius Quirinius as governor of Syria, from 6 to 12 CE. (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 1)

Quirinius was never in Syria, when Herod was alive, because Gaius Sentius Saturninus (9 - 7/6 BCE) and Publius Quinctilius Varus (7/6 – 4 BCE) were at this period of time.

Had the census hypothetically taken place when Herod was still alive (prior to 4 BCE), then wouldn't either Saturninus or Varus would have overseen the census, not Quirinius?

Josephus mentioned Saturninus serving in Syria (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 1), as did Tertullian (Against Marcion, 4:19), who stated that Jesus was born while Saturninus was governor, not Quirinius as the gospel so claimed. And neither Josephus nor Tertullian say that any census taking place when Saturninus was governor.

So the dates of Jesus (Jesus' birth), Herod, Quirinius, and the census, that Luke - or whoever the real author of gospel was - don't add up.

If the gospel was so accurate, it would not get it so wrong.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I will concede that Moses wrote the Torah, if you or anyone can present ancient texts of the Torah (eg Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, etc) written and conclusively dated in the mid-2nd millennium BCE, which would be near the start of the Late Bronze Age.

This Late Bronze Age period is indications of the start of Kassite dynasty in Babylon (or start of Middle Babylonian period), and the start of 18th dynasty of New Kingdom in Egypt, both occurring in 16th century BCE.

And that’s the thing, there are no Bronze Age compositions of Genesis and Exodus. Not in clay tablets, not in stone tablets, not in parchment or in papyri.

At that time, ancient Hebrew alphabet weren’t invented yet, and most common of writing in this millennium. The most common form of writing system was the cuneiform that extended beyond Babylonia, while in Egypt, it was the Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic.

The oldest evidence, to date, is the amulet known as the Silver Scrolls, found in the cave Ketef Hinnom and dated to been middle of Josiah’s reign and before the fall of Jerusalem to the Neo-Babylonian army (c 630 and c 590 BCE). This amulet contained a passage of Numbers, more specifically the Priestly Blessings. So far nothing is older than this Silver Scrolls.

So unless you can present actual evidences that Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus were written in the 15th century BCE, then Moses didn’t write these books.

I didn't ask you to concede that Moses wrote the Torah, I asked you to recognize that I will not add additional disclaimer paragraphs every time I use a universal Bible referent.

 

[BilliardsBall]

BilliardsBall, although I don't follow any one religion, I actually tried to understand them.

If not out of faith, then out of simple curiosity. I have always been interested in ancient cultures, particularly of ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt and the Mesopotamia, and that include history, art and religions.

But my main interests in religions are stories, myths.

Is there something wrong with that?

Your "interest" includes sending me hundreds, even thousands of words, to tell me why I can't call the third gospel "Luke" like everyone else does on the planet. That's being a Pharisee at best and a pain in the behind at worst. You really have an axe to grind against the Bible, not a mere "interest" IMHO.

IMHO, don't pick fights with God!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Accurate, I think not.

If he (author of gospel of Luke) was accurate, then he would know that the Roman census took place in 6 CE, when Judaea was annexed and made into the Roman province, not 6 BCE, when Herod was still alive and ruling Judaea at that time.

Josephus made it quite clear that the Roman census carried out 10 years AFTER Herod's death.

After Herod's death (4 BCE), the kingdom was divided, with Archelaus getting Judaea, and ruled for 10 years, until Augustus banished Archelaus and annexed Judaea as a Roman province, in 6 CE.

That's the main reason why the census took place in the first place; a new Roman province required census to be carry out. And it was at this point, that Augustus appointed Publius Sulpicius Quirinius as governor of Syria, from 6 to 12 CE. (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 1)

Quirinius was never in Syria, when Herod was alive, because Gaius Sentius Saturninus (9 - 7/6 BCE) and Publius Quinctilius Varus (7/6 – 4 BCE) were at this period of time.

Had the census hypothetically taken place when Herod was still alive (prior to 4 BCE), then wouldn't either Saturninus or Varus would have overseen the census, not Quirinius?

Josephus mentioned Saturninus serving in Syria (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 1), as did Tertullian (Against Marcion, 4:19), who stated that Jesus was born while Saturninus was governor, not Quirinius as the gospel so claimed. And neither Josephus nor Tertullian say that any census taking place when Saturninus was governor.

So the dates of Jesus (Jesus' birth), Herod, Quirinius, and the census, that Luke - or whoever the real author of gospel was - don't add up.

If the gospel was so accurate, it would not get it so wrong.

I'm aware of the census controversy, which is yet unsettled. Now deal with these facts as presented accurately in Luke! ...

1. the natural crossing between correctly named ports (Acts 13:4-5)

2. the proper port (Perga) along the direct destination of a ship crossing from Cyprus (13:13)

3. the proper location of Lycaonia (14:6)

4. the unusual but correct declension of the name Lystra (14:6)

5. the correct language spoken in Lystra—Lycaonian (14:11)

6. two gods known to be so associated—Zeus and Hermes (14:12)

7. the proper port, Attalia, which returning travelers would use (14:25)

8. the correct order of approach to Derbe and then Lystra from the Cilician Gates (16:1; cf. 15:41)

9. the proper form of the name Troas (16:8)

10. the place of a conspicuous sailors’ landmark, Samothrace (16:11)

11. the proper description of Philippi as a Roman colony (16:12)

12. the right location for the river (Gangites) near Philippi (16:13)

13. the proper association of Thyatira as a center of dyeing (16:14)

14. correct designations for the magistrates of the colony (16:22)

15. the proper locations (Amphipolis and Apollonia) where travelers would spend successive nights on this journey (17:1)

16. the presence of a synagogue in Thessalonica (17:1)

17. the proper term (“politarchs”) used of the magistrates there (17:6)

18. the correct implication that sea travel is the most convenient way of reaching Athens, with the favoring east winds of summer sailing (17:14-15)

19. the abundant presence of images in Athens (17:16)

20. the reference to a synagogue in Athens (17:17)

21. the depiction of the Athenian life of philosophical debate in the Agora (17:17)

22. the use of the correct Athenian slang word for Paul (sper-mologos, 17:18) as well as for the court (Areios pagos, 17:19)

23. the proper characterization of the Athenian character (17:21)

24. an altar to an “unknown god” (17:23)

25. the proper reaction of Greek philosophers, who denied the bodily resurrection (17:32)

26. Areopagites as the correct title for a member of the court (17:34)

27. a Corinthian synagogue (18:4)

28. the correct designation of Gallio as proconsul, resident in Corinth (18:12)

29. the bema (judgment seat), which overlooks Corinth’s forum (18:16ff.)

30. the name Tyrannus as attested from Ephesus in first-century inscriptions (19:9)

31. well-known shrines and images of Artemis (19:24)

32. the well-attested “great goddess Artemis” (19:27)

33. that the Ephesian theater was the meeting place of the city (19:29)

34. the correct title grammateus for the chief executive magistrate in Ephesus (19:35)

35. the proper title of honor neokoros, authorized by the Romans (19:35)

36. the correct name to designate the goddess (19:37)

37. the proper term for those holding court (19:38)

38. use of plural anthupatoi, perhaps a remarkable reference to the fact that two men were conjointly exercising the functions of proconsul at this time (19:38)

39. the “regular” assembly, as the precise phrase is attested elsewhere (19:39)

40. use of precise ethnic designation, beroiaios (20:4)

41. employment of the ethnic term Asianos (20:4)

42. the implied recognition of the strategic importance assigned to this city of Troas (20:7ff.)

43. the danger of the coastal trip in this location (20:13) 44. the correct sequence of places (20:14-15)

45. the correct name of the city as a neuter plural (Patara) (21:1)

46. the appropriate route passing across the open sea south of Cyprus favored by persistent northwest winds (21:3)

47. the suitable distance between these cities (21:8)

48. a characteristically Jewish act of piety (21:24)

49. the Jewish law regarding Gentile use of the temple area (21:28) (Archaeological discoveries and quotations from Josephus confirm that Gentiles could be executed for entering the temple area. One inscription reads: “Let no Gentile enter within the balustrade and enclosure surrounding the sanctuary. Whoever is caught will be personally responsible for his consequent death.”2

50. the permanent stationing of a Roman cohort (chiliarch) at Antonia to suppress any disturbance at festival times (21:31)

51. the flight of steps used by the guards (21:31, 35)

52. the common way to obtain Roman citizenship at this time (22:28)

53. the tribune being impressed with Roman rather than Tarsian citizenship (22:29)

54. Ananias being high priest at this time (23:2)

55. Felix being governor at this time (23:34)

56. the natural stopping point on the way to Caesarea (23:31)

57. whose jurisdiction Cilicia was in at the time (23:34)

58. the provincial penal procedure of the time (24:1-9)

59. the name Porcius Festus, which agrees precisely with that given by Josephus (24:27)

60. the right of appeal for Roman citizens (25:11)

61. the correct legal formula (25:18)

62. the characteristic form of reference to the emperor at the time (25:26)

63. the best shipping lanes at the time (27:5)

64. the common bonding of Cilicia and Pamphylia (27:4)

65. the principal port to find a ship sailing to Italy (27:5-6)

66. the slow passage to Cnidus, in the face of the typical northwest wind (27:7)

67. the right route to sail, in view of the winds (27:7)

68. the locations of Fair Havens and the neighboring site of Lasea (27:8)

69. Fair Havens as a poorly sheltered roadstead (27:12)

70. a noted tendency of a south wind in these climes to back suddenly to a violent northeaster, the well-known gregale (27:13)

71. the nature of a square-rigged ancient ship, having no option but to be driven before a gale (27:15)

72. the precise place and name of this island (27:16)

73. the appropriate maneuvers for the safety of the ship in its particular plight (27:16)

74. the fourteenth night—a remarkable calculation, based inevitably on a compounding of estimates and probabilities, confirmed in the judgment of experienced Mediterranean navigators (27:27)

75. the proper term of the time for the Adriatic (27:27)

76. the precise term (Bolisantes) for taking soundings, and the correct depth of the water near Malta (27:28)

77. a position that suits the probable line of approach of a ship released to run before an easterly wind (27:39)

78. the severe liability on guards who permitted a prisoner to escape (27:42)

79. the local people and superstitions of the day (28:4-6)

80. the proper title protos tÓs nÓsou (28:7)

81. Rhegium as a refuge to await a southerly wind to carry them through the strait (28:13)

82. Appii Forum and Tres Tabernae as correctly placed stopping places on the Appian Way (28:15)

83. appropriate means of custody with Roman soldiers (28:16)

84. the conditions of imprisonment, living “at his own expense” (8:30-31)

Is there any doubt that Luke was an eyewitness to these events or at least had access to reliable eyewitness testimony? What more could he have done to prove his authenticity as a historian?

 

[gnostic]

I'm aware of the census controversy, which is yet unsettled. Now deal with these facts as presented accurately in Luke! ...

1. the natural crossing between correctly named ports (Acts 13:4-5)

2. the proper port (Perga) along the direct destination of a ship crossing from Cyprus (13:13)

3. the proper location of Lycaonia (14:6)

4. the unusual but correct declension of the name Lystra (14:6)

5. the correct language spoken in Lystra—Lycaonian (14:11)

6. two gods known to be so associated—Zeus and Hermes (14:12)

7. the proper port, Attalia, which returning travelers would use (14:25)

8. the correct order of approach to Derbe and then Lystra from the Cilician Gates (16:1; cf. 15:41)

9. the proper form of the name Troas (16:8)

10. the place of a conspicuous sailors’ landmark, Samothrace (16:11)

11. the proper description of Philippi as a Roman colony (16:12)

12. the right location for the river (Gangites) near Philippi (16:13)

13. the proper association of Thyatira as a center of dyeing (16:14)

14. correct designations for the magistrates of the colony (16:22)

15. the proper locations (Amphipolis and Apollonia) where travelers would spend successive nights on this journey (17:1)

16. the presence of a synagogue in Thessalonica (17:1)

17. the proper term (“politarchs”) used of the magistrates there (17:6)

18. the correct implication that sea travel is the most convenient way of reaching Athens, with the favoring east winds of summer sailing (17:14-15)

19. the abundant presence of images in Athens (17:16)

20. the reference to a synagogue in Athens (17:17)

21. the depiction of the Athenian life of philosophical debate in the Agora (17:17)

22. the use of the correct Athenian slang word for Paul (sper-mologos, 17:18) as well as for the court (Areios pagos, 17:19)

23. the proper characterization of the Athenian character (17:21)

24. an altar to an “unknown god” (17:23)

25. the proper reaction of Greek philosophers, who denied the bodily resurrection (17:32)

26. Areopagites as the correct title for a member of the court (17:34)

27. a Corinthian synagogue (18:4)

28. the correct designation of Gallio as proconsul, resident in Corinth (18:12)

29. the bema (judgment seat), which overlooks Corinth’s forum (18:16ff.)

30. the name Tyrannus as attested from Ephesus in first-century inscriptions (19:9)

31. well-known shrines and images of Artemis (19:24)

32. the well-attested “great goddess Artemis” (19:27)

33. that the Ephesian theater was the meeting place of the city (19:29)

34. the correct title grammateus for the chief executive magistrate in Ephesus (19:35)

35. the proper title of honor neokoros, authorized by the Romans (19:35)

36. the correct name to designate the goddess (19:37)

37. the proper term for those holding court (19:38)

38. use of plural anthupatoi, perhaps a remarkable reference to the fact that two men were conjointly exercising the functions of proconsul at this time (19:38)

39. the “regular” assembly, as the precise phrase is attested elsewhere (19:39)

40. use of precise ethnic designation, beroiaios (20:4)

41. employment of the ethnic term Asianos (20:4)

42. the implied recognition of the strategic importance assigned to this city of Troas (20:7ff.)

43. the danger of the coastal trip in this location (20:13) 44. the correct sequence of places (20:14-15)

45. the correct name of the city as a neuter plural (Patara) (21:1)

46. the appropriate route passing across the open sea south of Cyprus favored by persistent northwest winds (21:3)

47. the suitable distance between these cities (21:8)

48. a characteristically Jewish act of piety (21:24)

49. the Jewish law regarding Gentile use of the temple area (21:28) (Archaeological discoveries and quotations from Josephus confirm that Gentiles could be executed for entering the temple area. One inscription reads: “Let no Gentile enter within the balustrade and enclosure surrounding the sanctuary. Whoever is caught will be personally responsible for his consequent death.”2

50. the permanent stationing of a Roman cohort (chiliarch) at Antonia to suppress any disturbance at festival times (21:31)

51. the flight of steps used by the guards (21:31, 35)

52. the common way to obtain Roman citizenship at this time (22:28)

53. the tribune being impressed with Roman rather than Tarsian citizenship (22:29)

54. Ananias being high priest at this time (23:2)

55. Felix being governor at this time (23:34)

56. the natural stopping point on the way to Caesarea (23:31)

57. whose jurisdiction Cilicia was in at the time (23:34)

58. the provincial penal procedure of the time (24:1-9)

59. the name Porcius Festus, which agrees precisely with that given by Josephus (24:27)

60. the right of appeal for Roman citizens (25:11)

61. the correct legal formula (25:18)

62. the characteristic form of reference to the emperor at the time (25:26)

63. the best shipping lanes at the time (27:5)

64. the common bonding of Cilicia and Pamphylia (27:4)

65. the principal port to find a ship sailing to Italy (27:5-6)

66. the slow passage to Cnidus, in the face of the typical northwest wind (27:7)

67. the right route to sail, in view of the winds (27:7)

68. the locations of Fair Havens and the neighboring site of Lasea (27:8)

69. Fair Havens as a poorly sheltered roadstead (27:12)

70. a noted tendency of a south wind in these climes to back suddenly to a violent northeaster, the well-known gregale (27:13)

71. the nature of a square-rigged ancient ship, having no option but to be driven before a gale (27:15)

72. the precise place and name of this island (27:16)

73. the appropriate maneuvers for the safety of the ship in its particular plight (27:16)

74. the fourteenth night—a remarkable calculation, based inevitably on a compounding of estimates and probabilities, confirmed in the judgment of experienced Mediterranean navigators (27:27)

75. the proper term of the time for the Adriatic (27:27)

76. the precise term (Bolisantes) for taking soundings, and the correct depth of the water near Malta (27:28)

77. a position that suits the probable line of approach of a ship released to run before an easterly wind (27:39)

78. the severe liability on guards who permitted a prisoner to escape (27:42)

79. the local people and superstitions of the day (28:4-6)

80. the proper title protos tÓs nÓsou (28:7)

81. Rhegium as a refuge to await a southerly wind to carry them through the strait (28:13)

82. Appii Forum and Tres Tabernae as correctly placed stopping places on the Appian Way (28:15)

83. appropriate means of custody with Roman soldiers (28:16)

84. the conditions of imprisonment, living “at his own expense” (8:30-31)

Is there any doubt that Luke was an eyewitness to these events or at least had access to reliable eyewitness testimony? What more could he have done to prove his authenticity as a historian?

A large part of your list comprised of location of places and sites, which don’t have much in term of details, because ancient authors of myths, legends, folklores and traditions often use real places too. Modern fictions, authors often use real locations of cities and landmarks, for setting of their narrations, don’t make the stories true.

The Acts saying they went from point A to B to C, etc, is not much of description at all.

But history isn’t about naming locations, but about being finding sources that can provide independent verification to stories.

For instance, in Acts 14;8-18, you have made several points about Lystra:

4. the unusual but correct declension of the name Lystra (14:6)

5. the correct language spoken in Lystra—Lycaonian (14:11)

6. two gods known to be so associated—Zeus and Hermes (14:12)

The event in Lystra were that people were going to offer sacrifices to Paul and Barnabas for healing a man who was born crippled and couldn’t walk, where they objected to the sacrifice.

That’s the event that need verification, not the language spoken in the city, or it was cult centre for both Zeus and Hermès.

Who was the man whom they allegedly healed? There is no name, so how do you confirm that this man is real, or that he was a crippled.

Other than Acts 14, there are no other texts that can independently collaborate the healing and offer and rejection of sacrifices at Lystra. No independent eyewitness' writing about what happened at Lystra.

That’s not history. It is story of miracle that you cannot verify, as the Acts is only source to healing man from Lystra. History is about events, not just places. Your list of places in the gospel are not history.

 

[joelr]

I'm aware of Jesus Christ beyond my prayer and prayer responses, however, my prayers are statistically significant since I've seen God respond thousands, not dozens, of times.

That's even worse because if your prayer responses caused statistically significant changes then either you are the only person who has a special deity who answers prayers or that is further proof that everyone who prays to your god should see statistically significant outcomes and this would dramatically effect illness mortality rates. In a gigantic way.

Yet we never see that. So that proves even more it's BS.

But the scientific studies have already shown this.

I'm confident all "answered prayers" are just things running their natural course you then attribute to a god.
Let me guess - when things don't work out it's because there is something better down the road, or god has different plans for you.

Here is a secret, this is how everyones life works out. You look back on struggle and it ends up being an important learning and growing experience that we are thankful for.
You can confirmation bias any supernatural agent into your life very easy.
I know secular people who even think that the "universe is looking out for me"

Empirical evidence can never be produced by prayer, it's always vague, after the fact confirmation bias. I've done it as well.

 

[joelr]

I did not say, "Luke's knowledge was so impeccable even though he had no maps or documents it had to be a revelation from God." I said, "In a time when archaeology did not exist and most religious documents were mere panegyrics", Luke's exceptional historicity and accuracy are established, demonstrating also that Luke was a contemporaneous eyewitness of NT times."
It's hard to debate a person who reads things I haven't written!

I was paraphrasing. The source article you posted WAS saying something along those lines. So why would you post an article if it wasn't your position at all? Are they just random stabs at arguments?

You are creating another false narrative here. Religious documents were not mostly panegrics. Writing religious mythology was extremely popular and we even have 6 written examples of Pagan savior gods who pre-date Jesus and more after. The mythical writing style was used in the same manner and does not mirror historical writings from the time at all.
It is 100% mythic writing.
There is no doubt that all of the gospels were written using Mark as a source. For a while it was believed there was a Q document but the work by PhD Marc Goodacre put that to rest.

I agree with you, however, that Luke was an educated, skillful writer. What you seem unaware of is that amount of literary allusions the Bible already used to show patterns and be self-referential before Luke was born. Saying "Wow, Luke sure seems to write as a mirror of 1 and 2 Kings nullifies his truth", is incorrect. Rather, I say, "Wow, Luke did the same style of heroic literature as found in the Old Testament, showing Luke was truly writing scripture."

Yes Luke was writing scripture? Like the OT, exactly and we know the OT is a mythical narrative. That's what scripture is, religious mythical fiction?
There is no historical writings in the gospels. Luke didn't just write in the same style? He took a story and re-wrote it with Jesus as the lead because they were promoting a new deity. He was making Jesus the new Moses.
But also writing a different take on Mark, hence the synoptic problem.
Mark was just copying other savior god movements. There is no history or anything other religious syncretism.

 

[joelr]

How many prayers should be answered before I have statistical significance? How many actions should God do before I acknowledge statistical significance?

For example, I used to work full time for a financial planner, doing assessments and analyses, and I can tell you this--I would NEVER tell someone, "To increase your investment portfolio and personal wealth, take money and give it away generously, so that you have less money," yet against all logic and natural law, the wealthiest Christians I know give the most/biggest percentage away, and I personally have seen countless money miracles.

This is just awful. You think god is sending miracle money to these financial planners while literally milllions of Christians in low income areas are starving, can't afford medicine, rent, people suffer decades of unending debt and work horrible jobs while ill? Oh and that's all getting worse.

7 million kids under the age of 11 die every year, many are Christians, their parents pleading with their god. Why don't those stats change?

what's worse is if you looked at any of those money senarios I'm sure you could easily understand why things worked out as they did. Possible in some cases pure exaggeration.
If a God produced money miracles why do Christian churches file bankruptcy at the same rate businesses do?

"Not only are religious organizations still filing under chapter 11. As in prior years, they continue to file under chapter 11 in line with fluctuations in consumer bankruptcy filings."
Churches Are Still Filing Bankruptcy - Credit Slips

 

[sooda]

I will concede that Moses wrote the Torah, if you or anyone can present ancient texts of the Torah (eg Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, etc) written and conclusively dated in the mid-2nd millennium BCE, which would be near the start of the Late Bronze Age.

This Late Bronze Age period is indications of the start of Kassite dynasty in Babylon (or start of Middle Babylonian period), and the start of 18th dynasty of New Kingdom in Egypt, both occurring in 16th century BCE.

And that’s the thing, there are no Bronze Age compositions of Genesis and Exodus. Not in clay tablets, not in stone tablets, not in parchment or in papyri.

At that time, ancient Hebrew alphabet weren’t invented yet, and most common of writing in this millennium. The most common form of writing system was the cuneiform that extended beyond Babylonia, while in Egypt, it was the Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic.

The oldest evidence, to date, is the amulet known as the Silver Scrolls, found in the cave Ketef Hinnom and dated to been middle of Josiah’s reign and before the fall of Jerusalem to the Neo-Babylonian army (c 630 and c 590 BCE). This amulet contained a passage of Numbers, more specifically the Priestly Blessings. So far nothing is older than this Silver Scrolls.

So unless you can present actual evidences that Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus were written in the 15th century BCE, then Moses didn’t write these books.

Moses didn't write any of them.. They were written during and after the Babylonian exile. The Hebrews had no foundational myths until after they were exposed to the Babylonian culture. Then, they wanted their own history, identity, rules and rituals.

 

[joelr]

I'm aware of the census controversy, which is yet unsettled. Now deal with these facts as presented accurately in Luke! ...

1. the natural crossing between correctly named ports (Acts 13:4-5)

2. the proper port (Perga) along the direct destination of a ship crossing from Cyprus (13:13)

3. the proper location of Lycaonia (14:6)

4. the unusual but correct declension of the name Lystra (14:6)

5. the correct language spoken in Lystra—Lycaonian (14:11)

6. two gods known to be so associated—Zeus and Hermes (14:12)

7. the proper port, Attalia, which returning travelers would use (14:25)

8. the correct order of approach to Derbe and then Lystra from the Cilician Gates (16:1; cf. 15:41)

9. the proper form of the name Troas (16:8)

10. the place of a conspicuous sailors’ landmark, Samothrace (16:11)

11. the proper description of Philippi as a Roman colony (16:12)

12. the right location for the river (Gangites) near Philippi (16:13)

13. the proper association of Thyatira as a center of dyeing (16:14)

14. correct designations for the magistrates of the colony (16:22)

15. the proper locations (Amphipolis and Apollonia) where travelers would spend successive nights on this journey (17:1)

16. the presence of a synagogue in Thessalonica (17:1)

17. the proper term (“politarchs”) used of the magistrates there (17:6)

18. the correct implication that sea travel is the most convenient way of reaching Athens, with the favoring east winds of summer sailing (17:14-15)

19. the abundant presence of images in Athens (17:16)

20. the reference to a synagogue in Athens (17:17)

21. the depiction of the Athenian life of philosophical debate in the Agora (17:17)

22. the use of the correct Athenian slang word for Paul (sper-mologos, 17:18) as well as for the court (Areios pagos, 17:19)

23. the proper characterization of the Athenian character (17:21)

24. an altar to an “unknown god” (17:23)

25. the proper reaction of Greek philosophers, who denied the bodily resurrection (17:32)

26. Areopagites as the correct title for a member of the court (17:34)

27. a Corinthian synagogue (18:4)

28. the correct designation of Gallio as proconsul, resident in Corinth (18:12)

29. the bema (judgment seat), which overlooks Corinth’s forum (18:16ff.)

30. the name Tyrannus as attested from Ephesus in first-century inscriptions (19:9)

31. well-known shrines and images of Artemis (19:24)

32. the well-attested “great goddess Artemis” (19:27)

33. that the Ephesian theater was the meeting place of the city (19:29)

34. the correct title grammateus for the chief executive magistrate in Ephesus (19:35)

35. the proper title of honor neokoros, authorized by the Romans (19:35)

36. the correct name to designate the goddess (19:37)

37. the proper term for those holding court (19:38)

38. use of plural anthupatoi, perhaps a remarkable reference to the fact that two men were conjointly exercising the functions of proconsul at this time (19:38)

39. the “regular” assembly, as the precise phrase is attested elsewhere (19:39)

40. use of precise ethnic designation, beroiaios (20:4)

41. employment of the ethnic term Asianos (20:4)

42. the implied recognition of the strategic importance assigned to this city of Troas (20:7ff.)

43. the danger of the coastal trip in this location (20:13) 44. the correct sequence of places (20:14-15)

45. the correct name of the city as a neuter plural (Patara) (21:1)

46. the appropriate route passing across the open sea south of Cyprus favored by persistent northwest winds (21:3)

47. the suitable distance between these cities (21:8)

48. a characteristically Jewish act of piety (21:24)

49. the Jewish law regarding Gentile use of the temple area (21:28) (Archaeological discoveries and quotations from Josephus confirm that Gentiles could be executed for entering the temple area. One inscription reads: “Let no Gentile enter within the balustrade and enclosure surrounding the sanctuary. Whoever is caught will be personally responsible for his consequent death.”2

50. the permanent stationing of a Roman cohort (chiliarch) at Antonia to suppress any disturbance at festival times (21:31)

51. the flight of steps used by the guards (21:31, 35)

52. the common way to obtain Roman citizenship at this time (22:28)

53. the tribune being impressed with Roman rather than Tarsian citizenship (22:29)

54. Ananias being high priest at this time (23:2)

55. Felix being governor at this time (23:34)

56. the natural stopping point on the way to Caesarea (23:31)

57. whose jurisdiction Cilicia was in at the time (23:34)

58. the provincial penal procedure of the time (24:1-9)

59. the name Porcius Festus, which agrees precisely with that given by Josephus (24:27)

60. the right of appeal for Roman citizens (25:11)

61. the correct legal formula (25:18)

62. the characteristic form of reference to the emperor at the time (25:26)

63. the best shipping lanes at the time (27:5)

64. the common bonding of Cilicia and Pamphylia (27:4)

65. the principal port to find a ship sailing to Italy (27:5-6)

66. the slow passage to Cnidus, in the face of the typical northwest wind (27:7)

67. the right route to sail, in view of the winds (27:7)

68. the locations of Fair Havens and the neighboring site of Lasea (27:8)

69. Fair Havens as a poorly sheltered roadstead (27:12)

70. a noted tendency of a south wind in these climes to back suddenly to a violent northeaster, the well-known gregale (27:13)

71. the nature of a square-rigged ancient ship, having no option but to be driven before a gale (27:15)

72. the precise place and name of this island (27:16)

73. the appropriate maneuvers for the safety of the ship in its particular plight (27:16)

74. the fourteenth night—a remarkable calculation, based inevitably on a compounding of estimates and probabilities, confirmed in the judgment of experienced Mediterranean navigators (27:27)

75. the proper term of the time for the Adriatic (27:27)

76. the precise term (Bolisantes) for taking soundings, and the correct depth of the water near Malta (27:28)

77. a position that suits the probable line of approach of a ship released to run before an easterly wind (27:39)

78. the severe liability on guards who permitted a prisoner to escape (27:42)

79. the local people and superstitions of the day (28:4-6)

80. the proper title protos tÓs nÓsou (28:7)

81. Rhegium as a refuge to await a southerly wind to carry them through the strait (28:13)

82. Appii Forum and Tres Tabernae as correctly placed stopping places on the Appian Way (28:15)

83. appropriate means of custody with Roman soldiers (28:16)

84. the conditions of imprisonment, living “at his own expense” (8:30-31)

Is there any doubt that Luke was an eyewitness to these events or at least had access to reliable eyewitness testimony? What more could he have done to prove his authenticity as a historian?

There are many scholarly papers on the travel narrative from Acts being taken from Homer. This is also a mainstream view.
In the book - Dennis R. MacDonald, Does the New Testament Imitate Homer? Four Cases from the Acts of the Apostles.
he analyzes 4 sections in depth:

1st: The visions of Cornelius and Peter (Acts 10, 11) and Iliad 2;

2nd: The farewell of Paul at Miletus (Acts 20) and Iliad 6;

3rd: The selection of Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1,15) and Iliad 7,123;

4th: The escape of Peter from prison (Acts 12) and Iliad 24.


A Yale author also wrote a book on Luke's use of Homer:
Does the New Testament Imitate Homer?: Four Cases from the Acts of the Apostles on JSTOR

 

[BilliardsBall]

A large part of your list comprised of location of places and sites, which don’t have much in term of details, because ancient authors of myths, legends, folklores and traditions often use real places too. Modern fictions, authors often use real locations of cities and landmarks, for setting of their narrations, don’t make the stories true.

The Acts saying they went from point A to B to C, etc, is not much of description at all.

But history isn’t about naming locations, but about being finding sources that can provide independent verification to stories.

For instance, in Acts 14;8-18, you have made several points about Lystra:



The event in Lystra were that people were going to offer sacrifices to Paul and Barnabas for healing a man who was born crippled and couldn’t walk, where they objected to the sacrifice.

That’s the event that need verification, not the language spoken in the city, or it was cult centre for both Zeus and Hermès.

Who was the man whom they allegedly healed? There is no name, so how do you confirm that this man is real, or that he was a crippled.

Other than Acts 14, there are no other texts that can independently collaborate the healing and offer and rejection of sacrifices at Lystra. No independent eyewitness' writing about what happened at Lystra.

That’s not history. It is story of miracle that you cannot verify, as the Acts is only source to healing man from Lystra. History is about events, not just places. Your list of places in the gospel are not history.

So your argument is "Sure, he got 84 points right, but we still need to a priori reject miracles."

Now, why would Luke be so accurate with trivial details like wind directions, water depths, and peculiar town names, but not be accurate when it comes to important events like miracles? In light of the fact that Luke has proven accurate with so many trivial details, it is nothing but pure anti-supernatural bias to say he’s not telling the truth about the miracles he records. As I have seen from skeptics many times, such a bias is illegitimate. This is a theistic world where miracles are possible. So it makes much more sense to believe Luke’s miracle accounts than to discount them. In other words, Luke’s credentials as a historian have been proven on so many points that it takes more faith not to believe his miracle accounts than to believe them.

You need less faith, sir!

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is just awful. You think god is sending miracle money to these financial planners while literally milllions of Christians in low income areas are starving, can't afford medicine, rent, people suffer decades of unending debt and work horrible jobs while ill? Oh and that's all getting worse.

7 million kids under the age of 11 die every year, many are Christians, their parents pleading with their god. Why don't those stats change?

what's worse is if you looked at any of those money senarios I'm sure you could easily understand why things worked out as they did. Possible in some cases pure exaggeration.
If a God produced money miracles why do Christian churches file bankruptcy at the same rate businesses do?

"Not only are religious organizations still filing under chapter 11. As in prior years, they continue to file under chapter 11 in line with fluctuations in consumer bankruptcy filings."
Churches Are Still Filing Bankruptcy - Credit Slips

The Bible always "works" and tithing Christians do not starve--the Bible promises adequate food and clothing for tithers. Many examples abound, you can even Google tithing and the '29 Depression for more.