The all-knowing/infallible/all-powerful god paradox

[DavyCrocket2003]

Time is a strange thing. I'm still trying to figure out if it's possible for God to know something, and yet still have free will. Here is a thought experiment I've thought of. Suppose you received a package through time. You don't know who it is from, but you know it is from the future. When that future time arrives, is the sender of the package forced to send it? Is there any free choice? Of course such a situation is impossible, I'm just trying to think about the effects on the present that knowledge of the future would have.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Time is a strange thing. I'm still trying to figure out if it's possible for God to know something, and yet still have free will.

Best of luck to you. It is not possible.

Here is a thought experiment I've thought of. Suppose you received a package through time. You don't know who it is from, but you know it is from the future. When that future time arrives, is the sender of the package forced to send it? Is there any free choice? Of course such a situation is impossible, I'm just trying to think about the effects on the present that knowledge of the future would have.

Well, i think so given that Marty McFly saw himself at the Lone Pine Mall.

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Nobody's considering my option? Is it because I don't believe in God or because you're trying to find a way to outsmart me? Or is my suggestion facepalmable?

GhK.

 

[JamieDD]

Nobody's considering my option? Is it because I don't believe in God or because you're trying to find a way to outsmart me? Or is my suggestion facepalmable?

GhK.

Well considering what you said... omniscience is paradoxical, to us. But if we say, hypothetically, that God is all the Christian Bible says he is, surely he is much beyond our understanding and so the very fact the he could exist or not is an argument we can neither prove nor disprove.

Just because we cannot understand how (a big issue, let's face it) works, such as omniscience (and predestination) is not reason for us to say it isn't so. If, for example, you couldn't understand why a certain physics equation works, you wouldn't just say "well it can't be true then, because I can't fathom this".

I hope I explained well enough. :areyoucra

 

[GiantHouseKey]

Well considering what you said... omniscience is paradoxical, to us. But if we say, hypothetically, that God is all the Christian Bible says he is, surely he is much beyond our understanding and so the very fact the he could exist or not is an argument we can neither prove nor disprove.

Just because we cannot understand how (a big issue, let's face it) works, such as omniscience (and predestination) is not reason for us to say it isn't so. If, for example, you couldn't understand why a certain physics equation works, you wouldn't just say "well it can't be true then, because I can't fathom this".

I hope I explained well enough. :areyoucra

Your explanation makes sense.
However, the opposite point is also applicable. 'Well, I don't really understand this so let's just say God did it'.

But like i've said, I have a possible explanation for the possibility of omniscience and free will - But it's very difficult for me to explain due to my limited knowledge of the topic myself. What a game.

GhK.

 

[JamieDD]

Your explanation makes sense.
However, the opposite point is also applicable. 'Well, I don't really understand this so let's just say God did it'.

But like i've said, I have a possible explanation for the possibility of omniscience and free will - But it's very difficult for me to explain due to my limited knowledge of the topic myself. What a game.

GhK.

Fair enough.

But, I think what you were referring to in your first paragraph was faith

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I think the simplest way to put it is, for instance, let's say that you had pancakes this morning for breakfast. You could of had eggs - you could of had cereal, but you had pancakes.

Can you now decide to have something different for breakfast this morning? Can you change it so you had eggs instead of pancakes for breakfast this morning? Can you make another choice about what you had for breakfast this morning other than the choice you made to have pancakes?

No.

This is what omniscience would be like in relation to every decision ever made by anyone, for all time. If god knows what you're going to do next year, it's exactly the same as if he was looking back on what you did last year. Time would have no meaning. Every event would already be known from one end of time to the other, so any perception of time would purely be an illusion.

You can't make a decision about something you did last year - the choice has already been made - just the same as if what you're going to do next year was known precisely. The choice would already be made.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Nobody's considering my option? Is it because I don't believe in God or because you're trying to find a way to outsmart me? Or is my suggestion facepalmable?

GhK.

Honestly, I didn't understand it. That's not an insult. It says more about me than your argument. I will try.

So, God knows not only the choice we will make, but all the possible choices as well. Don't we humans know that too? As for the 4th dimension stuff, I am not well versed in that type of thing. Sorry.

 

[JamieDD]

I think the simplest way to put it is, for instance, let's say that you had pancakes this morning for breakfast. You could of had eggs - you could of had cereal, but you had pancakes.

Can you now decide to have something different for breakfast this morning? Can you change it so you had eggs instead of pancakes for breakfast this morning? Can you make another choice about what you had for breakfast this morning other than the choice you made to have pancakes?

No.

This is what omniscience would be like in relation to every decision ever made by anyone, for all time. If god knows what you're going to do next year, it's exactly the same as if he was looking back on what you did last year. Time would have no meaning. Every event would already be known from one end of time to the other, so any perception of time would purely be an illusion.

You can't make a decision about something you did last year - the choice has already been made - just the same as if what you're going to do next year was known precisely. The choice would already be made.

Yeah, I agree with your point. God doesn't have this concept called time, he can see everything... but even still there is more to it in the complex theology called predestination, which requires someone with superhuman powers to explain well!

 

[Wandered Off]

You can't make a decision about something you did last year - the choice has already been made - just the same as if what you're going to do next year was known precisely. The choice would already be made.

Yep. If the future can be known before your action, that means it must already exist in some form. This is what hoses free will. Your own unawareness of the future creates the illusion of choice.

 

[doppelganger]

Yep. If the future can be known before your action, that means it must already exist in some form. This is what hoses free will. Your own unawareness of the future creates the illusion of choice.

Yes. And the arrival and collapse of probabilities as things are determined creates the illusion of time. As I mentioned on an earlier thread, in a causal universe, a complete knowledge of the past IS a complete knowledge of the present and the future.

The lack of a complete knowledge (i.e. what we see and know in our own limited univreses of information) is where it may seem like the universe is non-causal and contains such things as "free will" and "choice."

 

[Storm]

Yep. If the future can be known before your action, that means it must already exist in some form. This is what hoses free will. Your own unawareness of the future creates the illusion of choice.

I still don't agree with this. Foreknowledge in and of itself does not negate free will.

Now, throw in omnipotence, and it's another story.

 

[Wandered Off]

I still don't agree with this. Foreknowledge in and of itself does not negate free will.

Exactly. Foreknowledge is the effect of a future that exists, not the cause.

 

[Storm]

Exactly. Foreknowledge is the effect of a future that exists, not the cause.

I don't accept that.

 

[Wandered Off]

Yes. And the arrival and collapse of probabilities as things are determined creates the illusion of time.

With a 'pre-existent future', would there be any probabilities between zero and one?

 

[Wandered Off]

I don't accept that.

Storm you are so stubborn!

 

[doppelganger]

With a 'pre-existent future', would there be any probabilities between zero and one?

Only where the information is incomplete are there probabilities.

 

[Wandered Off]

Only where the information is incomplete are there probabilities.

So like everything else, it's a matter of perspective.

 

[doppelganger]

So like everything else, it's a matter of perspective.

But of course. It's a matter of thought engaging the limited information it has incompletely stored about the universe, and trying to make predictive models. And the information thought has to work with depends on the databases it has access to.

 

[Storm]

Storm you are so stubborn!

Well, would it be inappropriate to explain my perspective? My theology is a bit off-topic, as it's pretty different from that specified in the OP, but it might help you understand my perspective.